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I'm really interested in this update... but I've barely scratched the surface of 2.30! Is there a Zeno's Paradox related to firmware updates?

😂

 

I’m with you there. The only thing I’ve used in 2.30 is the SP Comp. Ha!

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Truth is, we hired a new DSP guy (not on the normal Helix team, so it didn't take away from sustained development) and he needed a project to learn our tools. Porting M-Class models to HX was the clear winner.

 

 

So ya hired a new guy to port over old stuff and left all the old guys on Helix to add and fix the new stuff.... Makes sense to me.  ;)

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Truth is, we hired a new DSP guy (not on the normal Helix team, so it didn't take away from sustained development) and he needed a project to learn our tools. Porting M-Class models to HX was the clear winner.

I say: great Strategic HR management 😊

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This is important: We never have release dates for firmware updates. We keep fixing things until there's nothing of note left to fix. We don't know when that point in time is until it happens, and then you guys get the update a couple hours later. That's all there is to it.

 

If you don't know "when that point in time it happens", you should not use the word "SOON". That is not a fair way to tease your user base.

 

The software company I work for, we do use "SOON" when the build is on the ramp for the release. Works pretty good. ;)

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Mr. Igloo could you give us a time how long could it take. Within February or later?

Would be nice ;-)

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I'm very happy with where all of my go-to patches are with the present offerings, I play more than I tweak lately, but I look very forward to incorporating the new reverbs and to checking out the Lonestar model!

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Stoked for this update! Loads of new toys to play with but still no midi sync for the looper???

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plumber, on 26 Jan 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:snapback.png




It would be interesting to know if the legacy effects (thank you Line 6 for these) sound any better via Helix improved AD/DA converters than those in the M series?




They do.


 


Dear DI... would you be so kind to give any details about this "improvement" as to the extent of it?


Thanks in advance.


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If you kiddies don't go to bed, Santa ain't coming...

 

It'll get here when it gets here. You'd think we were all unable to turn the damn thing on until the magical update arrives...

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^^^ This.

 

What exactly are you going to do or not do depending on that answer?

 

As a software developer myself, I VASTLY prefer the DI/Line 6 approach over arbitrary deadlines. No matter what anyone says or wishes, you don't actually know when it'll be done until all key features are there, and all important (tricky word that) functionality has been sufficiently (another tricky word) tested and works as expected.

 

To put it differently, if the dev team doesn't think it's ready, I doubt you actually want it. Hounding them doesn't make it soup, it just makes their lives unpleasant.

 

So I say huzzah for the care, effort and craftsmanship Line 6 has consistently shown with the Helix, and I'm excited for the new release, whenever it arrives.

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Hounding them doesn't make it soup, it just makes their lives unpleasant.

 

 

Amen...but it'll never stop. We've all been conditioned to believe that we have a right to free stuff on demand. When it fails to materialize instantaneously, someone or something must be blamed, and run out of town on a rail...Only after we've all Tweeted our trampled feelings to the world, and absorbed sufficient fake sympathy to steel us until the next existential crisis (mostly from people we've never met, who actually couldn't care less if we fell off the earth tomorrow), can we then move on to tomorrow's phony outrage.

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...

 

The software company I work for, we do use "SOON" when the build is on the ramp for the release. Works pretty good. ;)

Line 6's build IS on the ramp. I think your employer and Line 6 use different sized ramps.

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Apologies if the excitement and anticipation came across as hounding!  My comments (and I'm sure others) were intended to be a light-hearted expression of how pleased I am with the release notes and what we'll be getting.

 

I too am a software dev, and fully appreciate the Line6 way of working - if only my clients would allow me to work in the same way!

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If you don't know "when that point in time it happens", you should not use the word "SOON". That is not a fair way to tease your user base.

 

The software company I work for, we do use "SOON" when the build is on the ramp for the release. Works pretty good. ;)

 

First of all when you're company says "soon", that implies that they don't have an exact date. And if they do have an exact date, why don't they announce that instead of just using the word soon? What's your company's definition of soon? Does your company have the same definition for soon that Line 6 does? "It's close but we don't know exactly when". i.e. "on the ramp" just like Line 6 just did? Else, they'd post the exact date. So Line 6 IS doing it the way you describe your company doing it. You aren't making any sense.

 

I personally don't care. But there are many people who disagree with you. I've been on these forums a long time

 

There are two generic posts of this ilk.

 

1. How close is the next update????? How close is the next update????? How close is the next update????? How close is the next update????? How close is the next update????? How close is the next update????? How close is the next update????? How close is the next update????? How close is the next update????? How close is the next update????? How close is the next update?????

 

Which leads to Line 6 letting us know when it's close. Which then leads to the next generic post.

 

2. Why do you tease us with "it's coming soon". Other/my company does it this way blah blah blah.

 

Line 6 tells you EXACTLY when it's ready AND delivers it within hours of that. Before that, they are KIND enough to let us know that it's close. The way you describe it,it sounds like your company will have it ready but then tease their customers with "soon". Even though it's actually ready.  That doesn't make sense to me.

 

I like the way Line 6 is doing it now but again, I don't really care. It'll come when it comes.  But the bottom line is It don't matter how Line 6 does it. Someone has to whine. Someone will complain.

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I’ve been refreshing the Line 6 Downloads page like a crackhead. Want a new verb for this Sunday!

Man, I'm getting RSI from the same  :lol:

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Line 6's build IS on the ramp. I think your employer and Line 6 use different sized ramps.

 

We do put builds on the ramp when the code is flagged as stable. We never tease anything before that moment. If s...t happens with some tester that spot a showstopper, while the stable is on the ramp, we then hold the release, and communicate with userbase (if we teased an upcoming release).

 

What it seems to happen here is that "coming soon" has been used while the build is still under testing, which doesn't mean on the ramp to me.

 

BTW I have no problems, it's just that I don't like being teased for too much long time. Now I know it's not yet ready, so I'll stop bothering the L6 guys. 

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...

 

Thumbs up to this post. I also wonder why so many people are so extremely nervous about an announced update. It can't be that surprising that a new firmware version will come eventually, the only extra information is that Line6 announced one of its main features. Does that change anything?

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Just a thought sign up to get an email from Line 6 for when new firmware lands.... and then get on with your lifes!!!... enjoy

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We do put builds on the ramp when the code is flagged as stable. We never tease anything before that moment. If s...t happens with some tester that spot a showstopper, while the stable is on the ramp, we then hold the release, and communicate with userbase (if we teased an upcoming release).

 

What it seems to happen here is that "coming soon" has been used while the build is still under testing, which doesn't mean on the ramp to me.

 

BTW I have no problems, it's just that I don't like being teased for too much long time. Now I know it's not yet ready, so I'll stop bothering the L6 guys. 

 

So if you "teased an upcoming release", your company does not use the words "coming soon"? Your company defines "coming soon" as it's under testing? What words does it use for a tease. Coming shortly? It seems like Line 6 has a less specific definition for coming soon than your company does. It just means...wait for it....it's coming soon. And can we just avoid the inevitable "well it's been a week, so it's past soon", whine.

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So if you "teased an upcoming release", your company does not use the words "coming soon"? Your company defines "coming soon" as it's under testing? What words does it use for a tease. Coming shortly? It seems like Line 6 has a less specific definition for coming soon than your company does. It just means...wait for it....it's coming soon. And can we just avoid the inevitable "well it's been a week, so it's past soon", whine.

 

We do not tease "coming soon" a build which is not yet ready to be released. Easy to understand.

 

This process; "We never have release dates for firmware updates. We keep fixing things until there's nothing of note left to fix. We don't know when that point in time is until it happens, and then you guys get the update a couple hours later. " it's totally normal, perfectly fine, there is NOTHING wrong with what Digital Igloo said. But he's describing a build which is not yet ready to be released, hence there is no point in using a "coming soon" about something that "we don't know when that point in time until it happens".

Seriously you don't understand? LOL!

 

BTW, why are you so sensitive to critics? I'm just suggesting to not tease anything until the day (or few days) before you know you'll be releasing. That's all. I'm not in a drama, it's just that I hate the Helix reverbs, they sucks bad time, so this firmware is for me a long wish dream that come true, so these days I was keep lurking over here because of the tease. That's it.

 

Take it easy man.

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We do not tease "coming soon" a build which is not yet ready to be released. Easy to understand.

 

This process; "We never have release dates for firmware updates. We keep fixing things until there's nothing of note left to fix. We don't know when that point in time is until it happens, and then you guys get the update a couple hours later. " it's totally normal, perfectly fine, there is NOTHING wrong with what Digital Igloo said. But he's describing a build which is not yet ready to be released, hence there is no point in using a "coming soon" about something that "we don't know when that point in time until it happens".

Seriously you don't understand? LOL!

 

BTW, why are you so sensitive to critics? I'm just suggesting to not tease anything until the day (or few days) before you know you'll be releasing. That's all. I'm not in a drama, it's just that I hate the Helix reverbs, they sucks bad time, so this firmware is for me a long wish dream that come true, so these days I was keep lurking over here because of the tease. That's it.

 

Take it easy man.

 

I wasn't angry or upset. Where did you get that. Just tired of all the whining. And your whine sounded very illogica.I just questioned your logic. I'm sorry if that comes off as harsh or upset you in any way. I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree with you at all. And it's based on how you get so definition specific about a very generic  statement. It's as illogical as you first saying there is NOTHING wrong with what DI said and then you go on to state what is wrong with it. HUH? I understand english and your english makes no sense. Why are YOU so sensitive to critics? I'm not upset at all.

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I'm just suggesting to not tease anything until the day (or few days) before you know you'll be releasing. 

 

 

Well, I'm just a bit upset. Ya know, Id hate to have to deal with the GP on a daily basis. Its damned if they do, and damned if they don't. What am I babbling about now? For YEARS we wanted more input and status reports from Line-6 here on the forums of things they were working on. Now when they (Thanks, DI) "finally" start doing this, start giving us some information on whats is coming and suggesting it would be here "soon",  there are complaints about teasing us. Really? Ya know, At this point If I were Line-6, id just say F um all an feed um big fat flounders on Friday, and tell um the release will be finished someday when we decide, or maybe not at all. Jeeeeeeze I can't believe that no matter what is done or how they word it,  it's just not good enough.

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... Ya know, At this point If I were Line-6, id just say F um all an feed um big fat flounders on Friday, and tell um the release will be finished someday when we decide, or maybe not at all. Jeeeeeeze I can't believe that no matter what is done or how they word it,  it's just not good enough.

 

:D :D All too true. Thanks for the laugh!

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Jeeeeeeze I can't believe that no matter what is done or how they word it, it's just not good enough.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^

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The best way to deal with this is to under-promise and over-deliver.   It's a question of managing expectations so that people are not disappointed, in this case by the timing.  

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I'm a software developer.  This process isn't that hard, and it's about managing expectations.   L6 knows what the feature set for the release candidate is.  They're of course welcome to share update release notes.  However, that should have been accompanied by a target release date.  If they're doing effective defect management then they should have line of site on a reasonable convergence date.  You pad that a little bit and push out the release notes and date.  Hey guys, we're targeting release 2.50 with these features on 2/2, we'll keep you updated as the date gets closer.

 

Everybody goes "cool, let's wait for 2/2, so excited, let's talk about what's coming".   

 

If release date is approaching, and they know they're not going to make it, then you push out the date.  "sorry guys, trying to get you the highest quality code, we're slipping to 2/14".  If they hit the date then everybody goes "allright, 2.50 released!  Let's go back to hating on the tuner."

 

It's not really that complicated.  If they slip dates for the next 6 months, then they deserve to take some lollipop.  It means you didn't plan well or didn't execute well.  Slip once or twice, and your customers will be accepting.  Make a habit of it, and you lose trust and confidence.

 

Ambiguity is the problem here.   "Soon" doesn't mean lollipop.   I'm grateful they're releasing updates, but it could be managed better without pissing off your customers.   The endless "where is the update" threads on every L6 forum (TGP, FB, here, etc) could have been avoided with some decent release management.  I'm sick of reading about it, I'm sick of people complaining about it.   It's all just noise, but it didn't have to be.  

 

I've been doing this job for 20+ years.  I develop and deliver firmware for enterprise class storage.  And I can tell you, unequivocally, that ambiguity is one thing customers won't tolerate.  Just look at the complaint storm that "soon" created.  You never tell your customer "you'll get it when you get it".   Ok fine, then I'll go get your competitor's product, since I can least plan around it.   If L6 had zero competition and completely owned the market, then you have a little more leverage.  But that isn't the case here.

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Well, I'm just a bit upset. Ya know, Id hate to have to deal with the GP on a daily basis. Its damned if they do, and damned if they don't. What am I babbling about now? For YEARS we wanted more input and status reports from Line-6 here on the forums of things they were working on. Now when they (Thanks, DI) "finally" start doing this, start giving us some information on whats is coming and suggesting it would be here "soon", there are complaints about teasing us. Really? Ya know, At this point If I were Line-6, id just say F um all an feed um big fat flounders on Friday, and tell um the release will be finished someday when we decide, or maybe not at all. Jeeeeeeze I can't believe that no matter what is done or how they word it, it's just not good enough.

 

1000% agree... People get off line 6 backs and this nonsense about when updates arrive, just get on with your life's and actually making music until an email lands in your inbox saying the firmware has been released. Enjoy!

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It's a question of managing expectations so that people are not disappointed, in this case by the timing.

Good luck with that...it probably would have worked years ago, before we lived in a world of comically unrealistic expectations, driven by the ridiculous notion that essentially everything is now a birthright. For many, if they've spent $5, they feel that they're entitled to $10 worth of stuff. For those folks, there's no such thing as "enough", and satisfying them is impossible.

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I'm a software developer.  This process isn't that hard, and it's about managing expectations.   L6 knows what the feature set for the release candidate is.  They're of course welcome to share update release notes.  However, that should have been accompanied by a target release date.  If they're doing effective defect management then they should have line of site on a reasonable convergence date.  You pad that a little bit and push out the release notes and date.  Hey guys, we're targeting release 2.50 with these features on 2/2, we'll keep you updated as the date gets closer.

 

Everybody goes "cool, let's wait for 2/2, so excited, let's talk about what's coming".   

 

If release date is approaching, and they know they're not going to make it, then you push out the date.  "sorry guys, trying to get you the highest quality code, we're slipping to 2/14".  If they hit the date then everybody goes "allright, 2.50 released!  Let's go back to hating on the tuner."

 

It's not really that complicated.  If they slip dates for the next 6 months, then they deserve to take some lollipop.  It means you didn't plan well or didn't execute well.  Slip once or twice, and your customers will be accepting.  Make a habit of it, and you lose trust and confidence.

 

Ambiguity is the problem here.   "Soon" doesn't mean lollipop.   I'm grateful they're releasing updates, but it could be managed better without pissing off your customers.   The endless "where is the update" threads on every L6 forum (TGP, FB, here, etc) could have been avoided with some decent release management.  I'm sick of reading about it, I'm sick of people complaining about it.   It's all just noise, but it didn't have to be.  

 

I've been doing this job for 20+ years.  I develop and deliver firmware for enterprise class storage.  And I can tell you, unequivocally, that ambiguity is one thing customers won't tolerate.  Just look at the complaint storm that "soon" created.  You never tell your customer "you'll get it when you get it".   Ok fine, then I'll go get your competitor's product, since I can least plan around it.   If L6 had zero competition and completely owned the market, then you have a little more leverage.  But that isn't the case here.

 

There is some history to this. Line 6 used to do it exactly how you described. This is back in the XT days. There was an incident when they announced a date, were late, and it created a major lollipop storm. It got so bad they went to the policy of not telling anything anywhere to anyone. So after much, "please tell us something" they've been slowly poking their head out of the hole so to speak. The "it could be managed better without pissing off your customers" has never been true here. No matter how they've dealt with it, some one always gets mad, impatient, etc. And I would argue that the "you'll get it when you get it" characterization is a bit off. I think they were a bit more kind than that. It was just informational. And I'm not sure how you think they should have done it. It sounds like you want them to go back to the no information model until it's totally ready, way of doing things. What that means, in this case, we would not have heard about it until an hour before it was ready and available, according to DI. Wouldn't have heard about the work going on with the Reverbs. Wouldn't have heard about the Legacy effects. It would have just shown up. There are probably peope who would prefer it that way. I would be curious as to exactly how and when anyone here thinks they could do this without upsetting someone. I don't see that happening. Someone won't like it, no matter how it's done.

 

I personally do like the current way. We get told they're close and we get it pretty much the moment it's ready to go. It also sounds like your company deals with the industrial/business side of things where any changes in whatever require major time and money to assimilate quickly. So having a solid ready by date is way more critical than a musician who is getting a free upgrade that mostly just adds new, FREE stuff. And I'm guessing dealing with a business/corporation is much different than dealing with a bunch of whiny, entitled musicians. But I really honestly don't care. It'll get here when it get's here. No amount of posting,whining, comparing etc. will get it here faster.

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I'm a software developer.  This process isn't that hard, and it's about managing expectations.   L6 knows what the feature set for the release candidate is.  They're of course welcome to share update release notes.  However, that should have been accompanied by a target release date.  If they're doing effective defect management then they should have line of site on a reasonable convergence date.  You pad that a little bit and push out the release notes and date.  Hey guys, we're targeting release 2.50 with these features on 2/2, we'll keep you updated as the date gets closer.

 

Everybody goes "cool, let's wait for 2/2, so excited, let's talk about what's coming".   

 

If release date is approaching, and they know they're not going to make it, then you push out the date.  "sorry guys, trying to get you the highest quality code, we're slipping to 2/14".  If they hit the date then everybody goes "allright, 2.50 released!  Let's go back to hating on the tuner."

 

It's not really that complicated.  If they slip dates for the next 6 months, then they deserve to take some lollipop.  It means you didn't plan well or didn't execute well.  Slip once or twice, and your customers will be accepting.  Make a habit of it, and you lose trust and confidence.

 

Ambiguity is the problem here.   "Soon" doesn't mean lollipop.   I'm grateful they're releasing updates, but it could be managed better without pissing off your customers.   The endless "where is the update" threads on every L6 forum (TGP, FB, here, etc) could have been avoided with some decent release management.  I'm sick of reading about it, I'm sick of people complaining about it.   It's all just noise, but it didn't have to be.  

 

I've been doing this job for 20+ years.  I develop and deliver firmware for enterprise class storage.  And I can tell you, unequivocally, that ambiguity is one thing customers won't tolerate.  Just look at the complaint storm that "soon" created.  You never tell your customer "you'll get it when you get it".   Ok fine, then I'll go get your competitor's product, since I can least plan around it.   If L6 had zero competition and completely owned the market, then you have a little more leverage.  But that isn't the case here.

 

Having been a software developer, as well as project manager, and finally a program manager in the field of commercial software I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you're saying.  However there are a few significant differences to take into account in what's been happening here and versioned releases of a singular project, or even a singular product.

 

The Helix has been transitioning over the last year from a discreet product to a family of cohesive, integrated products, and I can certainly appreciate the difficulties in doing that as that's the world I came from.  In the last year we've seen the introduction of Helix Native, Helix LT, and now Helix FX.  All working within a consolidated framework and architecture.  We've had two versions of the core firmware delivered in 2017, the latest being in November...roughly 2 1/2 months ago.  In the 2.30 release we were also made aware that a considerable amount of re-architecting of the core software had been accomplished to enable easier and better cohesiveness between the products in future updates.  And now 2 months after the completion of that effort we see some of the significant results of that effort which is a Helix unit that can co-exist and be compatible with the other platforms even with key functionality removed, as well as the importation of quite a large array of legacy capabilities.

 

I'm not making excuses for Line 6, but I have to admit I subscribe to the sentiments that HonestOpinion verbalized above about this seeming "sense of entitlement" with no appreciation for the achievement Line 6 has accomplished in a mere short 12 month period.  In my 40 plus years of developing commercial products I've never seen such a comprehensive expansion of a platform in such a short period of time.  Given the variety of environments and uses this product is exposed to both in firmware, Windows, and Apple not to mention integration with the wide array of input and output devices, I'm quite astonished that the integration testing alone didn't take a year.

 

What is most astonishing above all is that all of this work was done for FREE to existing users and even at a discount on new platforms....and still people whine.

 

I love my Helix, I'm just not sure I have a lot of respect for much of the Helix user base quite honestly.

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I've been doing this job for 20+ years.  I develop and deliver firmware for enterprise class storage.  And I can tell you, unequivocally, that ambiguity is one thing customers won't tolerate.  Just look at the complaint storm that "soon" created.  You never tell your customer "you'll get it when you get it".   Ok fine, then I'll go get your competitor's product, since I can least plan around it.   If L6 had zero competition and completely owned the market, then you have a little more leverage.  But that isn't the case here.

 

Which of Line 6's competitors is announcing release dates for their firmware updates? None that I know of... Dude, we're not people buying enterprise class storage solutions. We're musicians. We should be more chill... No one else in this segment has released updates that rival the scope and scale of the updates that Line 6 has released in the last year and half or so. Fractal updates have been getting progressively smaller and smaller and more infrequent as they were working on the Axe FX III.

 

Anyway, the update should be out next week. They found a few "blocker" bugs in their last rounds of testing today that pushed it out.

 

Line 6 has been fairly transparent as far their deadlines. They said from the get-go regarding 2.50 they were aiming for NAMM. Not sure what the big deal other than that perhaps which such a large user base, it's hard to get the word out to everyone.

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DI posted on TGP:

 

Dom and the QA team found a couple blocker bugs this morning. Looks like next week for 2.50; sorry, guys.

 

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Ok fine, then I'll go get your competitor's product, since I can least plan around it.   If L6 had zero competition and completely owned the market, then you have a little more leverage.  But that isn't the case here.

 

I think this might be true when you are making sure you're buying some tehcnological algorhithmic atomic whatnot superiority which anyway is measured in microscopic scale. But this is music and creative convenience in the first place. It could be another thing to ask for a this or that bug fixed, but no one seems to really talk about it

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No problem line 6 guys! Do whatever you have to do, keep up be awesome! Take your time!

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