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MarkJarvis

Use EQ globally or as a block or not at all?

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Hi All, sure you have discusse dthis before but..

Do you use EQ globally or as a block or not at all? 

 

The reason I ask this is when i hear guitar players not using Line 6 Helix they seem to have a more mid range sound and when I hear Helix (most of the time) its like the sound of it has a EQ curse that ..well is lacking that mid range. So if you see that too do you add a global EQ or EQ in line in a block? Its kinda like when you add a good IR  thats been properly mic in the studio with EQ.

https://hearthis.at/joejeffries/sumo-2018-3-16/  (latest recording) our post process deals with this but i want to have a more pleasing sound during our session

Someone described it as a kinda a scooping EQ (describing Line 6 sound by default

 

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I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to as a "Line 6 cursed" sound missing mid-range.  I get precisely the sound I design in the preset I'm playing through.  It's only missing mid-range if the design of my signal chain is such that it's missing mid-range.

Maybe what you're referring to is what some people reference as the "amp in the room" sound you get from a real, physical stage amp.  If that's the sound you want, send your Helix through the effects return of a real amp.  Be advised, however, that once you actually mic that stage amp for the PA or for a recording the sound your audience will be hearing will NOT be the amp in the room sound.  It will be the amp being mic'd and will be dependent upon the mic used and it's placement on the speakers.  No one other than the person standing near the amp in the room will ever hear the amp in the room sound.  Recorded  or live through the FOH they will hear the mic'd amp in the room sound.

As for those of us using the HELIX with a FRFR style speaker, we're interested in getting a studio or live sound...the same sound our audience will be hearing.  And it's only missing mids if that's what we dialed into the preset.  The sound is entirely dependent on the expertise of the person building it.  That being said, I would NEVER use the global EQ for anything other than correcting for the acoustics in the room, and generally not even that if I were going through a PA.  I would depend on the sound man to correct for the acoustics of the room on every channel, not just mine.  There is no common or global EQ setup that can work for every possible combination of guitar, pickup, amp, cab/ir, or mic'ing scenario because they will all have different EQ needs.

The factors that affect your sound aren't dependent on the Helix, they're dependent upon the guitar being used, it's pickups, the amp model you select, the cab or IR you select, the mic, mic mixture and mic placements you select and any other specific EQ corrections you might apply in the signal chain.  The limit isn't the Helix, it's in the expertise of the person designing the patch on the Helix.

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Hi..no thats not what i am saying at all...when i hear helix and compare to say AXFX or others i 'hear' a big difference in the default

EQ of an amp and cab. In the other systems there is not this kinda eq smiley face that Line 6 has (no not using global eq or block)

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I'm still struggling to understand what you're describing.  By 'default EQ of an amp and cab' do you mean the setup of the defaults on an amp+cab model?  If so, that may be true as I've never used an amp+cab model.  I only use separate amp and cab/dual cab or IR blocks so I may not have experienced what you're describing since the cab/IR block does a lot of the initial EQ'ing of the sound so I really don't experience the 'eq smiley face' which I assume means higher peaks on the low and high frequencies and a lower valley on the mids.

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factory default parameters for particular amp models will be different from each manufacturer. It is only an issue if you are just going to use amp models with their default settings. However, that's not why we use modeling gear. If we want more/less mid range, then we adjust accordingly. 

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So no its AMP + Cab or IR (FYI so far IR's at either 1024 or 2048 sound ok but feel ..stiff..)

My observation is everything sounds (be default) like there is an over all 'scoop' EQ. 

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What are you sending the Helix output to?  Headphones/FRFR/Studio Monitors?  There are multiple suggestions for Global EQ in this forum, perhaps one of these will help.

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Helix goes XLR out to focusrite pre's (but same applies if i use SPDIF direct from helix. This cant be a mystery anyone who listens helix should hear that kind of scooped sound..I am trying global eq, block eq and IR's so far not really getting the sound i want....or at least what i hear in my head.

 

With some effort it does work out but listening to the raw amp + cabs or ir's isnt pleasing...here is my current sound  https://hearthis.at/joejeffries/sumo-2018-3-16/

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21 minutes ago, MarkJarvis said:

Helix goes XLR out to focusrite pre's (but same applies if i use SPDIF direct from helix. This cant be a mystery anyone who listens helix should hear that kind of scooped sound.

Well it's a mystery to me....my tone only sounds scooped if I've scooped it...

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18 hours ago, MarkJarvis said:

Helix goes XLR out to focusrite pre's (but same applies if i use SPDIF direct from helix. This cant be a mystery anyone who listens helix should hear that kind of scooped sound..I am trying global eq, block eq and IR's so far not really getting the sound i want....or at least what i hear in my head.

 

With some effort it does work out but listening to the raw amp + cabs or ir's isnt pleasing...here is my current sound  https://hearthis.at/joejeffries/sumo-2018-3-16/

Are you monitoring through powered PA speakers, studio monitors, headphones, etc...?

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20 hours ago, MarkJarvis said:

Helix goes XLR out to focusrite pre's (but same applies if i use SPDIF direct from helix. This cant be a mystery anyone who listens helix should hear that kind of scooped sound..I am trying global eq, block eq and IR's so far not really getting the sound i want....or at least what i hear in my head.

 

With some effort it does work out but listening to the raw amp + cabs or ir's isnt pleasing...here is my current sound  https://hearthis.at/joejeffries/sumo-2018-3-16/

 

Well...by my standards your tone in the link sounds pretty harsh and piercing through a pair of Yamaha HS7 studio monitors.  Pretty much the same through a pair of Beyerdynamic DT770 80ohm headsets.  So if it sounds like too much or even adequate mid range to you it's apparently an artifact of what you're monitoring through because you've corrected out mids WAY too much.  If I were to try and simulate the harshness in that tone on my gear I'd probably have to use an IR with something like an SM57 positioned right at the cap edge, as well as probably slice out some mids on either the amp or a parametric EQ.

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Hey, I think it's not that the Helix is scooped. It's because there's a lot more bass and treble in the helix cabs, and maybe some amps. With more top and bottom end, the mids don't stand out as much.

 

I've experienced coming from the Atomic Amplifire. If you want the mids  be more up front, it may not to wise to add more mids with EQ. Instead, pull back the highs and lows before the amp (the low/high pass filter block is useful for this).

 

Reason: I assume that you want more mids for overdriven amp tones. Bass distortion = flubby, treble distortion = fizz, mid distortion = sweet. So instead of sending more mids when the bass and treble are already hitting the amp too hard, reduce the lows and highs so that they go through the amp relatively cleanly.

 

Let the amp work on the mids, so that as the mids are distorted and compressed, they level out again with the cleaner bass and treble. End result: tight bottom end, rich overdriven mids, sizzling highs without too much fizz.

 

Another thing to try is to mess with the cab parameters, especially the high/low cut and mic distance. Helix cabs take some time to dial in right. Or you can just use a more aggressively EQ-ed IR.

 

The plus side with the Helix is that the treble and bass is there if you need it, e.g. for glassy cleans. Happy experimenting!

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Well as for my specific tone on the recording...thats how I play and like it (searing) but ...the word  'glassy ' is a good description of what i dont like about Helix.

Again, this is in every single amp and cab not my custom patch's but in the models. There are some plugins and modelers that dont have this glassy sound...fizzy

 

Thanks for the opinions

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1 hour ago, MarkJarvis said:

Well as for my specific tone on the recording...thats how I play and like it (searing) but ...the word  'glassy ' is a good description of what i dont like about Helix.

Again, this is in every single amp and cab not my custom patch's but in the models. There are some plugins and modelers that dont have this glassy sound...fizzy

 

Thanks for the opinions

I'm sure you've probably tried this as it's pretty common knowledge, but just in case ... have you tried high-cuts on the cabs, either built-in or IRs? People like different settings - I find 7k high cut is about right to make me happy and about an 80 Hz low-cut. But there's no set rule. That should take care of some high-end harshness if that's what you're referring to by fizz.

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