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MarkJarvis

what are you using the pre blocks for?

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What are you using the pre blocks for?...

 

reason i am asking is so far not really finding ever using them....I tried

1) Using as an amp before a cab

2) Using a pre before an amp block (yuk)

 

While they use less dsp I am not finding them useful so I am asking you what and how are you using them if at all.

 

 

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If you're using a power amp and cabinet, or slaving a head for power, there's no technical "need" to use an amp model that incorporates a modeled power section,  as you've got a real one... though you certainly can if you choose. Whether or not you prefer the full amp vs. pre-amp only models, is just a matter of personal preference.  

 

As for daisy chaining 2 amp models together, whether they're pre-amp or full amp models... that's never gonna work. 

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Well the pre-amps sound very lacking in terms of if i was trying to use them as a amp source (over using the full amp model)

 

Still ..very interested in creative ways people are using the pre amps.

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34 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

If you're using a power amp and cabinet, or slaving a head for power, there's no technical "need" to use an amp model that incorporates a modeled power section,  as you've got a real one... though you certainly can if you choose. Whether or not you prefer the full amp vs. pre-amp only models, is just a matter of personal preference.  

 

As for daisy chaining 2 amp models together, whether they're pre-amp or full amp models... that's never gonna work. 

 

I'm confused?  Many people successfully use preamp blocks to boost their amp models in Helix.

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Hey Mark - if in your number 2 you mean a preamp before an amp, I do that occasionally and get a nice tone enhancement, depending on what I'm trying to do.  I typically  don't pair the same amp and preamp only because that doesn't give me a tone I want (usually crunch or driving a dist block).  I could probably get the same tone through other means since the Helix is so versatile, but in scrolling through the preamps I found a few that I like using.

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1 hour ago, FlyingsCool said:

 

I'm confused?  Many people successfully use preamp blocks to boost their amp models in Helix.

 

Never mind...I thought you were referring to using, for example, one of the Marshall preamp-only models in front of another full-amp model....that's gonna get ugly.

 

The studio preamps are another story. But honestly, I've never found the need to use those with other amp models.... with Variax acoustic models, where I have no other amp model in the chain, yes. But that's all I've ever used them for. 

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2 hours ago, MarkJarvis said:

What are you using the pre blocks for?...

 

reason i am asking is so far not really finding ever using them....I tried

1) Using as an amp before a cab

2) Using a pre before an amp block (yuk)

 

While they use less dsp I am not finding them useful so I am asking you what and how are you using them if at all.

 

 

 

I use the Helix preamps exclusively because I output the blocks to Dr. Z mini combos. Technically, this leaves me with 2 preamps, one power amp, and one cab, but the Dr. Z's are really simple(one knob), so the two preamps don't get in eachother's way too much. 

Look at the Helix preamps as a regular guitar pedal. They do things like distortion, gain management, and tone shaping. They sound thin/lame on their own because they're intended to be used with an amp, just like any other guitar pedal. 

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9 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

Never mind...I thought you were referring to using, for example, one of the Marshall preamp-only models in front of another full-amp model....that's gonna get ugly.

 

The studio preamps are another story. But honestly, I've never found the need to use those with other amp models.... with Variax acoustic models, where I have no other amp model in the chain, yes. But that's all I've ever used them for. 

"for example, one of the Marshall preamp-only models in front of another full-amp model....that's gonna get ugly."

Depending on the full amp model, I don't think that's necessarily true. i.e., a marshall preamp in front of something like a Fender Twin should be usable. 
 

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5 hours ago, ramirezdan said:

"for example, one of the Marshall preamp-only models in front of another full-amp model....that's gonna get ugly."

Depending on the full amp model, I don't think that's necessarily true. i.e., a marshall preamp in front of something like a Fender Twin should be usable. 
 

 

Stuffing a Corvette engine into a Ford Festiva doesn't make it a sports car...;)

 

Yes, in the modeling world, we can theoretically do just about anything....and if that works for you, then have at it. But if I want a Fender Twin sound, then I want a Fender Twin sound....don't see much point in front-loading it with a Marshall. 

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I'm sure there are several things that I'm missing in this statement....but I'll put it out there anyway...

 

 

Wouldn't the preamp only models really just be a sophisticated od/dist pedal? 

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9 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

Stuffing a Corvette engine into a Ford Festiva doesn't make it a sports car...;)

 

Yes, in the modeling world, we can theoretically do just about anything....and if that works for you, then have at it. But if I want a Fender Twin sound, then I want a Fender Twin sound....don't see much point in front-loading it with a Marshall. 

 

Someone better tell a bunch of players in the analog world to stop using amps/preamps as feeders into their main amp to get their unique tones then.

 

End of the day this has been done in the real world for a long time, by various people, and a modeler just makes it easier to play with a ton of combinations to create 'that sound'.

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8 hours ago, waymda said:

 

 

Someone better tell a bunch of players in the analog world to stop using amps/preamps as feeders into their main amp to get their unique tones then.

 

End of the day this has been done in the real world for a long time, by various people, and a modeler just makes it easier to play with a ton of combinations to create 'that sound'.

 

Like everything else discussed around here, this is all subjective, and I have no interest in getting into a debate over the Gospel According To Joe Famous, and the legendary genesis of his "unique tone".

 

I'm sure lots of weird things have been done in pursuit of sonic "magic" over the years...I recall an apocryphal story about EVH wiring some amp to a dimmer switch in his kitchen, don't ask me why. I like his "brown sound" as much as the next guy, but I'm not going down that road either.

 

And perhaps everybody but me has done it, but I've never actually seen anybody dump a Marshall into a Fender, or vice versa. I've seen plenty of guys use a dual mono box to feed the same signal to two amps at the same time and run them in stereo... but a daisy chain? Never seen it done, and I can practically hear the noise and hiss from here. If it's old news to everybody but me, so be it...I have no monopoly on wisdom. However, it just seems like a whole lot more trouble than it's worth.

 

Do what you like, though...I was merely stating an opinion. 

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Most common use I see for preamp uses are when running out the power section of an amp. Though running a preamp into amp is also very common. There are plenty of preamp pedals that are made to be run in front of an amp. Running a preamp into an amp gives you more EQ control before you hit the amp, additional gain staging, and perhaps a different flavor of gain. 

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The guitar pre's can be useful for someone running directly into a rack mounted power amp without a preamp. They also make sense for those running 4CM into a traditional guitar amp where the Helix's preamp block can bypass the preamp on your guitar amp such that a preset can be using a Helix preamp looped directly into the guitar amp's power amp section.

 

Some folks use the mic tube pre block to warm up the sound from the microphone input or an acoustic guitar. The mic tube pre as well as the guitar preamps have also been used by some both before and after amp blocks to add some additional "warmth" or just modify the sound like an effect pedal. I tried the preamps initially both before and after amp blocks but found that at least for me I wasn't getting enough mileage out of it to persist, YMMV.    I do find the mic 'Tube pre' useful for acoustic guitar presets.

 

 

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On 4/18/2018 at 11:01 AM, cruisinon2 said:

 

Stuffing a Corvette engine into a Ford Festiva doesn't make it a sports car...;)

 

Yes, in the modeling world, we can theoretically do just about anything....and if that works for you, then have at it. But if I want a Fender Twin sound, then I want a Fender Twin sound....don't see much point in front-loading it with a Marshall. 


Weird car analogy aside, using a preamp in front of a high headroom amp isn't a weird modeling edge case. I've done this in the past with a Mesa Dual Rectifier's pre-out running into an AC30 or Twin. My buddy used to run his deluxe reverb with the preamp section of a JCM-900 in the return. 

"But if I want a Fender Twin sound, then I want a Fender Twin sound....don't see much point in front-loading it with a Marshall."
If that's the case, why would you even use a pedal in front of the Twin? That changes the sound. Dillenger Escape Plan plays with a Fender Twin and something tells me you wouldn't call their sound "a Fender Twin sound", but it works for them.

People push "whatever works" a bit much. There's a reason for conventional wisdom, but preamp models are basically no different than a distortion/gain pedal and anywhere you'd consider using one of those, you can use a preamp model.

 

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This may be blasphemy, but I am trying to run a fender preamp block from the helix into the FX return of a Marshall Silver Jubilee mini combo. I have been using the four cable method to connect helix to the amp.

 

The Silver Jubilee has two channels sort of. There’s a clean channel and a lead channel. However, if you pull the rhythm clip knob out on the clean, you get a good crunch sound out of the clean channel.

 

 So my problem lies within snapshots. I made a preset.

 

block 1 is fender preamp block

block 2 is fx loop 1 block (where the marshall preamp lives via 4cm)

 

in snapshot 1 i have fender pre block on, fx 1 off

 

in snapshot 2, vice versa of 1.

 

Whenever I change a snapshot though, it usually leaves the fender preamp block still engaged. I have gone into my global parameters and made sure that the snapshot recall is not on manual. I also save after changing snapshots too. Is it the nature of the preamp block that will not allow me to have it switched on and off? Or do I have to assign it to a foot control? Am I stuck using presets? I dont mind but the switch bw preset drip out could be a problem.

 

I had a third snapshot with fx 1 on and external amp switch engaged to go to lead. Basically trying to do a 3 channel amp thing. From snap 2 to 3 everything a la marshall worked

 

Any advice?

 

 

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