No More Tones (or Tears)....good starting point?

[themetallikid]

So, you can spare the usual responses:

 

1) Your not Zakk Wylde so you wont sound like him anyway

2) Unless your using a Les Paul with his pickups, picks, technique, hands, etc....it's not going to matter anyway

3) Insert other usual responses here

 

 

I think I remember hearing as a kid that his tone was really just a Les Paul into a Marshall Stack with a chorus pedal.  Of course I'm sure there are some effects done in processing as I can hear delays/reverbs.  But the core of the sound (IIRC) was just guitar > pedal > amp.

 

So when I listened to this album again, I noticed his guitar has a double tracked or slight delayed sound.  I'm not sure if this is the chorus that is creating that pitch shifted sound.  if it really is double tracked, or if there is something else. 

 

Can someone recommend some settings to get this sort of raw (but effected) sound? 

[spikey]

3) Insert other usual responses here

 

 

OK I will, Most (lots of) recordings of major guitar players are double-tracked (or more), and the same goes for vocal tracks as well. IIRC there are some VST's/AU effects that mimic this but for the life of me, I don't remember their names atm. You might try and play with copying a guitar track and then moving it a tiny bit "out of phase" ever so slightly. As far as doing this in Helix, a lil bit of a chorus setting perhaps?

[themetallikid]

That's a fair response, lol.....I did open up to that with #3. 

 

I guess I was looking more for decent amp/cab information to get that crunch/grind/clarity that he has.  He definitely has a double tracked guitar or pitch shifted effect to give him that sound.  I can use the double take, or a chorus/pitch effect to get that part...easy enough, but his gain staging with the amp is what I'm after.  I don't recall reading that he 'boosted' the amp, but I wouldn't be surprised. 

 

 

I have not had a chance to make use of my friend google yet on his sound with that album, but will.  Just didn't know if anyone had any suggestions.  Sometimes on his sound you almost can't hear the chorusy effect until the chord is almost rung out you hear a bit of phasey effect, which maybe makes me think its double tracked as opposed to just pitched +/- with an effect.  I'm not very versed in the 80's style thick guitar sound settings using a chorus/pitch effect.  But I'm gonna start playing with it.

[lungho]

From what I remember, he was using a JCM 800 with a cabinet that had 200 Watt ElectroVoice speakers.  And I believe he used a modded Boss SD-1 Overdrive along with the obvious, a Boss CH-1 Super Chorus.  My knowledge is from old guitar magazines from that era, so take it with a grain of salt.  A lot of misinformation was floating around back then.

[jbuhajla]

From what I remember, he was using a JCM 800 with a cabinet that had 200 Watt ElectroVoice speakers.  And I believe he used a modded Boss SD-1 Overdrive along with the obvious, a Boss CH-1 Super Chorus.  My knowledge is from old guitar magazines from that era, so take it with a grain of salt.  A lot of misinformation was floating around back then.

I believe that is correct. I believe EMG pickups in his LPs as well, but those are not something you can emulate in Helix :)

[themetallikid]

I have EMG's, so that part I've got....Your information matches what I remember from those articles as well.  JCM800, I was missing the DS1, but that was a popular pedal back then so now with the Legacy update, maybe I can match that better. 

 

Anything stock or IR specific for the cab sim?  I'm sure I can just cycle through them til I find one that works....

[lungho]

I decided to experiment a little bit and I had the best luck with the Allure_90's_CaliV_30 IR from the Line 6's free Allure pack, which you can pick up here: https://line6.com/allure/

 

I also learned that Zakk only used the chorus pedal live to reproduce the sound/space you hear in the studio from the double tracked guitars.  I used the pitch shift block to somewhat replicate this.  You get that space that's normally provided by the chorusing effect, but without the warble.  Turn off the overdrive and roll off the volume, and things clean up nicely.

 

I'll provide a link to my patch but keep in mind this is my first (and probably only) stab at this.  Also, I used a PRS Custom 24, which doesn't have active pickups, and a QSC K10.2 for my monitor.  There is also no EQ or compression added to the patch.  To me, it sounds big and larger than life but YMMV, depending on your setup.  I am also on Firmware 2.50.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/92j9k6atu921qih/Zakk.hlx?dl=0

 

 

 

[themetallikid]

Sweet, I'll have to check that out and do my own homework.  I figured its a pretty straightforward sound and should be pretty simple to get in the ballpark. 

 

 

Another reason this forum rocks. 

[j_hotch]

Take a listen to the new Double Take effect.  It might give you what you need.  Good luck!

[ric1966]

Two thoughts... a split path with an 8 msec simple delay on the lower, zero feedback, mix 100%, panned full right. Pan the other leg after the split (original signal) full left. I saw this trick in a YouTube vid re John Petrucci tone. Second, the Celestion Redback IRs are based on a 150W speaker that may come close to the EVs Zakk was using. I tend to favor their “high gain†mix IRs which use a combination of R121, MD421 and SM57 mics. The 4x12 closed back version will probably be the best one.

[themetallikid]

So Saturday during the day I was stuck at my mother in laws house before the gig.....I pulled my Helix out and thought, I know the components I want in this preset, lets get the bones installed and I can tweak to my ear later at the gig.  So I did....

 

added the Brit 2204, added a stereo cab with V30/T75 combo (both with a 57 close mic'd, low cut at 80hz) Bass 6ish, gain 6ish, mids 8ish

added the Stupor OD, gain 0, level 10, tone 7 in front of the amp

added a 10 band EQ after for some post tweakage (I like adding a bump at 125hz)

added pitch block in stereo L -6 R+5 (these are just rough numbers not sure what I actually put in)

added a stereo reverb 2nd to the end

added a stereo delay last

added the Dimension chorus (switch 1) mix about 30% (before the reverb)

 

I then created Snapshots for Clean/Gritty/Crunch/Boosted with the above settings as my Crunch.  Snapshots only adjusted the gain and Amp EQ to keep the feel, and turn on the chorus (Clean) and the Pitch Shift (Crunch/Boosted snaps)

 

Now mind you, I did not have a guitar with me when I set this patch up, it was from experience and my eyes only.  After I made sure the preset volume wasn't drastically different than rest of my patches, I tried it out before soundcheck.  I'll be damned if I wasn't not only in the ballpark, but there were only some minimal tweaks that I needed which I expected to get the snapshots to flow correctly gain stage from Crunch > Boost.

 

Although, setting up this patch from scratch like this, made an issue with my wireless very apparent....ugh...I now need to figure that out before I can do further tweaks.

[JYD87]

Anyone else try some settings?  I'mma try those above.  

[themetallikid]

Good luck, i forgot about that preset I did while I was bored, at my in-laws house at the time.   lol

[themetallikid]

I would probably use the Placatar Dirty amp this time though.....Saturation on, bump the sag a bit (6.5), tighten the bias a bit (4.0).  Master about 8ish.   

 

Just guessing as I'm at work.....