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2.53 Issues (gain blocks and MIDI PC)

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I'm experiencing two issues in 2.53 that I'm pretty sure are NOT in my head:

 

Issue experienced while programming presets with H9 being controlled via Helix MIDI for program changes, etc.

 

-  At times when switching between snapshots, all Distortion blocks will be turned on, when - previously on that Snapshot, specific Distortion blocks had been assigned/selected

 

-  MIDI Program Change messages being sent by Instant Commands on Snapshots are being changed/re-assigned.  Most recent time it happened was when I was setting up a new Snapshot to send PC Instant command to select preset on the H9.  Where, previously - Snapshots had been setup to send:

    Snapshot 1: PC 0

    Snapshot 2: PC 0

    Snapshot 3: PC 1

    Snapshot 4: PC 2

 

After the new Snapshot (6) add been setup to send PC 9; all other Snapshots were now setup to send PC 1

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So I haven't run into the issue as of yet with the distortion blocks, but I have been having an issue with the MIDI program changes.  I contacted Line 6 yesterday and I'm waiting to hear back from them.  I'll post a video below demonstrating how it seems that program changes are causing things to bug out.  Did you ever figure out a solution?

 

One of the weird things I noticed is that when I viewed things through MIDI Monitor: there were times when hitting a snapshot would send a ton more extra data then it looks like it should (around 4:30 in my video).  In my opinion it definitely looks like there is a bug that needs to be worked out of the system.  Let me know how things are working for you :-)

 

https://youtu.be/i_EUtOd-y60

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57 minutes ago, swanny8777 said:

So I haven't run into the issue as of yet with the distortion blocks, but I have been having an issue with the MIDI program changes.  I contacted Line 6 yesterday and I'm waiting to hear back from them.  I'll post a video below demonstrating how it seems that program changes are causing things to bug out.  Did you ever figure out a solution?

 

One of the weird things I noticed is that when I viewed things through MIDI Monitor: there were times when hitting a snapshot would send a ton more extra data then it looks like it should (around 4:30 in my video).  In my opinion it definitely looks like there is a bug that needs to be worked out of the system.  Let me know how things are working for you :-)

 

https://youtu.be/i_EUtOd-y60

 

The thing to realize with assigning CCs to Instant Commands is that when you switch snapshots, the value that you have set in each snapshot for each CC is being shot out. So you mentioned in the video that a certain CC is assigned to a certain snapshot... That's not really how it works. That CC is set for that Instant Command for the entire preset. You need to go set a specific value for that CC in each snapshot then.

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8 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

The thing to realize with assigning CCs to Instant Commands is that when you switch snapshots, the value that you have set in each snapshot for each CC is being shot out. So you mentioned in the video that a certain CC is assigned to a certain snapshot... That's not really how it works. That CC is set for that Instant Command for the entire preset. You need to go set a specific value for that CC in each snapshot then.

 

Thanks, Phil!  Yeah, I realize that when a CC is created in Instant Command it is present on all snapshots;  one of the big things that isn't functioning as it should (as far as I know) is that when one of my snapshots 1 thru 4 are pressed, CC numbers are firing with values of 127 that should be set to 0 prior to firing the correct CCs and values (this is demonstrated in the last minute of my video), causing tracks in Ableton to restart.  I also documented this via MIDI Monitor.  Any idea of why this might be happening on my unit?

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25 minutes ago, swanny8777 said:

 

Thanks, Phil!  Yeah, I realize that when a CC is created in Instant Command it is present on all snapshots;  one of the big things that isn't functioning as it should (as far as I know) is that when one of my snapshots 1 thru 4 are pressed, CC numbers are firing with values of 127 that should be set to 0 prior to firing the correct CCs and values (this is demonstrated in the last minute of my video), causing tracks in Ableton to restart.  I also documented this via MIDI Monitor.  Any idea of why this might be happening on my unit?

 

Sorry... I have to confess that I didn't watch your video the whole way through the first time. Have you tried running the MIDI monitor without having Ableton open? I kind of suspect that what you're talking about might have to do with MIDI over USB and Ableton mirroring commands it's receiving. I vaguely remember reading about someone else running into this.

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On 4/25/2018 at 6:44 PM, phil_m said:

 

Sorry... I have to confess that I didn't watch your video the whole way through the first time. Have you tried running the MIDI monitor without having Ableton open? I kind of suspect that what you're talking about might have to do with MIDI over USB and Ableton mirroring commands it's receiving. I vaguely remember reading about someone else running into this.

 

No worries, Phil, it was a long video (I added time stamps to try to help with that, lol)!  I wasn’t aware of an issue of Ableton mirroring commands;  I performed many of the same tests while running MIDI messages via USB into MIDI Monitor without Ableton running (an additional difference is that in my video I was running MIDI from the Helix via a MIDI cable into a M-Audio Midisport then from there into the computer via USB; I did this because sometimes when I run the MIDI into Ableton directly via USB it causes some freaking out issues… perhaps this is the mirroring you were discussing).  With the simplified setup I’m still running into the same issues.  I created a backup and tried a couple of factory resets with similar results dealing with what I feel are bugs in the system:

 

After booting while holding down footswitches 11 + 12:

Still multiple firings of mixed CC data

Adding a Program Change resets my CC values to zero

Adding a CC toggle to footswitch in stomp mode resets my CC values

 

After performing a factory reset (holding down footswitches 9 + 10):

Still multiple firings of mixed CC data

Occasional re-firings of PC data for snapshots which have PC set to off in command center

Adding a CC toggle to footswitch in stomp mode resets my CC values (one snapshot retained its CC value) and my PC values

 

Not sure what other steps there are for me to try out, any ideas?  Thanks again for your time and help! :-)

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I experience the exact same problem.
I use Helix in Snapshot mode and via the Instants I switch my H&K Switchblade and a Whammy DT. Both with Program Change messages.

 

Therefore I need 3 Instants: 

  • Instant 1: MIDI CH 1 - Amp switching
  • Instant 2: MIDI CH 3 - Whammy Section switching
  • Instant 3: MIDI CH 3 - DropTune Section switching

So far, so good. I got my Helix in March, updated it to 2.53, looked for an amp and cab that sounds close to mine in the rehearsal room and set up my presets.
Sounds: check. Then I copied my Presets, exchanged the ampsim for a loop, got rid of the cabsim, programmed the Instants and were good to go.

 

 

First rehearsal: Everything's up and running, no issues - I love when a plan comes together.

 

Second rehearsal: Suddenly the amp stutters, when it's switched

 

Troubleshooting:

Change MIDI Cable - still stutters

Connect MIDI Cable directly with Helix - still stutters

Changing from Clean (Ampsim) to OD (H&K) [in the same Preset] - stutter 

Changing from OD (H&K) to Clean (Ampsim) [in the same Preset] - no stutter

Changing from Cln/Crnch (H&K) to OD (H&K) [in the same Preset] - stutter
Changing from Cln/Crnch (H&K) to OD (H&K) [in another Preset] - no stutter

 

Visiting my Testcenter (Preset with no Instants, The Footswitches send Program Change messages to switch my Amp)

Everything works fine. No stutter at all.

 

"Have you tried to turn it on and off again?" - "Umm, no. Okay, let's restart the thing."

 

Everything worked as it should...

 

Third rehearsal: The amp stutters, when it's switched. Multiple restarts don't help "Guess I'll have to live with it today"

 

At home:

Installed MIDI OX to monitor what "lil' Helix - the PCM Gangsta" tells my gear via MIDI.

"Aha. So you're sending your messages up to three times. You really want to be heard, don't you?"

 

Deleted all Instants. 

Setting up the first:

  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 (Snapshots 1-8) -> 1 PCM send when switching, looks good. save.

Setting up the second:

  • CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21 -> 2 PCM send when switching. That's bad. It should be 2-1-2-2-2-2-2-2, checking first Instant.
  • CH1, Program: 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 -> okay, let's re-edit.
  • -> Changing Snapshot 2 from 0 to off -> now let's check the other values
  • CH1, Program: off - off - off - off - off - off - off - off 
  • Checking the sent Messages: everything doubled. okay. let's re-edit Instant 1 anyway.
  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21
  • Checking the sent Messages:
    • Pressing Snap 1: 4 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH1|0, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 2: 3 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|21) - ??? - let's hit it again
    • Pressing Snap 2: 2 messages (CH3|21, CH3|21) - seems more legit
    • Pressing Snap 3: 3 messages (CH3|21, CH1|0, CH3|21) - okay, hit it again 
    • Pressing Snap 3: 4 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH1|0, CH3|21) - at least some consistency
    • Pressing Snap 4: 4 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH1|0, CH3|21) - as I expected
    • Pressing Snap 5: 4 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH1|1, CH3|21) - not as I expected
    • Pressing Snap 6: 4 messages (CH1|1, CH3|21, CH1|1, CH3|21) - as I expected
    • Pressing Snap 7: 4 messages (CH1|1, CH3|21, CH1|0, CH3|21) - eventually, I now was expecting this
    • Pressing Snap 8: 4 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH1|0, CH3|21)
    • Okay. Pressing Snap 1, Hit save 2 times, change preset and go right back again
    • Pressing Pres up: 2 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21) + 4 messages (Helix Preset changing)

Let's set up the third:

 

  • Turning the Command knob of Instant 3 resets Instant 1 to 
    CH1, Program: 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0, Instant 2 doesn't seem to be effected
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21
  • Okay, re-edit -> Changing Snapshot 2 from 0 to off -> now let's check the other values
  • CH1, Program: off - off - off - off - off - off - off - off, continuing re-edit
  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21
    CH3, Program 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67
  • Checking the sent Messages:
    • Pressing Snap 1: 6 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67, CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 2: 4 messages (CH3|21, CH3|67, CH3|21, CH3|67) - Hey, the unexpected CH1 message disappeared
    • Pressing Snap 3: 6 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67, CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 4: 6 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67, CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 5: 6 messages (CH1|1, CH3|21, CH3|67, CH1|1, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 6: 6 messages (CH1|1, CH3|21, CH3|67, CH1|1, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 7: 6 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67, CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 8: 6 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67, CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Okay. Pressing Snap 1, Hit save 2 times, change preset and go right back again
    • Pressing Pres up: 3 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67) + 4 messages (Helix Preset changing)

Now let's delete Instant 3

  • Checking the sent Messages:
    • Pressing Snap 1: 2 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 2: 1 messages (CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 3: 2 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 4: 2 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 5: 2 messages (CH1|1, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 6: 2 messages (CH1|1, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 7: 2 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 8: 2 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21)
    • Okay, might be a workaround.

Reloading the Preset and adding a fourth Instant command

  • Turning the Command knob of Instant 4
    CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21
    CH3, Program 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - hey, nice...
  • deleting Instant 4
  • Checking the sent Messages:
    • Pressing Snap 1: 3 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 2: 2 messages (CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 3: 3 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 4: 3 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 5: 3 messages (CH1|1, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 6: 3 messages (CH1|1, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 7: 3 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67)
    • Pressing Snap 8: 3 messages (CH1|0, CH3|21, CH3|67)

Okay, let's make it interesting

  • Change Instant 3 on Snap 8 to 46
  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21
    CH3, Program 66 - 66 - 66 - 66 - 66 - 66 - 66 - 46 - ???
  • re-editing Instant 3 Snap 1 - Snap 7 to 67
  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21
    CH3, Program 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 46
  • Turning the Command knob of Instant 4
    CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21
    CH3, Program 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - whispering the beginning of Slipknot's 'Duality'
  • Re-edit Instant 3 on Snap 8 to 46
    CH3, Program 66 - 66 - 66 - 66 - 66 - 66 - 66 - 46
  • re-editing Instant 3 Snap 1 - Snap 7 to 67
  • deleting Instant 4
  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21
    CH3, Program 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - I'm getting to Limp Bizkit's 'Break Stuff', the chainsaw part...

Obviously, it doesn't want me to make changes on the last Instant, so let's swap Instant 2 and 3

  • CH1, Program: 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 00 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21 - lollipop you Helix. Really, lollipop you, you lollipopin' lollipop
  • re-editing
  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 46
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21
  • Turning the Command knob of Instant 4
  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21 - okay...
  • re-editing
  • deleting Instant 4
  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21
  • Okay. Turning the Command knob of Instant 4. re-editing
  • changing all the 21s to 22s and back again
  • deleting Instant 4
  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 46
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21 - nice...
  • Checking the sent Messages:
    • Pressing Snap 1: 6 messages (CH1|0, CH3|67, CH3|21, CH1|0, CH3|67, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 2: 4 messages (CH3|67, CH3|21, CH3|67, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 3: 6 messages (CH1|0, CH3|67, CH3|21, CH1|0, CH3|67, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 4: 6 messages (CH1|0, CH3|67, CH3|21, CH1|0, CH3|67, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 5: 6 messages (CH1|1, CH3|67, CH3|21, CH1|1, CH3|67, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 6: 6 messages (CH1|1, CH3|67, CH3|21, CH1|1, CH3|67, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 7: 6 messages (CH1|0, CH3|67, CH3|21, CH1|0, CH3|67, CH3|21)
    • Pressing Snap 8: 6 messages (CH1|0, CH3|67, CH3|21, CH1|0, CH3|46, CH3|21)
    • Okay. Pressing Snap 1, Hit save 2 times, change preset and go right back again
    • Pressing Pres up: 3 messages (CH1|0, CH3|67, CH3|21) + 4 messages (Helix Preset changing)
  • Turning the Command knob of Instant 4, re-editing, turning the Command knob of Instant 5, re-editing
  • Deleting Instant 5
  • Checking the sent Messages: as above
  • Deleting Instant 4
  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46 - 46
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21
  • Turning the Command knob of Instant 4, re-editing, turning the Command knob of Instant 5, re-editing
  • Deleting Instant 5
  • Checking the sent Messages: as above
  • changing every value by 1 and back again - checking on send messages, everything gets send 3 times (could I get 4x?)
  • Deleting Instant 4
  • CH1, Program: 0 - off - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0
    CH3, Program 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67 - 67
    CH3, Program: 21 - 21 - 21 - 21 -21 -21 - 21 - 21

 

Yeah, that's it, tried to get Swanny's CC setup to work properly, It seems you can't get it working with two or more values that change, no matter if you use PC or CC or mixed things.

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I would say this sort of stuff warrants opening up a support ticket, as it's very hard to troubleshoot it in the context of the forum. I'm sorry, but the pages of text are not helping me understand the issue. I would say either call support or open up a ticket and go from there. If you want to post some patches, I can take a look at them and mess around a MIDI monitor on my end.

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Thank you for your answer phil_m.

I did open up a support ticket this morning.
I know it's a long text and I'm a bit sorry for that, but I just wanted to give every Information I have on the behaviour of my helix - and a little commentary, so that it is not too boring.

To be honest, I'm really glad, that I'm not the only one with this problem. I struggle with it for about two or three weeks, searched the Internet and just yesterday I found this thread.

 

Yeah, the problem is the strange behaviour as soon as there is more than 1 Instant.
I could post a patch, but my little protocol post was done on a blank preset, so I don't think it would be of any use.

Also it seems to be a pretty rare problem. I mean you could try to recreate it on your helix. Maybe I just got a "monday-model" as we say in germany.

I also reseted my unit a few times, that didn't help.
Today I rolled back the firmware step by step and with 2.30 everything worked perfectly.
What really puzzles me is the fact, that in the beginning everything was alright and on the second rehearsal the problem occured and could be fixed via restarting the unit.

Well, time will tell.

 

Thanks for the support! :-)

P.S. I like how the forum changes f*** to lollipop

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Ha!  Wow Saxer, that's a ton of info!  I can't really talk though-my video was fifteen minutes long!  Like you, I'm glad (I use that word loosely) to hear someone else shares the same issue.  Like Phil suggested, I did send a support ticket and received this response:

 

"I'm sorry about the trouble with your gear. Thanks for the detailed info. We are aware of these midi bugs and have them logged. A fix will be implemented in a future release. Thanks for your patience while we sort this out."

 

Not sure how long the wait will be until the "future release" arrives, but I'm hoping soon :-)  Thanks Phil and Saxer for your input!

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