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EdwinV

Quality of legacy effects

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Hi Guys,

 

Haven't been able to update to 2.50 yet, but I'm very curious to know what is the general opinion on the quality of the legacy effects. I don't have experience with the gear they are deduced from. I've read they are supposed to sound a little bit better from the Helix, but what can I expect?

 

Can't wait to update, but in the meantime thanks for your response!

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I've read they are supposed to sound a little bit better from the Helix, but what can I expect?

"Quality" is 100% subjective. It's kinda like asking someone else if they think you'd like eggplant or not...there's only one way to find out.

 

Honestly, it'll just depend on who you ask. Some will think they're perfectly fine, others will swear up and down that the HX effects are superior, some won't touch them with a 10' pole just because there "old", so they won't actually know one way or the other.

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They were considered very good by most in the day. My concern would be, it's been my experience that when things are ported over, they aren't exactly the same as the old ones. I haven't checked anything out yet, so I can't currently speak to the truth of that in this case.

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They were considered very good by most in the day. My concern would be, it's been my experience that when things are ported over, they aren't exactly the same as the old ones. I haven't checked anything out yet, so I can't currently speak to the truth of that in this case.

I had really been missing the dimension chorus...sounds comparable to me. LOVED the tube drive in the POD HD... and it still sounds good, but after several months of the Minotaur and couple other HX dirt pedals, I'm not quite in love with the tube drive at present... but I suspect I've just gotten used to the others, rather than a "fault" with the tube drive.

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You do benefit from the beefed up hardware and faster more powerful dual DSPs on the Helix even when they are running legacy code as well as the fact that they may hopefully use less DSP than some of the HX effects so either way the new(old) legacy effects are a gift.

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You do benefit from the beefed up hardware and faster more powerful dual DSPs on the Helix even when they are running legacy code as well as the fact that they may hopefully use less DSP than some of the HX effects so either way the new(old) legacy effects are a gift.

My experience with the legacy effects so far is that the DSP usage is comparable to HX-level effects, some actually using more DSP. For example, I found that I could add an HX Screamer to a patch that was close to dsp limit, but not the legacy Screamer. I was hoping for significantly less dsp usage on legacy effects, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. It’s understandable though, as the details of the port-over aren’t really known to us. They may be able to make them more efficient later, but right now I’m very glad to just have them.

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My experience with the legacy effects so far is that the DSP usage is comparable to HX-level effects, some actually using more DSP. For example, I found that I could add an HX Screamer to a patch that was close to dsp limit, but not the legacy Screamer. I was hoping for significantly less dsp usage on legacy effects, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. It’s understandable though, as the details of the port-over aren’t really known to us. They may be able to make them more efficient later, but right now I’m very glad to just have them.

 

Interesting and that is why I included the caveat "hopefully" use less DSP. You are right they may have found optimizations for the HX effects that don't exist in the legacy ones or there could even be some kind of additional "translation" code layer required for the Legacy effects that uses up a bit of DSP.  Total speculation on my part though. I also was hoping to use them when my DSP got squeezed. As you say though, let's not look a gift horse in the mouth, even if the horse is a little overweight.  ;)

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I found that I could add an HX Screamer to a patch that was close to dsp limit, but not the legacy Screamer. 

Yeah, me too, both things... I'm very glad to have them, and I noticed that too, that they aren't as light on the DSP usage as I expected.

I guess you can't have it all :D

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Interesting and that is why I included the caveat "hopefully" use less DSP. You are right they may have found optimizations for the HX effects that don't exist in the legacy ones or there could even be some kind of additional "translation" code layer required for the Legacy effects that uses up a bit of DSP.  Total speculation on my part though. I also was hoping to use them when my DSP got squeezed. As you say though, let's not look a gift horse in the mouth, even if the horse is a little overweight.  ;)

overtime coding becomes more efficient in the way it uses resources. perhaps those old legacy versions used less efficient coding for the use of resources hence more dsp juice needed... but then those old devices they are from would have needed a lot more dsp than they had... to be honest im not sure of the answer as you would think they would use less dsp

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I put a lot of effort into getting a good tone on an HD500X and never quite got there. I suspect it was primarily because of the cabinet models not being IR based. But the effects were certainly usable and interesting. The legacy effects are what they are. Its nice to have them, but I probably won't spend a lot of time auditioning ones that overlap with newer HX effects. But I wouldn't hesitate to use one that did the job.

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I put a lot of effort into getting a good tone on an HD500X and never quite got there. I suspect it was primarily because of the cabinet models not being IR based. But the effects were certainly usable and interesting. The legacy effects are what they are. Its nice to have them, but I probably won't spend a lot of time auditioning ones that overlap with newer HX effects. But I wouldn't hesitate to use one that did the job.

Just In case you want a quick reference of what does and doesnt overlap with newer HX effects

http://line6.com/support/topic/31905-new-legacy-fx-duplicates-and-not-in-helix-before/?do=findComment&comment=244998

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The auto-volume echo isn't as usable/pad-like as it was on the Echo Pro, or the DL4. I never could recreate the same sound on an M-series pedal with identical settings, or even with generous tweaking. My conclusion was that they must've changed the algorithm, and the 2.50 legacy version appears to be the M-series version... 

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The legacy effects are what they are. Its nice to have them, but I probably won't spend a lot of time auditioning ones that overlap with newer HX effects.

 

That could be a mistake. For example, I liked the Tube Screamer in my M13 more than the one in my Helix. I only had a couple of minutes of playing time after the update today, but I did compare them and I still like the Legacy version better. Who knows how many of these Legacy duplicates might turn out to be your preference?! It's worth checking out.

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As was said before it is very subjective. Regarding Reverbs the Spring 63 is still my favorite - don't care in which category it is listed.

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I don't know guys. The screamer, fuzz face, auto volume are better than the hx version. Amyway, i apreciate that we have all these options.

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Thanks for all your responses! Very nice of you all to take the time and effort to share your opinions and experiences.

 

In the meantime I have been able to update too. The new amps are really great additions. For me, the new reverbs are a bit overkill but I'm not really a fan of those "overwhelming" reverbs. The legacy ones were more than enough for me already.

 

As for the legacy effects: I had only time to audition but a few. In my opinion (and setup), the legacy screamer is a bit noisier than the HX screamer and doesn't seem to have the "depth" (don't know how to describe it better) of the HX version. But the difference is not miles away. I do like the Colordrive and the Jumbo Fuzz. Not sure what Mk Tone Bender was modeled for the Jumbo Fuzz.

 

Again, a very nice update from Line 6; thanks for that!

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I've never used any of the POD hardware, but I did like the auto-volume delay and the plateaux reverb. As Ola Englund would say, "More is more".

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I could be crazy, because I know I do not have the magic ears that a lot of people apparently have, but I feel the M series drives sound better now then they did in the M13 I had. Maybe it is the converters sounding better before hitting my Princeton Reverb? 

 

And man did I miss the Growler! I love mixing it low behind a really textured fuzz sound form my fuzz god 2, for a little bit of extra texture. 

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I could be crazy, because I know I do not have the magic ears that a lot of people apparently have, but I feel the M series drives sound better now then they did in the M13 I had. Maybe it is the converters sounding better before hitting my Princeton Reverb? 

 

And man did I miss the Growler! I love mixing it low behind a really textured fuzz sound form my fuzz god 2, for a little bit of extra texture. 

Me too, I think they sound different now and, I haven't had the time to plug my HD500 in weeks and compare them, but I also think that most, if not all models sound better to me now. DI said that, due to running in an overall better machine (not his words) they can be expected to sound better.

 

And I missed the growler too!! :D

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I guess you can't have it all :D

I know, where would you put it? :P

 

Hi Guys,

 

Haven't been able to update to 2.50 yet, but I'm very curious to know what is the general opinion on the quality of the legacy effects. I don't have experience with the gear they are deduced from. I've read they are supposed to sound a little bit better from the Helix, but what can I expect?

 

Can't wait to update, but in the meantime thanks for your response!

I know youve already updated but id like to share my opinion anyway and that is that the legacy fx have really helped fill a sonic gap that i felt was missing between some of the older and newer products. Even if some of the fx don't sound quite as good, it still makes the helix a better sounding unit overall.

 

As was said before it is very subjective. Regarding Reverbs the Spring 63 is still my favorite - don't care in which category it is listed.

Brother im sure you just need some more time with the verbs. While the 63 may still be your fav, and thats cool, the new verbs are a lot better sounding. I'll still use every one of the verbs in the legacy category at some point, because obviously not every sound calls for pristinely lush reverbs, but there is certainly a quality difference, even if for only the deeper control....not to mention the fact that the legacy verbs will still make some sounds the HX verbs are incapable of.

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Brother im sure you just need some more time with the verbs. While the 63 may still be your fav, and thats cool, the new verbs are a lot better sounding. I'll still use every one of the verbs in the legacy category at some point, because obviously not every sound calls for pristinely lush reverbs, but there is certainly a quality difference, even if for only the deeper control....not to mention the fact that the legacy verbs will still make some sounds the HX verbs are incapable of.

 

I will spend much more them trying them out for sure. I use reverbs mostly as sublte effect - most at the time it's more a feeling thing. I don't like to much reverb in my patches unless it's a special effect for a song. And I'm used to the old spring reverbs ;-)

But whatever works ...

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I know youve already updated but id like to share my opinion anyway and that is that the legacy fx have really helped fill a sonic gap that i felt was missing between some of the older and newer products. Even if some of the fx don't sound quite as good, it still makes the helix a better sounding unit overall.

 

That is certainly appreciated! Thanks
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The auto-volume echo isn't as usable/pad-like as it was on the Echo Pro, or the DL4. I never could recreate the same sound on an M-series pedal with identical settings, or even with generous tweaking. My conclusion was that they must've changed the algorithm, and the 2.50 legacy version appears to be the M-series version... 

 

With respect, I disagree.  I loved the auto-volume echo on the DL4 and the M-series.  I've been waiting for a year and a half for it to appear on the Helix.

 

And I'm real happy with the results.  It works exactly as I want it to.  I haven't even messed with the settings.

 

I haven't even really explored the rest of 2.5 - I'm transfixed by the auto-volume echo.

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I wasn't really captivated by previous L6 stuff before the Helix but I liked the vetta comp for reasons I cant even really explain but was happy to see it in this update and made a couple of patches with it right away. The dimension has a flavor as well and the filters are REALLY fun. There is a more refined Freq out emulation possible in there. It looks like they made one in the "Because we love you" new preset. It still doesn't match the Freq Out but overall a lot of really fun and usable stuff

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With respect, I disagree.  I loved the auto-volume echo on the DL4 and the M-series.  I've been waiting for a year and a half for it to appear on the Helix.

 

And I'm real happy with the results.  It works exactly as I want it to.  I haven't even messed with the settings.

 

I haven't even really explored the rest of 2.5 - I'm transfixed by the auto-volume echo.

To each his own. I ran it side by side with an Echo Pro and a DL4 in the send/returns, and the one in the helix is objectively different in play response and sound. The auto-volume echo on the E Pro was a heavily used effect in my rig since it was released in 2001, the DL4 was great when I got out of rack rigs in 2010, but the one in the Helix just isn't it. 

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Maybe I'm easily placated, but I'm just glad there is a usable auto-volume in Helix now. One that hides the pick attack on every single pick attack, regardless of what else is going on in the signal, unlike the HX autoswell.

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To each his own. I ran it side by side with an Echo Pro and a DL4 in the send/returns, and the one in the helix is objectively different in play response and sound. The auto-volume echo on the E Pro was a heavily used effect in my rig since it was released in 2001, the DL4 was great when I got out of rack rigs in 2010, but the one in the Helix just isn't it. 

 

The converters on the Helix are much better than the converters in the DL4 and Echo Pro, and everything is being run at a higher sample rate... So I don't think it's unexpected that they would sound and feel a little different.

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The converters on the Helix are much better than the converters in the DL4 and Echo Pro, and everything is being run at a higher sample rate... So I don't think it's unexpected that they would sound and feel a little different.

 

No doubt, the Echo Pro is 17 years old, and the tech has gotten much better. I'm saying that the algorithm itself is different. 

 

same dry guitar track re-amped through Helix with only Auto-volume in path vs Echo Pro, identical settings-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8qkeuu7ejph1xas/auto_volume_test-1.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jx0hbchupykjmev/auto_volume_test-2.mp3?dl=0

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I found that the sub octave pitch effect in the legacy group was more stable and tracked faster/cleaner than the Simple Pitch setting set to -12 pitch. The balance config is slightly different but easy enough to get.

 

The Simple Synth sounds are good, but they like to jump the octave when I sustain a note (on bass guitar). Still, glad to have this as an option, as the synth sounds in the Helix before were super flexible and neat, but sometimes you just need a basic tracking synthy sound.

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No doubt, the Echo Pro is 17 years old, and the tech has gotten much better. I'm saying that the algorithm itself is different. 

 

same dry guitar track re-amped through Helix with only Auto-volume in path vs Echo Pro, identical settings-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8qkeuu7ejph1xas/auto_volume_test-1.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jx0hbchupykjmev/auto_volume_test-2.mp3?dl=0

 

Where do you have the Mix parameter set on the Auto-Volume Echo in the Helix? That is the one parameter that has definitely changed in behavior. On the DL4 and M-series, the mix control was scaled differently than the Helix.

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Where do you have the Mix parameter set on the Auto-Volume Echo in the Helix? That is the one parameter that has definitely changed in behavior. On the DL4 and M-series, the mix control was scaled differently than the Helix.

Thanks for the reply, Phil! That's good to know. In both of those clips the mix was set to 53%. Here's a clip with the Helix set to 100%, but it still doesn't get there. To my ears, it sounds like the modulation/depth on the echos isn't as extreme, and there's less swell time available on the "dry" signal.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/axfbzqhd04kkf8i/auto_volume_test-3a.mp3?dl=0

 

for reference, here's the same clip through an M-series pedal at 50% mix

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ojz93w948a67k0b/auto_volume_test_M.mp3?dl=0

 

and the same clip going through a DL4 at 50% mix. Output seems to be a bit hotter than the others, but aside from likely differences in a/d converters, this sounds more similar to the Echo Pro-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6brgpful9ljyr8c/auto_volume_test_DL4.mp3?dl=0

 

For what it's worth, I've spent some time in the studio with 2.50, trying to dial in the same sound without looking where my hands were on the knobs, but I just can't recreate it.

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I started flipping through the legacy stuff in my go to patch yesterday just to get a feel for them and then got to the growler..

 

I immediately opened up reaper and used it on a song i'd been messing with. Perfect! Just the bit if strangeness it needed

 

So awesome to have all these options at our fingertips

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I know this is older but for anyone new. I personally like the legacy effects. Especially the reverbs.

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Ou yeaaah! The legacy reverbs are fantastic. I also like the Classic Distortion pedal! 

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I`d love to get a new HX version of the Jet Fuzz Legacy Model... but with the Fuzz ON/OFF switch hahahaa... Sounds like a very nice psychedelic phaser but the mandatory fuzz trully ruins it when playing clean chords.

As well as a new HX version of the Dimension D... But I`m pretty sure that won`t happen because Boss already reissued the Dimension D under the Waza Craft line...

I`m still hoping for a Boss PH-1r... a classic which hasn´t still been released under the Waza label... maybe... I feel that Line 6 sound designers are not very fond of weird phasing tones... I like the Panned Phaser sweep (with a very slight or no panning at all), the Jet Fuzz sweep and the the Searchlights modulation sweep...

Hope the deliver something nice on the next firmware...

DI has been quiet over here for a while... he said something in advance about his favourite pet feature being included this 2.8 on other forum... But don`t quote me...

Keep on rocking in the free world!

 

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23 minutes ago, BAmartin said:

I`d love to get a new HX version of the Jet Fuzz Legacy Model... but with the Fuzz ON/OFF switch hahahaa... Sounds like a very nice psychedelic phaser but the mandatory fuzz trully ruins it when playing clean chords.

 

Are you talking about the Roland Jet Phaser model? In the original product (which I owned in the late 70's and early 80's) the phase was nothing special, it was the "JET PHASE" setting that people were after... which is likely why it was the section modeled. There are better "phase only" pedals modeled in the Helix. 

 

23 minutes ago, BAmartin said:

As well as a new HX version of the Dimension D...

 

IMO - I can't imagine anything would be better than the legacy model... it's my "go to" for chorus.

 

BUT - always room for improvement I guess. Sometimes we never know we want something until we actually have it. 

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23 minutes ago, BAmartin said:

DI has been quiet over here for a while... he said something in advance about his favourite pet feature being included this 2.8 on other forum... But don`t quote me...

Keep on rocking in the free world!

 

DI's pet feature isn't a new effect... I'd wager that no one will guess what it is. It's cool and will be useful, but I don't think it's something anyone will necessarily be expecting.

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2 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

DI's pet feature isn't a new effect... I'd wager that no one will guess what it is. It's cool and will be useful, but I don't think it's something anyone will necessarily be expecting.

 

That's got me interested :) 

Especially considering something I said directly above your post....

 

4 minutes ago, codamedia said:

Sometimes we never know we want something until we actually have it. 

 

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Perhaps I'm just a neophyte or a or a cranially challenged hick, but in my opinion a lot of the "better" argument in sounds is just human snobbery. Case in point, I vastly prefer Coke to Sam's Club Cola (and the only use I have for a Pepsi is to pee in the bottle) - but if it was Sam's Club Cola that had been invented in the dirt of Pemberton's backyard in the 19th century I'd probably prefer that. When it comes to cola, I'm kind of a snobbish prick.  At least I know it though. I hope the Coke Gods don't strike me dead for finally admitting my faith is built on bulllollipop.

 

So it is with the sounds.  Now, if you're talking about how close and accurate is the Helix to a Vox 30 compared to the old HD500x . . . well, that is a measurable scientific distance (though it brings up arguments of how much we can perceive) and I do tend to BELIEVE that the HX versions are pretty much perfect and far better than before. Maybe, though, it's a case of hearing what I expect to hear. Distortion is kind of a similar deal, if you're trying to mimic a classic distortion you can clearly have a model closer than another.

 

However, when it comes to other things like plate reverb, I tend to believe a lot of those were pretty accurate from the very beginning.

 

I mean, what about delays? A delay is a frigging repeat of your original signal a certain way. If the legacy effects did a delay THEN THEY DID A DELAY. Maybe you want a different kind of delay, different timing, more of them, etc. . . . but especially compared to the delays of the 70s there isn't that much to them.

 

I guess with digital delays you can argue that if you REALLY go back far the quality of the repeated signal to the original was reduced, but we're talking about a signal that is typically masked in the background anyway, and to top it off, the much ballyhooed analog delays were never of great quality anyway. Tube and tape echoes were even worse and people gush all over them.

 

So I guess my rant is that the legacy effects are pretty awesome. Supposedly they were beefed up in some digital way for the Helix line which makes them even better.  When I have a similar HX version, I use it unless I am searching for a lower DSP option, but I have no problem using legacy effects if they're the only choice, and I'm glad they're there.

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