Need help - Helix Native sounds worse than free VSTs (muffled and muddy)

[the_trooper_emi]

Hello everyone

I downloaded Helix Native to try it out. Two days later I still can't make it sound good! My biggest issue is that it sounds very muffled, like you're playing with blankets over the box. I've tried different cabinets, combinations, mics, amps, reverbs... I just can't get it to sound like it's in the same room with me.

 

Here is a comparison I did:

https://vocaroo.com/i/s1NubH3LoyOF

 

First clip is my free VSTs and IRs, second one is factory preset "Brit 2204", and the third one is my attempt. First one sounds like there's and amp in the room, other two sound like I'm listening my upstairs neighbor playing.

 

I'm attaching my preset so you can take a look, what am I doing wrong?

 

Or am I going the wrong way about it? I saw Glenn from SpectreSoundStudios explaining how he records with box covered up. Is that what's going on here? Is Helix native geared towards recording and sounding good in the mix?

 

My second issue is sustain, I can't get a low gain long sustain to work. Again, this is something I'm able to get with free VSTs but struggle with Helix.

Again, here are two clips:

https://vocaroo.com/i/s1Q3nT5sdrqe

 

First one is my free VSTs long sustain one, the second one is Helix. I know I can do it with compression (I have it on one block in my preset), but all compressors that Helix offers seem to, besides adding sustain, kill the character of the sound, they just dull it somehow.

 

Any help here, am I using the compressor the wrong way?

 

Thanks in advance!

[soundog]

The first sample set sounds to me like differences in EQ and volume settings. The second sample set sounds like the gain (and a compressor?) is turned way up on the free VST -- listen to the noise level when the sustain fades. You should be able to tweak things to get what you want, but there are lots of variables.

 

There are some good tips in this thread: http://line6.com/support/topic/31009-tips-from-the-vets-for-new-user/

 

 

[the_trooper_emi]

The first sample set sounds to me like differences in EQ and volume settings.

 

Actually I think I figured this one out, it's reverb, the free one I'm using is much more "spacey". And since I'm playing through headphones exclusively, that is what I need. But I'm getting good results with one trick i dug out on this forum - two IRs with two different reverbs and Optical trem at the very end.

 

 

The second sample set sounds like the gain (and a compressor?) is turned way up on the free VST -- listen to the noise level when the sustain fades.

 

 

You are correct, compressor is turned all way up. But the thing is that it's "transparent", i.e. it has minimal effect on the sound. Helix compressors all behave like you turned tone knob down, at least that's what I'm getting which is why I asked if I'm doing something wrong with them.

[Doug6String]

I've had a Helix rack for about a year and Native just about since it came out.  I get great tones, and a huge variety of them from both.  As far as I can hear, they sound identical using the same presets and guitars.  If you are new to Helix, there is typically a learning curve.  Many of us struggled at first and the Helix forum really was the key to getting great tone, but it didn't happen over night.

 

Not everyone would agree, but a lot of us rarely use the factory presets and we create our own from scratch.  That's a good place to start to get the tone you want.   I do very little tweaking (LA Studio Comp is my favorite) and I don't have issues.  But maybe you're being more creative than I am with compression.

 

Soundog is really right on "lots" of variables!  It can be too many unless you have a good idea on what you are trying to do and how to get there.

 

I use Native for recording (just for fun) all the time and it's amazing.  

[the_trooper_emi]

Not everyone would agree, but a lot of us rarely use the factory presets and we create our own from scratch.  That's a good place to start to get the tone you want.

 

That's how I started, but I didn't get far :D Then I downloaded several presets from customtone and a couple of them were helpful enough to point me in the right direction. So for now I'm calling distorted tones done, I'm happy with what I got and now it really does sound a lot better and fuller then my free VSTs.

 

But clean is still a mystery, free Emisary amp and free IRs, sound leagues better then what I'm able to get from Helix.

[Doug6String]

That's how I started, but I didn't get far :D Then I downloaded several presets from customtone and a couple of them were helpful enough to point me in the right direction. So for now I'm calling distorted tones done, I'm happy with what I got and now it really does sound a lot better and fuller then my free VSTs.

 

But clean is still a mystery, free Emisary amp and free IRs, sound leagues better then what I'm able to get from Helix.

Your mystery is a mystery to me!  Later tonight when I play, I'll pick out some of my favorite clean tones and send you the amp settings.  Maybe that'll help.  I had trouble with clean tones at first too and definitely had to tweak amp settings.  A lot of Helix users like their cabs, but I'm an IR user and find they help me get the tone I want, from dist to clean.  There's a lot of "discussion" on the Helix forum between the cab people and the IR people about which is "better."  The one thing I'm confident saying is that they are different and really color the sound in different ways.

[Doug6String]

I'm attaching some pics below of some of my favorite clean amp settings.  Some of these amps have a lot of snapshots in the preset that are crunchy and dist too, like Cartographer.  I also realized when looking at this that I have EQ-ed every preset I have.  It's such a natural thing to do, I really don't think about it.  However, I tried a few without the EQ (I use the 10 band graphic eq) and most of my presets sound muffled.  Back to Soundog - he mentioned in EQ in his post.

 

I couldn't attach two other pics - Cartographer and Archetype Clean, but both of these have excellent clean sounds (for my taste) with some EQ.

[Triryche]

Another thing to consider is your audio interface and getting the correct level of your dry signal into Helix Native. 

Presets should sound identical between Helix hardware and Helix Native when using the Helix as your audio interface.

Also there are input impedance settings on the Helix hardware that can affect your tone. 

[soundog]

All of these are great tips! And speaking of tips, the Helix community forum is full of great ideas. I keep a text file of user quotes and ideas from the forum that I can reference or try  later. Below are the quotes I have in my section on "Clean". (BTW, I just added Doug6Strings clean amp setting snapshots to try out.) Note that these are all different user opinions (usually each paragraph below is from a separate user) ... but all ideas are worthy of experimentation..

-------------------------------

 

Cleanest amp in there is the JC 120. Some others get very clean, too, if you take the master to 5, channel to max, and gain very low. Like the Twin especially. Archon clean channel, Soldano Clean channel, and Matchless 1 are faves of mine.

 

use the "channel volume" of the amp model to adjust the overall volume without changing the tone. Drive and master volume will change the tone. Channel volume will allow you to balance the volume between clean and driven amp tones. 

 

I ALWAYS use a patch that allows me to go from clean to edge to dirt to big. Every time. Its simple. Right now my choice of amps for this are the Plexi Trem Bright channel, Cartographer, and Matchless Channel 1 mainly, but I have a bunch of amps I love that work for this. Keep the Amp Master volume at 5 (or thereabouts) or below on those of these which have a lot of power amp distortion.

 

Turn Sag all the way down. (personal preference) Always have the Input Pad ON.

 

Set up your tone so that at clean, it's clean when your guitar is on 7 or 8, edge of breakup above that. Learn to use that guitar volume. It will change your life. I also set my guitar tone at about 8, because I like it better there. YMMV.

 

Set a foot switch to go from the base clean tone to a dirty amp tone. You may be able to do this with just the gain and the Channel Volume, but I often add midshipmen's and take away bass and presence. Set another foot switch to add a good gain pedal. I use Teemah or Minotaur mostly, occasionally Valve Driver. Now, you can add that to your clean tone, or to your dirty tone, and with the volume control on your guitar, if you do this right, you can get just about any sound in the known universe with one patch.

[the_trooper_emi]

Thanks everyone, I got close to what I want with Soldano clean model and a lot of tweaking, and three EQs, and two different IRs and two different reverbs :D

[tommasoferrarese]

I have noticed that input gain must be kept way lower than what I was used to when using native, reflecting what actually happens in the hardware Helix. Strumming very heavily on my telecaster neck pickup I get to peak at -12 to -24 dB, which seems very low, unless you get used to hit -12 as max peak for every other track in your DAW.. you’re gonna have better response from a lot of plugins as well, if you begin to work with all that headroom, as a side effect..

[soundog]

Yes!!! Using -12 as your peak on the input is of primary importance on this thing. Bang your guitar hard and watch the input meter closely before recording. The last thing you want is any digital clipping interfering with what you're hearing. You also need a decent audio interface with HI-Z input capabilities.

 

Then for clean tones start with your amp Master volume at around 5, Channel volume maxed, and Gain dialed down low. Adjust your guitar volume/tone/pickup, and your Helix amp Gain & EQ as needed for the song). Get all of that right before adding other Helix blocks and FX stuff...

 

...by the way, I have to put in a plug for a great little reverb plug: Liquidsonic's Seventh Heaven (emulation of the Bricasti M7). The basic version (30 reverb selections) is only $69, and it has stunning plates, halls, rooms, and chambers for the money. I rarely use the reverbs in Helix Native, except for stuff like the springs or particle-verb.