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DecayingWings

Helix LT sucks. Badly.

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On 1/5/2018 at 5:11 PM, mikah912 said:

 

Might help if you had specific sonic criticism. Saying "it sucks...tried this and that sucks....tried that and it sucks too" is not at all helpful. 

 

What is not working for you? Be specific. There are a kazillion great metal Helix patches and major artists using it. I wouldn't necessarily say it's user error, but merely user unfamiliarity. Help us to help YOU to get familiar.

not too be annoying, but which 'major artists' actually use the helix for high gain sounds??

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1 minute ago, niarolf said:

not too be annoying, but which 'major artists' actually use the helix for high gain sounds??

 

What's your reason for asking?  Are you genuinely wondering if it can be done, or is a prestige thing where if we point to an artist that has clearly succeeded in it working they won't be "major" enough to pass the test? 

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10 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

 

What's your reason for asking?  Are you genuinely wondering if it can be done, or is a prestige thing where if we point to an artist that has clearly succeeded in it working they won't be "major" enough to pass the test? 

I have a helix myself, but i think i'll return it, it just doesn't cut it in terms of EQ, warmth and feel in general.

 

I've been looking up the forum here today because i also have problems with helix native in reaper.

 

So after i came across this thread here and read this comment i was genuinely interested what pro's are using the helix for high gain sounds and not just for the FX.

 

I know one guy called Vinai Trinateepakdee who makes the helix sound badass and plays stadiums and on Thai TV shows etc, but he doesn't use high gain sounds.

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20 minutes ago, niarolf said:

I have a helix myself, but i think i'll return it, it just doesn't cut it in terms of EQ, warmth and feel in general.

 

I've been looking up the forum here today because i also have problems with helix native in reaper.

 

So after i came across this thread here and read this comment i was genuinely interested what pro's are using the helix for high gain sounds and not just for the FX.

 

I know one guy called Vinai Trinateepakdee who makes the helix sound badass and plays stadiums and on Thai TV shows etc, but he doesn't use high gain sounds.

 

I guess he's not a "major" star, but the guy has millions and millions of view on his Youtube channel...

 

 

Then, of course, there's 12 Foot Ninja... I think all the guitars on their last album were Helix... Sounds amazing to me.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, niarolf said:

I have a helix myself, but i think i'll return it, it just doesn't cut it in terms of EQ, warmth and feel in general.

 

I've been looking up the forum here today because i also have problems with helix native in reaper.

 

So after i came across this thread here and read this comment i was genuinely interested what pro's are using the helix for high gain sounds and not just for the FX.

 

I know one guy called Vinai Trinateepakdee who makes the helix sound badass and plays stadiums and on Thai TV shows etc, but he doesn't use high gain sounds.

 

I mean, ultimately if you don't like something you don't like something. There's no changing that. 

 

However, I think Jeff Loomis is a great example of a high gain player that has used Helix on some of his recent stuff. I also think Twelve Foot Ninja has clearly demonstrated high gain works well. 

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35 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

 

I mean, ultimately if you don't like something you don't like something. There's no changing that. 

 

However, I think Jeff Loomis is a great example of a high gain player that has used Helix on some of his recent stuff. I also think Twelve Foot Ninja has clearly demonstrated high gain works well. 

Cool!!

 

the thing i'm struggling the most with is getting rid of harshness without making it sound dull, i'm not sure how other people do it, but the high gain tones seem to lack mid-focus

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13 minutes ago, niarolf said:

Cool!!

 

the thing i'm struggling the most with is getting rid of harshness without making it sound dull, i'm not sure how other people do it, but the high gain tones seem to lack mid-focus

What are you hooking the Helix up to? What's in your chain? What guitar are plugging in to it? I've run my Helix through the returns of several nice high-gain amps (ENGL, MESA, MARSHALL) owned by friends just for lollipops and giggles and we've never had too hard of a time getting either spot-on or really, really close (as in different, but not bad) to matching the preamp tones through the same power amp. I run straight to monitors/PA for my live tones with both of my bands without any lack of mids or anything that's too harsh (unless I want it). Just like any other current-gen modeler, all the sounds are in there, there's just different paths to get them out.

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2 hours ago, niarolf said:

I have a helix myself, but i think i'll return it, it just doesn't cut it in terms of EQ, warmth and feel in general....

 

...the thing i'm struggling the most with is getting rid of harshness without making it sound dull, i'm not sure how other people do it, but the high gain tones seem to lack mid-focus

 

How do you monitor your Helix? If you monitor it in different ways for different situations (eg: home, rehearsal, live) we need to know that as well. 

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2 hours ago, gunpointmetal said:

What are you hooking the Helix up to? What's in your chain? What guitar are plugging in to it? I've run my Helix through the returns of several nice high-gain amps (ENGL, MESA, MARSHALL) owned by friends just for lollipops and giggles and we've never had too hard of a time getting either spot-on or really, really close (as in different, but not bad) to matching the preamp tones through the same power amp. I run straight to monitors/PA for my live tones with both of my bands without any lack of mids or anything that's too harsh (unless I want it). Just like any other current-gen modeler, all the sounds are in there, there's just different paths to get them out.

 

1 hour ago, codamedia said:

 

How do you monitor your Helix? If you monitor it in different ways for different situations (eg: home, rehearsal, live) we need to know that as well. 

 

I monitor with studio heaphones and logitech speakers, but i also bought a FRFR for rehearsal, so i've been trying that out with my helix and the FRFR sounds the worst so far, the headphones sound best, but it still doesn't sound as i expected it would.

 

the guitar i've been using most is a ESP m400m with custom 5 and Jazz pickups, medium output.

 

So far i like the placater 'frdman' model the most but the cabs are probably where the problem is, especially through my FRFR it sounds "harsh and digital" for lack of better description.

 

I have the HX stomp so i run a stereo TRS to XLR in the FRFR

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26 minutes ago, niarolf said:

 

 

I monitor with studio heaphones and logitech speakers, but i also bought a FRFR for rehearsal, so i've been trying that out with my helix and the FRFR sounds the worst so far, the headphones sound best, but it still doesn't sound as i expected it would.

 

the guitar i've been using most is a ESP m400m with custom 5 and Jazz pickups, medium output.

 

So far i like the placater 'frdman' model the most but the cabs are probably where the problem is, especially through my FRFR it sounds "harsh and digital" for lack of better description.

 

I have the HX stomp so i run a stereo TRS to XLR in the FRFR

 

Well, I love the stock cabs, but with your complaint, have you tried IRs?

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24 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

 

Well, I love the stock cabs, but with your complaint, have you tried IRs?

yeah i did try some celestion and ownhammer IR's, not better per se, I guess i'll try a parametric EQ last in the chain

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7 hours ago, niarolf said:

, "Helix LT sucks. Badly." "harsh and digital"

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Proove it please. Get your favorite amps, connect them to reactive load and compare with the corresponding Helix, Fractal, Kemper models using the same monitoring device. Maybe all digital recordings sounds "harsh and digital" to you and you should avoid the sound recorded and propagated this way?
Whatever - maybe just try to isolate your problem instead of sharing alerting, sucking assertions. ;) It feels very harsh and digital to me. :D

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2 hours ago, zolko60 said:

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Proove it please. Get your favorite amps, connect them to reactive load and compare with the corresponding Helix, Fractal, Kemper models using the same monitoring device. Maybe all digital recordings sounds "harsh and digital" to you and you should avoid the sound recorded and propagated this way?
Whatever - maybe just try to isolate your problem instead of sharing alerting, sucking assertions. ;) It feels very harsh and digital to me. :D

 

 

Calm down buddy, this thread was not created by me, i never said: "Helix LT sucks. Badly." 

 

I did make another thread asking about my issues with the helix.

 

Maybe it's user error or I have a faulty unit, but it's not living up to fractal standards so far.

 

If you can't help me out please take your passive aggressiveness somewhere else, I wonder why helix fans can be so toxic and there is none of that in the fractal forums, why do you feel the need to aggressively defend your favorite product? If it was as good as you say you shouldn't get so triggered over it.

 

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11 hours ago, niarolf said:

I monitor with studio heaphones and logitech speakers, but i also bought a FRFR for rehearsal, so i've been trying that out with my helix and the FRFR sounds the worst so far, the headphones sound best, but it still doesn't sound as i expected it would.

 

Next question... how do you setup your tones? Also - what brand of FRFR do you have?

 

Best practice is to setup your tones on the device you will use live... at the volume you will use it live. 

 

EG: If you setup your tones on the headphones or logitechs, they are not going to translate to an FRFR.... therefore the FRFR will get the blame. You don't setup a high gain amp on a set of headphones or computer speakers.... don't do it with a modeler. 

 

15 hours ago, niarolf said:

the thing i'm struggling the most with is getting rid of harshness without making it sound dull, i'm not sure how other people do it, but the high gain tones seem to lack mid-focus

 

Generally speaking, this is exactly what happens when a tone is developed at lower volumes than it should be.... it's the Fletcher-Munson curve.  At lower volumes we tend to push lows and highs to make it "appear" louder (same thing a loudness switch does on a stereo) but when we put it through something at louder volumes the tone will get thin/harsh and possibly even boomy. It will be too loud but you won't hear it... as you say, it will lack focus. 

 

Can you share one of your patches... it might make it easier for us to make some specific suggestions. 

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12 hours ago, niarolf said:

 

 

I monitor with studio heaphones and logitech speakers, but i also bought a FRFR for rehearsal, so i've been trying that out with my helix and the FRFR sounds the worst so far, the headphones sound best, but it still doesn't sound as i expected it would.

 

the guitar i've been using most is a ESP m400m with custom 5 and Jazz pickups, medium output.

 

So far i like the placater 'frdman' model the most but the cabs are probably where the problem is, especially through my FRFR it sounds "harsh and digital" for lack of better description.

 

I have the HX stomp so i run a stereo TRS to XLR in the FRFR

Definitely as suggested, build your live volume patches at live volume. Even with a "full-range" monitoring source like headphones or PC speakers (which are probably going to sound awful for guitar tones by themselves anyways) once you start getting over talking loud/shouting volume the EQ character is going to change. Just like with an amp, what sounds good at bedroom volumes is gonna fall apart in the room at band volumes. I run mine through a couple different monitors in various projects (EV ZLX12P, Mackie Thump 12) and I don't think there's anything lacking in the mid-range. If you do have the time to upload a patch I'm sure a couple people wouldn't mind taking a look or adjusting it to try something different. IME all the tones are in there. 

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59 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

Next question... how do you setup your tones? Also - what brand of FRFR do you have?

 

Best practice is to setup your tones on the device you will use live... at the volume you will use it live. 

 

EG: If you setup your tones on the headphones or logitechs, they are not going to translate to an FRFR.... therefore the FRFR will get the blame. You don't setup a high gain amp on a set of headphones or computer speakers.... don't do it with a modeler. 

 

 

Generally speaking, this is exactly what happens when a tone is developed at lower volumes than it should be.... it's the Fletcher-Munson curve.  At lower volumes we tend to push lows and highs to make it "appear" louder (same thing a loudness switch does on a stereo) but when we put it through something at louder volumes the tone will get thin/harsh and possibly even boomy. It will be too loud but you won't hear it... as you say, it will lack focus. 

 

Can you share one of your patches... it might make it easier for us to make some specific suggestions. 

 

I got a Behringer B112D for live/rehearsal use, It's at home now so i can dial in patches on it.

 

About the Fletcher-Munson thing, it seems like everything is extremely scooped by default and I don't know how to get a 'natural' sounding midrange without the thing starting to sound like a pignose.

 

"lacking focus" is a good way to say it.

 

Here's a patch 

 

Fried+V30.hlx

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1 minute ago, niarolf said:

 

I got a Behringer B112D for live/rehearsal use, It's at home now so i can dial in patches on it.

 

About the Fletcher-Munson thing, it seems like everything is extremely scooped by default and I don't know how to get a 'natural' sounding midrange without the thing starting to sound like a pignose.

 

"lacking focus" is a good way to say it.

 

Here's a patch 

 

Fried+V30.hlx

Depending on what version of that Behringer speaker you have, I wouldn't expect to get much from it. We have a pair of 10s and a pair of 12s in our practice space and they're fine for music, but the slope of the crossover between the tweeter and the woofer seems kind of wide and there is a pretty noticeable dip in the 1Khz-2.5Khz area. ~700Hz to 3kHz is kinda where a lot of guitar amps have that "focus" and the friedman is definitely closer to the higher end of that. That crossover area on some speakers (the Altos, too) is definitely a hurdle with  FRFR, because its in that range of the guitar's "voice".   

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8 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

Depending on what version of that Behringer speaker you have, I wouldn't expect to get much from it. We have a pair of 10s and a pair of 12s in our practice space and they're fine for music, but the slope of the crossover between the tweeter and the woofer seems kind of wide and there is a pretty noticeable dip in the 1Khz-2.5Khz area. ~700Hz to 3kHz is kinda where a lot of guitar amps have that "focus" and the friedman is definitely closer to the higher end of that. That crossover area on some speakers (the Altos, too) is definitely a hurdle with  FRFR, because its in that range of the guitar's "voice".   

There's also the simple logic: Put a higher end sound product through one of the very cheapest speakers you can buy and the former is not the weak link in the chain.

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I don't know that I've ever heard a Behringer speaker that didn't sound harsh... We unfortunately have the smaller version of those as monitors at our church, and, yeah, I would never consider those to be an accurate representation of my tone. They almost always sound harsh and thin. I can use them as monitors to hear myself, but they aren't anything like reference monitors.

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38 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

Depending on what version of that Behringer speaker you have, I wouldn't expect to get much from it. We have a pair of 10s and a pair of 12s in our practice space and they're fine for music, but the slope of the crossover between the tweeter and the woofer seems kind of wide and there is a pretty noticeable dip in the 1Khz-2.5Khz area. ~700Hz to 3kHz is kinda where a lot of guitar amps have that "focus" and the friedman is definitely closer to the higher end of that. That crossover area on some speakers (the Altos, too) is definitely a hurdle with  FRFR, because its in that range of the guitar's "voice".   

That's fair, but the problem exists also with headphones, studio monitors, and i often record things to hear how they sound in context with other instruments, where the lack of focus/midrange becomes obvious.

 

I can return the behringer and get a more expensive FRFR but i won't do that until i can get the helix to sound pleasing with any kind of speaker/headphones, if amplitube can do it, than surely helix must be able too?

 

Btw I've ran a tech 21 blonde straight into a Alto TX210 (which you claim suffers from the same problem) and the warmth and focus was there without any of the negative things I mentioned, so i doubt the problem here is the FRFR

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At the end of the day, some gear just doesn't jive with some people. If you spend too much time struggling with the gear and not enough time actually playing, that's no good for anyone. I'm the same way with Orange cabs and Mesa rectifier amps. I hear other people getting great sounds out of them, but I feel like I'm fighting with the gear every time ive used either of those things. IF you give it a good go and it doesn't work, you just gotta find the thing that keeps you playing. 

There's also the caveat that a direct rig will NEVER sound like a cab in the room unless you either make your own far-field IRs of a cab you like or you use an actual guitar cab. I know a few guys who love the "studio tones" for jamming at home, but absolutely hate even great sounding direct tones playing at high volumes. There is definitely a tangible difference in sound and feel depending on your output system, no matter how good the amp modeling is.

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17 hours ago, niarolf said:

Cool!!

 

the thing i'm struggling the most with is getting rid of harshness without making it sound dull, i'm not sure how other people do it, but the high gain tones seem to lack mid-focus

Try here, if those presets dont work for you, helix is not for you, https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4r7gucctc4ydkye/AACzuVidRrsSbORyqG72fpwSa?dl=0

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If any product was the absolute best solution for every single user (in any product segment) it would be the only thing on the market.

Let it go, get something that works FOR YOU!

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7 minutes ago, PeterHamm said:

If any product was the absolute best solution for every single user (in any product segment) it would be the only thing on the market.

Let it go, get something that works FOR YOU!

 

well i can at least give it a fair chance by trying other people's recommendations, but i fear i'll return it eventually.

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You can't talk yourself into liking stuff, don't care what it is....light beer, cinnamon flavored dental floss, Canada ;)...you either like it, or you don't.  And when you start with the preconceived notion that the product in question is inferior to one or more of its competitors, the battle is over before it starts.

 

I don't like Les Pauls. Don't like the scale length, and the body's ergonomics just don't work for me. So I stopped trying. It's a shame, because it's a great sound.... but I made my peace with it years ago. 

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On 1/5/2018 at 7:34 AM, DecayingWings said:

Been playing guitar nearly 30 years and I teach guitar for living, so I'm no beginner with this stuff.

 

Any suggestions ...?

 

With this there's literally nobody that can help you at all and whatever discussion will be frustrating and unproductive. Those 30 years seem to have been wasted if you can't even describe the nature of your problem, how you're evaluating it etc... take a step back and reframe the problem in a way that we can actually help you.

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1 hour ago, BlueD said:

 

With this there's literally nobody that can help you at all and whatever discussion will be frustrating and unproductive. Those 30 years seem to have been wasted if you can't even describe the nature of your problem, how you're evaluating it etc... take a step back and reframe the problem in a way that we can actually help you.

 

NOTE EVERYBODY! DecayingWings' problem was solved by PM from another forum user. It happens a lot on all forums, but just a remender - PLEASE read the thread before posting!

 

MODERATOR - As Niarolf has started a new thread to address HIS problem, can this one be locked? The somewhat offensive title will otherwise continue to draw comments FOREVER!

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2 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

NOTE EVERYBODY! DecayingWings' problem was solved by PM from another forum user. It happens a lot on all forums, but just a remender - PLEASE read the thread before posting!

 

MODERATOR - As Niarolf has started a new thread to address HIS problem, can this one be locked? The somewhat offensive title will otherwise continue to draw comments FOREVER!

 

True, though it always makes me smile and laugh a little because it reminds me of Gauntlet.

 

"Great warrior needs food . . . BADLY."

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I bet it was the lack of a tuner in the editor..

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25 minutes ago, spikey said:

I bet it was the lack of a tuner in the editor..

 

Of course! That MUST be it!

And since the upcoming Linux version of HX Edit has a tuner in it, everybody's sucky midrange problems will be solved!

BRILLIANT!

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11 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

NOTE EVERYBODY! DecayingWings' problem was solved by PM from another forum user. It happens a lot on all forums, but just a remender - PLEASE read the thread before posting!

 

MODERATOR - As Niarolf has started a new thread to address HIS problem, can this one be locked? The somewhat offensive title will otherwise continue to draw comments FOREVER!

 

That's what we need! Shut it down!  Mr. Moderator,  please rescue us from this terribly upsetting exchange of ideas... somebody might get offended. Which way to the safe space? And be sure to have my crayons and emotional support tortoise ready, just in case. Enormous reptiles are the only thing that soothe my fraying nerves. ;) 

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23 hours ago, niarolf said:

That's fair, but the problem exists also with headphones, studio monitors,

 

FYI: Earlier in the thread you said you use Logitech speakers.... please don't confuse those as studio monitors. 

 

So far we have...

Headphones with no mention of make or model

Logitech "Studio Monitors"

Behringer "FRFR"

 

IMO the reason for a lack of focus in the tone is obvious. 

 

 

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23 hours ago, niarolf said:

 

well i can at least give it a fair chance by trying other people's recommendations, but i fear i'll return it eventually.

You'd be better off returning your Logitech speakers and crappy Behringer FRFR...

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C'mon guys, we all know that when comparing a raw guitar tone to a mixed/mastered tone in the context of a song its gotta sound exactly like the tone or something is wrong with the hardware. There's definitely no reason that lollipop computer speakers and a lollipop FRFR monitor shouldn't be able to reproduce exactly a tone from a recording as it sounds in a full mastered mix with who knows what kind of post production. This is all super common knowledge guys. Geez.

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49 minutes ago, PeterHamm said:

You'd be better off returning your Logitech speakers and crappy Behringer FRFR...

 

 

1 hour ago, codamedia said:

 

FYI: Earlier in the thread you said you use Logitech speakers.... please don't confuse those as studio monitors. 

 

So far we have...

Headphones with no mention of make or model

Logitech "Studio Monitors"

Behringer "FRFR"

 

IMO the reason for a lack of focus in the tone is obvious. 

 

 

Why is it that I can hear great tone coming out of those logitech speakers and my headphones, but never when i use the helix? (the behringer doesn't sound good with anything, that's definitely going back)

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Honestly, if the problem were the logitech speakers you would probably hate the Axe sounds as well. 

 

I would generally agree that logitech speakers probably aren't solid items for doing music, BUT we're talking about youtube videos here, and both the Axe and the Helix are going through the same system so whatever the system's deficits both products are getting equal treatment. 

 

I think the odds of buying a very expensive mixing setup and it solving your problems are near null. 

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On 3/27/2019 at 9:58 AM, niarolf said:

 

well i can at least give it a fair chance by trying other people's recommendations, but i fear i'll return it eventually.

What guitar? What pickups? Is the input pad activated? There are so many variable to "nailing" someone else's tone. Even if I had the EXACT tone as what you're looking for, if your gear is different than mine, or you play with a heavier/lighter touch, or your input levels are louder/quieter its not going to be EXACT when you play through it. At this point it would seem you're trying to NOT solve a problem and blame everything besides the only consistent variable. 

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1 hour ago, niarolf said:

Why is it that I can hear great tone coming out of those logitech speakers and my headphones, but never when i use the helix?

 

It's a deep subject that can be debated forever with zero resolution :) 

The difference is between "listening" and "creating". You can listen to a finished album on a budget set of speakers but that album could not be created on that budget set of speakers.

 

I find the same to be true when setting up tones. 

  1. When you use good speakers (in a proper environment and volume) to setup your tones, your tones will translate back to budget speakers and volume levels with grace.
  2. When you use budget speaker to setup your tones, you will over correct the deficiencies. You are not likely to ever get the tone you really want, and when heard back on better systems your over corrections will be exposed... often with negative results. 

 

1 hour ago, Kilrahi said:

BUT we're talking about youtube videos here, and both the Axe and the Helix are going through the same system so whatever the system's deficits both products are getting equal treatment. 

 

I don't disagree with the principle, but I do think this is an over simplification of what is really happening. 

 

Did you listen to some of the videos on both threads? Do you hear the same things he is hearing? When "niarolf" hears thin, someone else believes it's thick and warm. So what gives? 

 

As I stated elsewhere, I do not question niarolf's ears.... I don't doubt they he is hearing a deficiency. But why don't all of us hear it, and why do some of us hear it in reverse? Personal taste can account for what people like or don't like, but it can't make one person hear "thin and harsh" while the other hears "thick and warm". That is in the delivery... aka, the speakers. 

 

IMO - you need to start with a trustworthy monitoring environment... and based on that I believe niarolf does not have speakers he should trust for creating and monitoring his tones. 

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1 minute ago, codamedia said:

 

I don't disagree with the principle, but I do think this is an over simplification of what is really happening. Did you listen to some of the videos on both threads? Do you hear the same things he is hearing? When "niarolf" hears thin, someone else believes it's thick and warm. So what gives? 

 

 

To be clear, I don't hear ANY of the problems he hears. I tend to chalk the problems up to the weirdness that is the unreliability of the human condition in general - but you have some great insight in the above. Perhaps I'm dismissing his concerns too quickly. 

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