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Building your tone


Haljon
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Hi all,

 

Now that 2.50 is here and I got time to spend with the Lonestar and BE100 models (my 2 fav models so far). I started creating new presets around them. I still consider myself somewhat new to the Helix and modeling, so im still not totally sure what I am doing. I have been watching a LOT of video form as many people so I can see what others do to create their tones. Im also looking up the manuals of the amp blocks I like to better understand what each knob really does. This is a big help especially for the BE100 block. The one question I have is, everyone I've watched seems to add a distortion pedal block, a number of EQ's and almost always a compressor at the end of the chain. The amp and cab blocks alone are not enough.  Im not sure I understand why so much gets added. I know tone is 100% subjective, but am I missing something here? Do I NEED a compressor at the end of my signal chain when I have a BE100 block in it? Im not really understanding the benefits from it. A common thing I would hear in these videos is to add an EQ at the end of your chain as a way to "master" your tone. Currently my chain is just the amp mod split into 2 cab models ( like to blend them) and then I add my effects (delay and reverb) and I think it sounds awesome.  I do add an EQ block just before the amp mod but it just for different guitars to EQ the pickups a little bit. A few of my guitars are really dark sounding so the EQ just brightens them up a little so the tone is more consistent between guitars. I turn that on and off depending which guitar I use. For now, my Helix LT is ruining into a small Yamaha mixer, then into a Crown 602 power amp into 2 Yamaha CV12M speakers and it sounds awesome. With the band, we use 2  Bose L1 Systems and the Helix goes right into them.  I'm just trying to learn all I can so I can spend more time playing my guitar then tweaking my presets.

 

So how do you build your tone? What blocks do you ALWAYS use and why.

 

Thanks all !!

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One approach many people take in creating patches in amp modelers is not as yourself next to an amp. They approach it as if they are in an audio control booth with the amp miced, in the studio. And as you can see with all of the mic choices, that's really what is being simulated. It's not an amp per say, but an amp that's been mic'd and being listened to in a studio control booth. This is how I tend to approach it as well. That's why people add that stuff. They are acting like they are in a studio at an audio board which is also a more accurate representation of what's being simulated here. And your setup is ideal for this approach.

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Hi all,

 

Now that 2.50 is here and I got time to spend with the Lonestar and BE100 models (my 2 fav models so far). I started creating new presets around them. I still consider myself somewhat new to the Helix and modeling, so im still not totally sure what I am doing. I have been watching a LOT of video form as many people so I can see what others do to create their tones. Im also looking up the manuals of the amp blocks I like to better understand what each knob really does. This is a big help especially for the BE100 block. The one question I have is, everyone I've watched seems to add a distortion pedal block, a number of EQ's and almost always a compressor at the end of the chain. The amp and cab blocks alone are not enough. Im not sure I understand why so much gets added. I know tone is 100% subjective, but am I missing something here? Do I NEED a compressor at the end of my signal chain when I have a BE100 block in it? Im not really understanding the benefits from it. A common thing I would hear in these videos is to add an EQ at the end of your chain as a way to "master" your tone. Currently my chain is just the amp mod split into 2 cab models ( like to blend them) and then I add my effects (delay and reverb) and I think it sounds awesome. I do add an EQ block just before the amp mod but it just for different guitars to EQ the pickups a little bit. A few of my guitars are really dark sounding so the EQ just brightens them up a little so the tone is more consistent between guitars. I turn that on and off depending which guitar I use. For now, my Helix LT is ruining into a small Yamaha mixer, then into a Crown 602 power amp into 2 Yamaha CV12M speakers and it sounds awesome. With the band, we use 2 Bose L1 Systems and the Helix goes right into them. I'm just trying to learn all I can so I can spend more time playing my guitar then tweaking my presets.

 

So how do you build your tone? What blocks do you ALWAYS use and why.

 

Thanks all !!

There's more than one way to skin a cat...

 

One of the nice things about modeling is that there are no "rules", per se. You can use as many, or as few blocks in your signal chain as you like, and arrange them in an order that might not "make sense" if you were using their real-world analog counterparts. The only thing that matters is the end result. If you like what you hear, then you're done.

 

As to your compressor question, you don't "need" one at all, necessarily. I tend to use one in front of the amp, typically on clean tones with single coil pickups for a little extra sustain. Certain other FX can cause unwanted boosts or cuts when toggled on or off, so a compressor at the end of a chain can level everything out a bit, and keep things from jumping out at you... but it really depends on what else you've got in there. It won't necessarily be something you "need".

 

It's all entirely up to you, really. Try stuff out... see what works and what doesn't. If it sounds good, it is good.

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One approach many people take in creating patches in amp modelers is not as yourself next to an amp. They approach it as if they are in an audio control booth with the amp miced, in the studio. And as you can see with all of the mic choices, that's really what is being simulated. It's not an amp per say, but an amp that's been mic'd and being listened to in a studio control booth. This is how I tend to approach it as well. That's why people add that stuff. They are acting like they are in a studio at an audio board which is also a more accurate representation of what's being simulated here. And your setup is ideal for this approach.

 

This is a good point. I understand what you are saying. I still dont understand why the need to add all the other processing to it. Every time I add the same stuff they do int the video, it (to me) seems to color the tone too much and take something away form it. If I need that much processing after my tone to make it something better, then to me im using the wrong amp block ,cab block and mic's. There are so many option between the amp block and the cab block  I almost always get a great tone without adding anything else. Do other do this too or do people feel the need to add stuff to.....get it a more polished tone? (whatever that means).

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There's more than one way to skin a cat...

 

One of the nice things about modeling is that there are no "rules", per se. You can use as many, or as few blocks in your signal chain as you like, and arrange them in an order that might not "make sense" if you were using their real-world analog counterparts. The only thing that matters is the end result. If you like what you hear, then you're done.

 

As to your compressor question, you don't "need" one at all, necessarily. I tend to use one in front of the amp, typically on clean tones with single coil pickups for a little extra sustain. Certain other FX can cause unwanted boosts or cuts, so a compressor at the end of a chain can help level things out a bit... but it really depends on what else you've got in there, and it won't necessarily be something you "need".

 

It's all entirely up to you, really. Try stuff out... see what works and what doesn't. If it sounds good, it is good.

Good point. I understand with something like the Helix, there are 100 ways to do one thing. I just want to make sure in not missing something major. Like for example, I never used to use the low and high cut on the cab blocks.  Now, EVERY preset has them on. Its just sounds so much better with them on. The Helix has so many options I just want to make sure in not missing something else as important to me as the high and low cuts.

 

Which compressor do you use? Do you mind telling me how it is set? I never used compressors before I got my Helix. I never had a need for one. 

 

Thanks

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Brue58ski is correct in that many of us that have been doing our own presets for a while tend to approach them more like you would in a studio than you would for a live performance even though they are going to be used live.  This has the benefit of presenting a more polished, professional studio version of the sound live which is what people are used to listening to on recorded music.  This is why you see some of the extra elements you see in a lot of presets.

 

I've always preferred to build my own presets, and the blocks I tend to use are determined more by the genre or feel of the song.  A rock feel will be different from a jazz feel or country feel.  So this not only determines the amps, cabinet, and other blocks I use but also determines which guitar I will use on it, and that's where the tone starts.  You can try to compensate for different guitar sounds, but unless your using a Variax or an actual guitar you're never really going to capture that sound regardless of the EQ you apply.  For example a Brad Paisley sound and a Keith Richards sound really depends on a Telecaster sound.  Likewise an old school jazz song or finger picked song like James Taylor or Chet Atkins really requires the resonance of a hollow body guitar, so I would start with my Gretsch Silver Falcon.

 

Just like the genre or feel of the song determines the guitar, it also pretty much determines which amp (and for the most part) what cabinet I'll use.  Sticking with my example above, for Keith Richards I'd probably turn to a Vox or a HiWatt whereas Brad Paisley I'd start with a Dr Z.  For Jazz I'd start with the Jazz Rivet and classic style rock probably some version of Marshall or variation.  For cabinets I'll typically use an IR, not because it's any better than a stock cab, it's just more convenient.  I have a collection of IRs that use a mixture of mic's so I can simply drop them in rather than have to tweak anything.  Most often after the cab I'll drop in a Parametric EQ block to clean up any frequency problems that need to be accentuated or reduced.  The first thing in all of my patches will be a volume pedal.  I generally prefer to place all my modulation and distortion effects just before the amp.  In some cases that require some "squishing" of the main sound such as with Rolling Stones, Who, early Doobie Bros, or funk/motown sounds I'll use a Red Squeeze or Deluxe Compressor right after my volume pedal.  Toward the end of the chain after the parametric EQ is where I put my harmonic effects such as a Dual Harmony.  If I'm not using a compressor up front, I generally place a LA Studio compressor at the very end of the chain to add the final polish to the sound.  Just prior to that is where I put my delay and reverbs.  If I'm going to have both delay and reverb mixed I'll split the chain and mix them just before the final compressor.

 

That's more or less a general outline of how I construct my patches, but there's still a lot of variation depending on the style and genre of the patch.  Since I build a patch per song, there's a pretty wide variety of different components and amp/cab/mics I'll use as well as effects.

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Good point. I understand with something like the Helix, there are 100 ways to do one thing. I just want to make sure in not missing something major. Like for example, I never used to use the low and high cut on the cab blocks. Now, EVERY preset has them on. Its just sounds so much better with them on. The Helix has so many options I just want to make sure in not missing something else as important to me as the high and low cuts.

Yeah, this is as close to a "necessity" as you'll get, especially if you're running through an FRFR speaker(s)...a "real" guitar cabinet will make a lot of those cuts for you.

 

Which compressor do you use? Do you mind telling me how it is set? I never used compressors before I got my Helix. I never had a need for one.

Settings will vary, and I'm not in front of my Helix just now, but its usually the Deluxe comp, or the LA studio.

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Brue58ski is correct in that many of us that have been doing our own presets for a while tend to approach them more like you would in a studio than you would for a live performance even though they are going to be used live.  This has the benefit of presenting a more polished, professional studio version of the sound live which is what people are used to listening to on recorded music.  This is why you see some of the extra elements you see in a lot of presets.

 

I've always preferred to build my own presets, and the blocks I tend to use are determined more by the genre or feel of the song.  A rock feel will be different from a jazz feel or country feel.  So this not only determines the amps, cabinet, and other blocks I use but also determines which guitar I will use on it, and that's where the tone starts.  You can try to compensate for different guitar sounds, but unless your using a Variax or an actual guitar you're never really going to capture that sound regardless of the EQ you apply.  For example a Brad Paisley sound and a Keith Richards sound really depends on a Telecaster sound.  Likewise an old school jazz song or finger picked song like James Taylor or Chet Atkins really requires the resonance of a hollow body guitar, so I would start with my Gretsch Silver Falcon.

 

Just like the genre or feel of the song determines the guitar, it also pretty much determines which amp (and for the most part) what cabinet I'll use.  Sticking with my example above, for Keith Richards I'd probably turn to a Vox or a HiWatt whereas Brad Paisley I'd start with a Dr Z.  For Jazz I'd start with the Jazz Rivet and classic style rock probably some version of Marshall or variation.  For cabinets I'll typically use an IR, not because it's any better than a stock cab, it's just more convenient.  I have a collection of IRs that use a mixture of mic's so I can simply drop them in rather than have to tweak anything.  Most often after the cab I'll drop in a Parametric EQ block to clean up any frequency problems that need to be accentuated or reduced.  The first thing in all of my patches will be a volume pedal.  I generally prefer to place all my modulation and distortion effects just before the amp.  In some cases that require some "squishing" of the main sound such as with Rolling Stones, Who, early Doobie Bros, or funk/motown sounds I'll use a Red Squeeze or Deluxe Compressor right after my volume pedal.  Toward the end of the chain after the parametric EQ is where I put my harmonic effects such as a Dual Harmony.  If I'm not using a compressor up front, I generally place a LA Studio compressor at the very end of the chain to add the final polish to the sound.  Just prior to that is where I put my delay and reverbs.  If I'm going to have both delay and reverb mixed I'll split the chain and mix them just before the final compressor.

 

That's more or less a general outline of how I construct my patches, but there's still a lot of variation depending on the style and genre of the patch.  Since I build a patch per song, there's a pretty wide variety of different components and amp/cab/mics I'll use as well as effects.

 

This is great information. Please understand I come from a metal background where I was using high gain, delay and reverb. Thats all. My current band is James Taylor, Jackson Brown, Linda Ronstadt and Carly Simon songs. Not high gain tunes at all. Lots of cleans and low gain. This is all new to me. 

 

For the EQ you said you put in your chain to "clean up any frequency problems that need to be accentuated or reduced"   What are the frequencies in a guitar tone and need to be reduced/dealt with? Are there Common ones? or is it just subjective?

 

Also, why the volume pedal? What do you use it for? Im sorry of these seem like dumb questions, I normally would just plug in and use my volume knob in my guitar to kill the signal in between songs. Never really used it for anything more then that.

 

​And thanks Everyone for the info, im learning alot already.

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I come from a metal background where I was using high gain, delay and reverb. Thats all. My current band is James Taylor, Jackson Brown, Linda Ronstadt and Carly Simon songs.

Lose a bet? 😉. Just kidding. I was a metal goon for many years, too...and while I will always have a soft spot for old school Metallica and the like, now I listen to a lot of country, and tend to favor bluesier, more melodic stuff over the shredding. My younger self would have kicked my a$$...😂

 

Also, why the volume pedal? What do you use it for? Im sorry of these seem like dumb questions, I normally would just plug in and use my volume knob in my guitar to kill the signal in between songs. Never really used it for anything more then that.

At the beginning of the chain a volume pedal is essentially doing the same thing as the guitar's volume knob... if you want to clean your tone up a bit, this'll free up your right hand... just do it with your foot.

 

At the end of the chain it can be a nice thing to have if you want to do some quick volume swells without changing the tone as you roll on and off. Done right, you can *almost* get an ebow effect happening. Use sparingly...as with those suffering from wah addiction, to many volume swells, and everything you play starts to sound the same, lol.

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Great topic, and excellent responses contributed, offering excellent advice and guidance.

 

All I can say to reinforce the above is that my initial test patches for a given amp or similar are super simple - amp, cab(s), pre-amp gain/character booster like an overdrive, delay, and reverb.

Really naked, relatively speaking.

That lets me get to know the amp (or effect if that's what I'm test-driving).

I'll go about seeing which drive and similar effects interact to my liking with the front end of the amp (amazing how lifelike this process is; in one instance it might be a Stupor, another the Screamer, others (and honestly - quite often) the Minotaur)...

Then I play it, and hit it with different instruments (Ibanez 6 and 7-string 'shredders,' Telecasters) and see what it does.

 

The evolution toward performance-readiness typically adds in more options for ambience or special effects... I always have a wah ready to go. Master volume type block / solo boost function... sometimes this is where things like compressors and EQs come into play, in order to fine-tune and hone the end result.

 

But starting just as you have is an excellent way to see the relatively raw character of the signal path - the rest is often just massaging.

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This is great information. Please understand I come from a metal background where I was using high gain, delay and reverb. Thats all. My current band is James Taylor, Jackson Brown, Linda Ronstadt and Carly Simon songs. Not high gain tunes at all. Lots of cleans and low gain. This is all new to me. 

 

For the EQ you said you put in your chain to "clean up any frequency problems that need to be accentuated or reduced"   What are the frequencies in a guitar tone and need to be reduced/dealt with? Are there Common ones? or is it just subjective?

 

Also, why the volume pedal? What do you use it for? Im sorry of these seem like dumb questions, I normally would just plug in and use my volume knob in my guitar to kill the signal in between songs. Never really used it for anything more then that.

 

​And thanks Everyone for the info, im learning alot already.

 

As far as EQ it tends to vary and is somewhat subjective, but there are some common points to consider.  Obviously high and low cuts and you'll find the high and low cuts in the Parametric EQ to have much steeper slopes than the ones in the cabinets so they're a bit more accurate for getting rid of piercing highs but still retaining some of the good highs.  Strats and Teles can sometimes benefit from slight cuts in the 2000Hz range to give them more beef, and 500Hz is a good place for cuts to reduce muddiness.  Other than that it's all by ear and varies guitar to guitar, amp to amp, cab to cab and mic to mic....so just use your ears.

 

Because I swap guitars quite a bit in performances I've just found it easier to kill the sound using the volume pedal when I swap guitars so I don't have to worry about cable noise.  It's either full on or full off as I don't use it at all to control volume.

 

Actually I feel you'll benefit greatly from this new group and develop an entirely different set of guitar skills and techniques which will add to your value.  Personally I think the value of a guitar player is based on how flexible and adaptable they are, not on how much they've mastered one specific style.  At one point many, many moons ago I was firmly committed to being a Rock God.  Once I branched out a bit I found a LOT more opportunities in different bands and in studio work.  So good luck.

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Lose a bet? . Just kidding. I was a metal goon for many years, too...and while I will always have a soft spot for old school Metallica and the like, now I listen to a lot of country, and tend to favor bluesier, more melodic stuff over the shredding. My younger self would have kicked my a$$...

 

 

Yeah...the loser of the bet had to join a band where he could actually get paid and make money...   :lol:

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As far as EQ it tends to vary and is somewhat subjective, but there are some common points to consider.  Obviously high and low cuts and you'll find the high and low cuts in the Parametric EQ to have much steeper slopes than the ones in the cabinets so they're a bit more accurate for getting rid of piercing highs but still retaining some of the good highs.  Strats and Teles can sometimes benefit from slight cuts in the 2000Hz range to give them more beef, and 500Hz is a good place for cuts to reduce muddiness.  Other than that it's all by ear and varies guitar to guitar, amp to amp, cab to cab and mic to mic....so just use your ears.

 

Because I swap guitars quite a bit in performances I've just found it easier to kill the sound using the volume pedal when I swap guitars so I don't have to worry about cable noise.  It's either full on or full off as I don't use it at all to control volume.

 

Actually I feel you'll benefit greatly from this new group and develop an entirely different set of guitar skills and techniques which will add to your value.  Personally I think the value of a guitar player is based on how flexible and adaptable they are, not on how much they've mastered one specific style.  At one point many, many moons ago I was firmly committed to being a Rock God.  Once I branched out a bit I found a LOT more opportunities in different bands and in studio work.  So good luck.

 

Very true. I have already benefited form this a lot. I am a much better player now then I was before. NEVER did those "country bends" before but now, im getting them down.......There are a LOT of great players and song from those artists. 

 

Did I lose a bet?  that was funny. Cheers !! No, I just love to play my guitar and just love music..All music. My heart will always be metal, but I love it all. I am very lucky to have found the players in my band now and could not pass on this learning experience. It also opened me up to some amazing music and players that I might not have heard. Its just a lot more complex then a high gain and clean tone.

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I am a low-mid gain player, P&W mostly at this time. My current Main Preset within the Helix (may change a little this weekend after playing with new amp, reverbs, and delay):

 

Kinky boost (always on)> Kinky comp>volume pedal> Minotaur> TS808> Litigator Amp> One of the new reverbs (mono)> split

 

split A: Marshall Basketweave IR

 

split B: Opti Trem> Bubble Trem> Grey Flanger> Simple Delay> Tape Echo Delay> DrZ 2x12 IR

 

Stomps assigned to: comp, Minotaur, 808, Opti trem, bubble trem, flanger, simple delay, tape echo, LONG/SHORT (for delay mix/feedback)

EXP1 volume

EXP2 amp drive/master/channel volume

EXP3 trem speed, tape echo feedback, some other things I can't remember now

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I am a low-mid gain player, P&W mostly at this time. My current Main Preset within the Helix (may change a little this weekend after playing with new amp, reverbs, and delay):

 

Kinky boost (always on)> Kinky comp>volume pedal> Minotaur> TS808> Litigator Amp> One of the new reverbs (mono)> split

 

split A: Marshall Basketweave IR

 

split B: Opti Trem> Bubble Trem> Grey Flanger> Simple Delay> Tape Echo Delay> DrZ 2x12 IR

 

Stomps assigned to: comp, Minotaur, 808, Opti trem, bubble trem, flanger, simple delay, tape echo, LONG/SHORT (for delay mix/feedback)

EXP1 volume

EXP2 amp drive/master/channel volume

EXP3 trem speed, tape echo feedback, some other things I can't remember now

What is P&W?

 

I really like the tone of the Litigator as well. Great sounding amp block.

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