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hmjoe

Marshalls in Helix

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Hello All,

 

I notice that a lot of people seem to complain about a New Marshall in an update.   I am not one of those people.  I love Marshalls.  Bring them all on...

 

But...  

 

Having worked for Marshall in the past for several years and literally playing through thousands of amplifiers...   Most of the Plexi Marshalls (and I have owned some and restored several) that are modeled in the Helix don't sound to me like Marshalls, or accurate Marshalls.

 

I have purchased a Marshall 1959 patch from Glenn Delaune.   To me, that sounds pretty much exactly like a Marshall Plexi.

 

Listen to them.   Glenn has a video on YouTube to hear.

 

So my question is:  Why do the Models not sound close to what Glenn made with his patch?

 

I would think it should be in the ball park. Right?  Unless I am doing something wrong.

 

I am wondering if the amps that are being used to Model are in disrepair, need new caps, etc.  

 

I am not trying to bash the Helix at all.   I love it.   I REALLY Love it.  Just trying to give some honest input to make it better.  

 

 

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YouTube "listen to this awesome tone" videos are a curse. And despite claims to the contrary, you'll never know what kind of post-processing fairy dust was applied in producing them. The guy is selling something...nuff said.

 

Trying to use someone else's patches and settings to achieve the "same" tone is nearly 100% futile. He's got his guitars, pickups, monitors, ears, and fingers...and you've got yours. Everything's variable, entirely subjective, and it never works.

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the plexi bright is my main amp in helix and i love it.

isn't it a fact that no two plexi's are alike.

also the speaker cab (ir's) is one of the biggest contributers in the overall tone imo.

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YouTube "listen to this awesome tone" videos are a curse. And despite claims to the contrary, you'll never know what kind of post-processing fairy dust was applied in producing them. The guy is selling something...nuff said.

 

Trying to use someone else's patches and settings to achieve the "same" tone is nearly 100% futile. He's got his guitars, pickups, monitors, ears, and fingers...and you've got yours. Everything's variable, entirely subjective, and it never works.

 

Agreed, but I bought his patch and is actually sounds better than the video.   To me, this patch is what convinced me to buy the helix.

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"Most of the Plexi Marshalls (and I have owned some and restored several) that are modeled in the Helix don't sound to me like Marshalls, or accurate Marshalls."

 

So, which ones DO sound right to you?

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the plexi bright is my main amp in helix and i love it.

isn't it a fact that no two plexi's are alike.

also the speaker cab (ir's) is one of the biggest contributers in the overall tone imo.

Yes, this is true about any 2 amps...   But, I think most of the time (speakers included) that old amps don't sound the same as when they were new.   Components wear out.  etc.  

Greenbacks are an example too.  The new Greenbacks sound like the Old ones did when they were new.

 

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keep coming back to this video for the helix plexi tone.

 

That is Awesome, but I think Glenn's patch is still better.    That video must have an IR or something for the Speaker.  Sounds like not the stock cabs.

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"Most of the Plexi Marshalls (and I have owned some and restored several) that are modeled in the Helix don't sound to me like Marshalls, or accurate Marshalls."

 

So, which ones DO sound right to you?

Like I said, the one that Glenn made sounds great.  The one in the video MGBlade posted is almost as great.  

 

Unless I am doing something wrong, the stock ones don't sound like that.   Maybe I have to do some tweaking to EQ, but it should sound like that "out of the box", No?

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So you're saying you purchased Glenn's patch and you're happy with the way it sounds? It should be pretty easy to see what he does in it... I don't find the Plexis all that hard to dial in, but I can't really say I have a specific reference tone in mind.

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So you're saying you purchased Glenn's patch and you're happy with the way it sounds? It should be pretty easy to see what he does in it... I don't find the Plexis all that hard to dial in, but I can't really say I have a specific reference tone in mind.

 

He is doing all kinds of stuff with IRs..  It is definitely not just putting stock components up and setting parameters.

I guess Listen to that patch on YouTube.  Or even listen to other patch posted in a video in this thread.  Try to get that sound with stock stuff.

 

 

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So, just to be clear, what you ACTUALLY meant to say was:

 

"NONE of the Plexi Marshalls .......... that are modeled in the Helix sound to me like Marshalls, or accurate Marshalls."

 

The statement that "MOST don't" means that "SOME do", and I was asking WHICH ones do, as modeled in the Helix, not as modded by a third party.

 

Also, when I went looking, for comparison, for the preset that you referenced - "Marshall 1959" - on GD's site, I couldn't find it. Is it part of a specific package? What is the actual patch name?

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Like I said, the one that Glenn made sounds great. The one in the video MGBlade posted is almost as great.

 

Unless I am doing something wrong, the stock ones don't sound like that. Maybe I have to do some tweaking to EQ, but it should sound like that "out of the box", No?

No...because Glenn didn't sell you an "out of the box" patch with factory default settings. It's been tweaked 8 ways to Sunday. The fact that it works for you at all is borderline miraculous, because general speaking nothing is instantaneously awesome, meeting all of one's expectations with no additional effort...with Helix, or any other modeler. Count your blessings, and use some of those settings as a starting point for your own patches if you like. Might work with some amp models, but not others. Modelling is weird...it's not an amp. Can't really treat it like one...

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Unless I am doing something wrong, the stock ones don't sound like that.   Maybe I have to do some tweaking to EQ, but it should sound like that "out of the box", No?

No, nothing is "out of the box" in Helix. So you are really not referring to the just the amp, but the amp and cabinet combination that doesn't sound "right" to you? That brings up the subject of on board cabinet models and/or/vs IRs. That's a whole different ball game. 

 

Remember, "out of the box" is what ever Line 6 decided to have as parameter factory defaults on every amp/effect/cab model in the Helix. You will 99% of the time require some adjustment to reach the tones in your head. 

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So, just to be clear, what you ACTUALLY meant to say was:

 

"NONE of the Plexi Marshalls .......... that are modeled in the Helix sound to me like Marshalls, or accurate Marshalls."

 

The statement that "MOST don't" means that "SOME do", and I was asking WHICH ones do, as modeled in the Helix, not as modded by a third party.

 

Also, when I went looking, for comparison, for the preset that you referenced - "Marshall 1959" - on GD's site, I couldn't find it. Is it part of a specific package? What is the actual patch name?

 

Here is Glenn's Patch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NieNquUz0iI

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"Is it part of a specific package? What is the actual patch name?"

 

You said you bought it. As part of which package? 1959SLP is what it's called in the YouTube demo, but he doesn't give details for all packages, and I haven't found this one.

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Ok Folks.   It seems like some folks are trying to be helpful and others are quite defensive...

 

Let me say a few things first and then re-phrase my question or statement.

 

I am not a Helix Hater.   I am not and Axe guy.   I am not someone looking to bash the Helix in any way.   I thought positive enough about it to put my money down and buy one.

 

If you work for Line 6, I know you guys work hard to produce a great product.  I am NOT knocking you hard work at all.  

 

What I am doing is either giving Constructive Criticism OR asking What am I doing wrong.

 

So, Let me Rephrase:

 

If I take a Marshall Plexi and throw it on top of a Marshall 4x12 with Green Backs or even G12T75 Speakers in it, plug my Les Paul into the Bright input and play it, A noise comes out of the box.  All I may need to tweak is Volumes, Bass, Middle, Treble, Presence.

 

For Reference, That Noise is a lot like Glenn's Patch (which I posted a video to) and MG Blade's Video, But that is for Reference, so you know the sound I am talking about.

 

That being said, I think it is a reasonable expectation to be able to put the same virtual amp/cab up in helix, set similar settings ( Volumes, Bass, Middle, etc) and get a somewhat similar sound.   One person said in this thread that Glenn tweaked his patch 8 way to Sunday...  The point I am making is it shouldn't take more than plopping an amp down and setting the standard settings to get a similar sound as the real thing.   Yeah, I know there is a Microphone involved too.   That is also taken into account.

That being said, I am hopeful that someone at Helix (or even a user) says either:
1) Well, you might get better success by doing this or that ( ie, change some parameter somewhere like eq response, etc)
 

or

 

2) You know what? You gave us something to think about and thank you for your input.  perhaps because of it, 2.60 may have even better patches.

 

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"Is it part of a specific package? What is the actual patch name?"

 

You said you bought it. As part of which package? 1959SLP is what it's called in the YouTube demo, but he doesn't give details for all packages, and I haven't found this one.

I ended up buying his package that included all of his patches.  I figured if I paid all this money for the Helix, might as well buy these awesome patches too.

But it is in his Helix/Helix LT Boutique Amps Simulation Patches Volume I

 

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Ok Folks.   It seems like some folks are trying to be helpful and others are quite defensive...

 

Let me say a few things first and then re-phrase my question or statement.

 

I am not a Helix Hater.   I am not and Axe guy.   I am not someone looking to bash the Helix in any way.   I thought positive enough about it to put my money down and buy one.

 

If you work for Line 6, I know you guys work hard to produce a great product.  I am NOT knocking you hard work at all.  

 

What I am doing is either giving Constructive Criticism OR asking What am I doing wrong.

 

So, Let me Rephrase:

 

If I take a Marshall Plexi and throw it on top of a Marshall 4x12 with Green Backs or even G12T75 Speakers in it, plug my Les Paul into the Bright input and play it, A noise comes out of the box.  All I may need to tweak is Volumes, Bass, Middle, Treble, Presence.

 

For Reference, That Noise is a lot like Glenn's Patch (which I posted a video to) and MG Blade's Video, But that is for Reference, so you know the sound I am talking about.

 

That being said, I think it is a reasonable expectation to be able to put the same virtual amp/cab up in helix, set similar settings ( Volumes, Bass, Middle, etc) and get a somewhat similar sound.   One person said in this thread that Glenn tweaked his patch 8 way to Sunday...  The point I am making is it shouldn't take more than plopping an amp down and setting the standard settings to get a similar sound as the real thing.   Yeah, I know there is a Microphone involved too.   That is also taken into account.

 

That being said, I am hopeful that someone at Helix (or even a user) says either:

1) Well, you might get better success by doing this or that ( ie, change some parameter somewhere like eq response, etc)

 

or

 

2) You know what? You gave us something to think about and thank you for your input.  perhaps because of it, 2.60 may have even better patches.

 

 

 

I think what's happening here is a difference in understanding about the very nature of modeling.

 

First, anything Glenn can do, you can do.  He's starts with the same amp model, but everything changes after that.  He may be selecting certain IR combinations that give it more of an in-the-room feel to produce the sound you expect to hear.  But that still leaves another question of, what are you hearing it through???  Because what sounds correct to your ears will not necessarily sound the same to someone else using a different output device (FRFR powered speaker, FRFR cabinet, FRFR studio speaker, traditional cab, etc....).  Change your output device and you may not be quite so happy even with Glenn's preset and find it needs a bit of tweaking.

 

I get a very realistic and satisfying Marshall sound using the Plexi Bright model with a Celestion Redback IR using a mix of a R121 and MD421 mics with a Les Paul that has Burstbucker Pro II pickups and output through a Yamaha DXR12 speaker applying a high cut of around 9000Hz with the parametric equalizer post cabinet.  But change any one of those elements and the end sound will not be the same.  In the modeling world you're ALWAYS dealing with a signal chain, unlike the plug in and play real world. So it always comes down to this.  It's not the precision of the amp model, it's the ability of the person doing the modeling in crafting the signal chain given the environment he's using it in.  This isn't just a Helix thing, it's a modeling thing.

 

In order to be successful in getting the sound you want with your particular setup you have to approach this in the same way it would be approached in a studio environment rather than in a live room, because that is what you're configuring.

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Man i get an awesome plexi sound by using 2 cabs. A green 25 and the 20. Low cut at 100 high cut at 10, 67 mic and 57. Play with bias x and bias.

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I think what's happening here is a difference in understanding about the very nature of modeling.

 

First, anything Glenn can do, you can do.  He's starts with the same amp model, but everything changes after that.  He may be selecting certain IR combinations that give it more of an in-the-room feel to produce the sound you expect to hear.  But that still leaves another question of, what are you hearing it through???  Because what sounds correct to your ears will not necessarily sound the same to someone else using a different output device (FRFR powered speaker, FRFR cabinet, FRFR studio speaker, traditional cab, etc....).  Change your output device and you may not be quite so happy even with Glenn's preset and find it needs a bit of tweaking.

 

I get a very realistic and satisfying Marshall sound using the Plexi Bright model with a Celestion Redback IR using a mix of a R121 and MD421 mics with a Les Paul that has Burstbucker Pro II pickups and output through a Yamaha DXR12 speaker applying a high cut of around 9000Hz with the parametric equalizer post cabinet.  But change any one of those elements and the end sound will not be the same.  In the modeling world you're ALWAYS dealing with a signal chain, unlike the plug in and play real world. So it always comes down to this.  It's not the precision of the amp model, it's the ability of the person doing the modeling in crafting the signal chain given the environment he's using it in.  This isn't just a Helix thing, it's a modeling thing.

 

In order to be successful in getting the sound you want with your particular setup you have to approach this in the same way it would be approached in a studio environment rather than in a live room, because that is what you're configuring.

Thanks for this...

The funny thing is that for many of his amps, I don't remember if the Marshall is one, he doesn't use the amp model.   He uses like a JC-120 and somehow makes it sound like a Marshall, or other amp...   He does a lot with IRs..  but when I tell you his Marshall patch not only sounds like a Marshall, but it also "Feels" like a Marshall on your fingers...

 

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I ended up buying his package that included all of his patches.  I figured if I paid all this money for the Helix, might as well buy these awesome patches too.

But it is in his Helix/Helix LT Boutique Amps Simulation Patches Volume I

 

 

Thanks!

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Nothing wrong with good tone, no matter what the tag says on it.  ;)

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