(High) gain staging

[kylotan]

Hello all, I'm slowly migrating a bunch of old VST chains over to Helix Native presets, so that I can take my studio settings out on the road with my Helix Floor unit. I play extreme metal with a lot of gain, and what I'm finding is that while the individual models in the Helix are close tonal matches for the VSTs I was using before, putting them in series often ends up with my tone sounding very fuzzy (literally, like I'm using a Fuzz pedal). I suspect this is something to do with my gain staging in the Helix, but in the absence of any guide on the 'expected' level for each block, and the absence of any sort of trim/input setting for each block, the trial-and-error approach to fixing this isn't working well for me.

 

Example:

This chain has a LOT of gain and gives extreme feedback, but the tone is perfect and exactly what I'd expect:

Guitar in to interface -> TSE R47 VST (Rat distortion simulator) with drive 50% and volume 50% --> Emissary amp VST on Lead channel, gain at 33%, master at 50% > cab sim

 

But this similar chain, on Helix:

Guitar in to interface -> Vermin Dist with Gain and Level at 50% --> Brit 2204 amp, gain 33%, master  at 3.6 (default) > cab block

... this sounds like it's breaking up with a hint of fuzz.

 

Any suggestions on addressing this? I don't have the original gear so it's hard to know what it 'should' sound like, but I don't think the Helix sound is what I'd expect here.

 

[ADBrown]

Make sure your input levels going into Helix Native are at an appropriate level for later gain staging. A low cut anywhere between 80-100Hz can help tame any low end boomy/woofiness. Experimenting with the high cut will also take out any fizz you are experiencing. I'd also recommend checking out the Line 6 Doom and Badonk models as well as some of the other high gain amps. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF9jkFlddX4

 

[kylotan]

My input levels are fine (well within the ranges on the video you shared), and work well with other VSTs, including freeware and Guitar Rig. They also seem to work great with Helix Native most of the time - just not when I put a distortion block in front of an amp block.

 

Just to be clear, it's not boominess or woofiness I'm getting - it's definite fuzz, similar to what you get from a fuzz pedal or block, like it's breaking up.

 

Possibly related - when I have the Vermin Dist before the PV Panama, I play a chord, and I adjust the level on the Vermin block up and down, I hear something like a phasing sound, or an extreme low cut at low levels (with no low cut at high levels). If I turn off the amp block, the level on the distortion works exactly as I'd imagine again.

[kylotan]

I've attached a simple patch to demonstrate. If I switch the distortion block off, the amp sounds fine. If I switch the amp block off and turn the distortion level up, it sounds fine. If I have both on, it's fuzzy-sounding, and I get significantly different frequency content if I adjust the level on the distortion.

High Gain Test.hlx

[steelstringer]

On your 2203 model, the tone will sound fuzzy if the master volume is low. Try it around 5 or 6 (out of ten). 

[kylotan]

I tried pushing the master volume up but it doesn't have a noticeable effect. I get the same problem with the PV Panama and all the other high gain amps I tried - fine on their own, but can't handle much other than a screamer in front of them.

[kylotan]

Here's an audio sample of a simple palm-muted riff through 3 different chains, all going into the Uber 4x12 V30 on default settings:

1. Just PV Panama, drive=4, Ch. Vol=7.5, Master=4. Sounds much like I expect.
2. Just Vermin Dist, gain=5, filter=0, level=8.5 (deliberately high to have volume parity). Again, much like I'd expect.
3. Vermin into PV, with Vermin level down to 5.0 - sounds fuzzy and 'crunchy' (not in a good way).
4. Vermin into PV, with Vermin level down further to 2.0 - still sounds fuzzy but now I lose bottom end.

What's going on here? I should be able to put a distortion before an amp and get a bit of extra dirt, without it starting to break up like this, right? I can do it with other VSTs that model very similar units and it sounds good, unlike here.

 

DistortionChaining.mp3

[kylotan]

Bump - has anyone listened to the mp3?

[phil_m]

I find the RAT, modeled and the real thing, to be a very fizzy pedal to begin with... Especially with filter knob at 0. So I'm not sure that what you're hearing is all that unexpected. Have you tried any of the other drive pedals? I find the Klon model (Minotaur) works well in front of nearly everything.

[kylotan]

Fizz would be fine. I expect that from distortion. What I don't expect is that fuzzy breaking-up sound, or losing all the bottom end when I pull back the distortion output level.

 

I've attached an mp3 of a very similar chain, except using the TSE R47 freeware Rat-simulating VST, and the Emissary amp VST - not identical to what's in the Helix, but quite close.

The 3rd repetition of the riff is VERY fizzy, but doesn't break up with the weird crackling effect. And when I dial back the Rat output for the 4th repetition, it cleans up nicely while keeping that top-end bite, like I'd expect - unlike the Helix that loses the bottom end and sounds much quieter and thin.

 

The Helix really does sound broken here - and I'd like to know why!

DistortionChainingFreeware.mp3

[phil_m]

26 minutes ago, kylotan said:

Fizz would be fine. I expect that from distortion. What I don't expect is that fuzzy breaking-up sound, or losing all the bottom end when I pull back the distortion output level.

 

I've attached an mp3 of a very similar chain, except using the TSE R47 freeware Rat-simulating VST, and the Emissary amp VST - not identical to what's in the Helix, but quite close.

The 3rd repetition of the riff is VERY fizzy, but doesn't break up with the weird crackling effect. And when I dial back the Rat output for the 4th repetition, it cleans up nicely while keeping that top-end bite, like I'd expect - unlike the Helix that loses the bottom end and sounds much quieter and thin.

 

The Helix really does sound broken here - and I'd like to know why!

DistortionChainingFreeware.mp3

 

I honestly don't know... It seems to me that comparing it to another modeler is rather pointless, as the real test would be comparing it to what happens with the real amp and the real pedal. I have certainly heard real distortion pedals exhibit that sort of squelching sound in the real world. I mean, not every combination is going to work.

[kylotan]

Well, the chance of me getting hold of these exact pedals and amps to test everything are very remote - but I've tried several combinations of distortion in front of high gain amps now and the Helix makes a muddy mess of it every time. The freeware VSTs don't do it, Guitar Rig 5 doesn't do it, and even the POD XT didn't do it - I'm forced to conclude that there's either something wrong with the Helix or there's some weird way in which it has to be used to get it to work right.

 

Another example - stick the legacy Heavy Drive (Metal Zone sim, I think) in front of the German Ubersonic, and it starts turning to mush if the output is above about 15%.

 

I've not tried every permutation yet, but it really doesn't seem like there are any distortions in the Helix that play well with high gain amps to give them a little more bite.

[phil_m]

Do you have the distortion blocks as the first thing in your chain? Some of them will lower the input impedance if you have it set to Auto. I'm not sure if the RAT model does that or not, but I suppose it would be worth checking.

[kylotan]

Problem is, it sounds exactly the same on Native, where I don't think impedance is an issue.

[kylotan]

I found this video on YouTube where there's a comparison against a Fractal AX8 with a very similar chain, and unfortunately I can hear the distinctive fuzzy break-up in the Helix on some of the patches there, too:

 

It doesn't seem to apply to all of them, so it's obviously not impossible to get usable tones, but it does seem like the Helix prevents stacking of certain chains that other devices - perhaps including the real-world counterparts - do a significantly better job with.

 

[phil_m]

Have you tried adjusting the Sag and Bias on these amp models? It seems some of that looseness might be related to those settings.

[DunedinDragon]

You haven't said much about the cab block other than it's the cab block.  In my experience this sort of fizz is easily addressed most often with a change in mic and mic positions...or potentially mic mixes.  You get the same type of fizz on actual amps if you mic too close over the cap of the speaker.  Especially true with harsher sounding mic's like an SM57 or MD409.  The 2204 is also a very noisy amp to begin with both in real life and modeled.  You can hear the hum fairly clearly with no signal and just on it's default settings.  It makes me wonder if what you're hearing is the residual hum that might be blocked out easily by turning on the noise gate.

[kylotan]

The noise gate is only really for the gaps between the notes. I'm talking about the very distinct fuzz-like sound during the notes. Fizz is fine, fuzz is not!

[DunedinDragon]

2 hours ago, kylotan said:

The noise gate is only really for the gaps between the notes. I'm talking about the very distinct fuzz-like sound during the notes. Fizz is fine, fuzz is not!

Well that was only one piece of it.  How about the cab and mic placements?  What have you tried there?

[kylotan]

There are basically infinite possibilities there so I'm sticking with the defaults that should work. (Literally, "the Uber 4x12 V30 on default settings" as mentioned in one post above.) But this is not something that would affect the characteristic of the distortion, just the frequency response, but that is not the problem here. I'm talking about the specific fuzzy, 'crunchy' distortion that sounds more like a fuzz pedal than a distortion - cabs don't have that effect (unless your speaker has blown, perhaps)

[roscoe5]

On 4/24/2018 at 9:38 AM, kylotan said:

Bump - has anyone listened to the mp3?

 

Dude, I just listened to that MP3. Something is definitely wrong. I'll check out the preset you posted when I get home on both my physical Helix floor and Native.

 

To me, it sounds like an impedence issue.  Helix is supposed to model the impedence of the virtual effcts and amp blocks as they feed into one another.  Wonder if there is a bug.  Did you over ride the global impedence setting from Auto?  Make any other impedance changes?

 

I never use the Helix Vermin model, but have a 90s Rat.

[roscoe5]

23 hours ago, phil_m said:

Do you have the distortion blocks as the first thing in your chain? Some of them will lower the input impedance if you have it set to Auto. I'm not sure if the RAT model does that or not, but I suppose it would be worth checking.

 

10 hours ago, kylotan said:

Problem is, it sounds exactly the same on Native, where I don't think impedance is an issue.

 

Sorry, I missed this chat about impedence between you two.  I'm looking at the forum in my phone.

 

I'll still check out the preset later though.  I'm still curious.

[roscoe5]

Oh, but don't put too much faith in the default block settings when you first assign them.

 

Example...the Mesa Dual Recto model defaults are not how I dime in my real Recto.  one if the first things I tried when I got Helix a couple of years ago was building a new patch from scratch with the Recto model and a single Recto 412 cab model. I thought it didn't sound anything like my real  Recto rig and almost returned my Helix.  Glad I dug in a little further than the block defaults.

[phil_m]

On 4/20/2018 at 4:29 AM, kylotan said:

I've attached a simple patch to demonstrate. If I switch the distortion block off, the amp sounds fine. If I switch the amp block off and turn the distortion level up, it sounds fine. If I have both on, it's fuzzy-sounding, and I get significantly different frequency content if I adjust the level on the distortion.

High Gain Test.hlx

 

I actually loaded this preset onto my Helix last night and messed around with it a little with my Les Paul. I didn't think it sounded nearly as bad as your clip did, but, yes, it did have a lot of hash going on in the mids. To me, lowering the gain on the RAT made a big difference. I also was able to tighten things a lot by lowering the Bias parameter on the amp model. Moving the mic farther away also helped a lot. Putting a Parameter EQ and notching out some of the crap around 400Hz helped even more. I guess all I'm saying is that there are sorts of tools to deal with it. I also found that out of the gate, the Legacy RAT model (called Classic Distortion) seemed a little tighter than the new one.

 

I can't say, though, that this combination seemed necessarily broken to me. It just sounded like a ton of saturation. It seems like it could easily happen with the real deal.

 

One thing I'm not clear on still - for you clips, were you using the Helix Floor as the input, or are you using a different interface going into Native?

[jbuhajla]

Some distortions added in front of an already distorted amp just sound crappy, and others sound good. It all depends on the amp and distortions and how they play together. You can just throw any distortion in front of your dirty amp and just expect more distortion that sound pleasing. It is a trial and error thing. Same goes for layering ODs in front of an amp. Some combinations sound "good" others do not. Change the order, and completely different. 

 

I believe Pete Thorn has a video out there somewhere called something like "How NOT do use overdrives and distortions" if I remember correctly. 

[roscoe5]

On 4/25/2018 at 3:03 PM, kylotan said:

There are basically infinite possibilities there so I'm sticking with the defaults that should work. (Literally, "the Uber 4x12 V30 on default settings" as mentioned in one post above.) But this is not something that would affect the characteristic of the distortion, just the frequency response, but that is not the problem here. I'm talking about the specific fuzzy, 'crunchy' distortion that sounds more like a fuzz pedal than a distortion - cabs don't have that effect (unless your speaker has blown, perhaps)

 

Okay, finally got to spend some time with it.  

 

Just like my real Rat pedal, the model Vermin is tricky too.  

 

The key to your issue I think is the level.  It's almost cut only, no boost.  So when the default comes in at Level=5.0, basically half the volume is cut and it kills the gain to the amp downstream.  I turned the filter up as well, as I used to on my Rat pedal.

 

I also did dial back the gain on both the PV and the Vermin.  They were fighting each other.

 

I took a swing at your preset setup the way I like my high gain setup.  See attached.

 

Note that I throw a looper in the front of my presets, especially when I'm setting up and tweaking, so I can loop a riff then adjust settings.

High Gain Test_R.hlx

[roscoe5]

Oh, and if you have really hot or active pickups, you might want to consider turning on the Guitar In Pad in the global settings, or dial back the gains some more on the Vermin and PV amp.

[roscoe5]

I'm really glad this thread came up and I played with that preset.  It made me really consider the overall affect the dist/OD pedals were having on my sound, and I re-evaluated the way I was using distortion/OD before an amp.

 

Inspired by the OP, I too always thought I lost a little bit of oomph when I put dist/OD in front of a hi-gain amp.  Luckily, Helix enables us to run parallel paths with the effects blocks.

 

Running the Tube Screamer in parallel with an A/B split instead of series in front of Recto amp gives me that bit of bite without loosing the pure amp distortion of the Recto.  Never even considered this 10-15 years ago with physical gear.  I just accepted the compromise.

 

Recto Scream.hlx

https://line6.com/customtone/tone/3816603/

 

Helix Pic

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B30lBAWfekKiT1lUelU1UnJDVlFHSWs0NG1mSHRxN1lzSWJZ

 

Sound Clip

 

1.  Amp + Dual Cab

2. Amp + Dual Cab + EQ

3. Amp + Dual Cab + EQ + OD (in parallel)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kylotan]

Sorry for taking a few days to reply; I was out of town.

 

The recording I took above was done via Helix Native, so that I could do a decent comparison with the other VSTs I am more familiar with. I used the Hi-Z input on my interface and levels were well below clipping at all times. I have hot pickups but I also have the pad engaged. But I did check the same patch on Helix Floor and noted exactly the same tone issue, so I am assuming it is down to the modelling rather than the input. Additionally, I've used the same signal chain with other VSTs and not needed any other gain correction.

 

roscoe5:

I think you're on to something with the "cut only" aspect of the Rat. As you say, with Gain at 5 and Level at 5 it's a lot quieter with it on than bypassed, and I guess that is causing the amp to distort a much weaker - but already very distorted - signal, causing that messy sound. If I push the level up to 10, and pull the gain back to 1.0, then I get something usable. It's a similar story with the Legacy 'Heavy Dist' (MetalZone) - the Output needs to go up to about 50%, but then the Drive needs to be on 5% or even less.

 

So, at least I have something to work with now, so many thanks for that. It does still seem like something is wrong with the gain staging of the Helix however - other distortion VSTs have pretty much unity gain with drive and output around the middle, and therefore when the amp sim is enabled, I have a much wider range of drive levels to play with. But as soon as I mix and match - for example, put the TSE R47 Rat modelling VST before a Helix Native patch with just the amp and cab in, it goes back to being this mess that requires me to pull down the drive on the distortion plugin significantly to the point where there's little room for adjustment, and where I get less of the character of the pedal.

 

 

[phil_m]

2 hours ago, kylotan said:

So, at least I have something to work with now, so many thanks for that. It does still seem like something is wrong with the gain staging of the Helix however - other distortion VSTs have pretty much unity gain with drive and output around the middle, and therefore when the amp sim is enabled, I have a much wider range of drive levels to play with. But as soon as I mix and match - for example, put the TSE R47 Rat modelling VST before a Helix Native patch with just the amp and cab in, it goes back to being this mess that requires me to pull down the drive on the distortion plugin significantly to the point where there's little room for adjustment, and where I get less of the character of the pedal.

 

From everything I've seen, the Helix drives are very, very close to the real deal, and honestly, I would suspect that other VSTs are less accurate in the way they model drives. I wouldn't expect that putting a drive pedal with a lot of gain in front of highly saturate amp in real life that you would hear a lot of the character of the pedal coming through. If anything, I would expect it to sound like a muddy mess... That's just my perspective.

[roscoe5]

Kylotan,

 

Maybe next weekend I will pull out some OD/Distortion pedals from their tote in the basement, put them in the Helix loops, A/B them with their similar Helix model counterparts, and see if I get similar results.

 

Some pedals up to bat

 

ProCo Rat, 90s

Ibanez TS9, Keeley Mod

Boss Metal Zone, Keeley Mod

Keeley Luna Overdrive 

[kylotan]

4 hours ago, phil_m said:

From everything I've seen, the Helix drives are very, very close to the real deal, and honestly, I would suspect that other VSTs are less accurate in the way they model drives.

 

At the price I paid, I would like to believe you. ;)

 

However, the video I linked above compares the Helix with the Fractal AX8 unit, and the Fractal there, with a similar chain to the Helix, sounds more like the other VSTs (including the freeware) than the Helix does. Without getting into any sort of manufacturer debate, the AX8 is in the roughly same price bracket as the Helix and Fractal have an arguably better reputation for high gain modelling than Line 6 do. So, while I am very happy with my Helix overall, my hunch is that it is the one in the wrong here.

 

No denying that chaining 2 distortions is going to start to sound like a mess, but the Helix's mess seems to be more fuzzy and 'bitcrushery' than the alternatives.

 

 

3 hours ago, roscoe5 said:

Kylotan,

 

Maybe next weekend I will pull out some OD/Distortion pedals from their tote in the basement, put them in the Helix loops, A/B them with their similar Helix model counterparts, and see if I get similar results.

 

Some pedals up to bat

 

ProCo Rat, 90s

Ibanez TS9, Keeley Mod

Boss Metal Zone, Keeley Mod

Keeley Luna Overdrive 

 

I would be very grateful if you could do that, just that I could get a second opinion on whether this is something I should be requesting a fix for, or whether all the other modellers I have are wrong!

[kylotan]

Okay, I tested Helix Native vs a few other VSTs providing very similar chains:

 

Vermin Dist -> PV Panama (Helix)

R47 -> X50 (freeware by TSE)

Cat -> Van 51 (Guitar Rig 5)

Metal Tone -> Heavy 51 (TH3 by Overloud - not the same distortion pedal modelled, but close)

Black Death -> Peavey 6505 (Revalver)

 

All went into the same impulse response, and had broadly the same settings - amp on lead channel, neutral EQ, with about 2 on the postgain, level and gain at half-way on the Rat and filter at zero.

 

What I found was that the TSE freeware and Guitar Rig were decent enough as-is. TH3 started to get the bitcrusher/fuzz effect. Revalver was even worse with this effect, but I could fix it by pulling the Black Death's level down from 5 to about 2.5 with no other effect on tone.

 

The Helix? It was far worse than even Revalver on these settings, and it can't be fixed by pulling the level down on the distortion level - the fuzz stays there but the tone thins out, losing serious bottom end.

 

I've attached the exact same riff played through the 5 chains in this order: TSE, Helix, Guitar Rig, TH3, Revalver. I think it's clear which are the worst ones. And I'd love to hear what Line 6 think of this.

DistortionTest(3).mp3

[HonestOpinion]

11 hours ago, kylotan said:

Okay, I tested Helix Native vs a few other VSTs providing very similar chains:

 

Vermin Dist -> PV Panama (Helix)

R47 -> X50 (freeware by TSE)

Cat -> Van 51 (Guitar Rig 5)

Metal Tone -> Heavy 51 (TH3 by Overloud - not the same distortion pedal modelled, but close)

Black Death -> Peavey 6505 (Revalver)

 

All went into the same impulse response, and had broadly the same settings - amp on lead channel, neutral EQ, with about 2 on the postgain, level and gain at half-way on the Rat and filter at zero.

 

What I found was that the TSE freeware and Guitar Rig were decent enough as-is. TH3 started to get the bitcrusher/fuzz effect. Revalver was even worse with this effect, but I could fix it by pulling the Black Death's level down from 5 to about 2.5 with no other effect on tone.

 

The Helix? It was far worse than even Revalver on these settings, and it can't be fixed by pulling the level down on the distortion level - the fuzz stays there but the tone thins out, losing serious bottom end.

 

I've attached the exact same riff played through the 5 chains in this order: TSE, Helix, Guitar Rig, TH3, Revalver. I think it's clear which are the worst ones. And I'd love to hear what Line 6 think of this.

DistortionTest(3).mp3

 

Could be just a matter of your configuration or my personal tone preference but I have to agree that the Rat with the PV Panama sounds awful to me on your clip. Clips #2(Helix) and #5(Revalver) sound inferior to the other three to my ears. The 4th clip(TH3) almost sounds a little muffled but still a good tone and the 5th(Revalver) besides not having IMHO a great tone also sounds a bit phased. Have to admit though, I was never a fan of the Rat's distortion sound in the first place though so for all I know Line6 may have captured it faithfully. The actual pedal always sounded a little bright and thin to me.

[roscoe5]

Yeah, I only ever used the Rat for bass.  It was my #1 bass distortion pedal until GK come out with the Diesel Dawg.  Loved that one.

 

I hated it for guitar as well.

[kylotan]

7 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

I have to agree that the Rat with the PV Panama sounds awful to me on your clip. Clips #2(Helix) and #5(Revalver) sound inferior to the other three to my ears.

 

I agree - and with Revalver, it's possible to pull down the output level from the distortion and have it clean up as we'd expect. With the Helix, that just doesn't work. I guess I'll file a support ticket.

 

 

2 hours ago, roscoe5 said:

I only ever used the Rat for bass.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not really interested in the Rat's tone as such, but I'm just trying to find a distortion to add a bit more dirt and high-end to the signal, as I have done successfully with VSTs in the past. But that isn't working in the Helix/Helix Native. I've tried replacing the Rat with the Legacy Heavy Dist (Metalzone), and that's just about usable at 0% drive, especially if I pull the Peavey gain down further.

 

 

[BBD_123]

On 4/29/2018 at 5:21 PM, roscoe5 said:

Inspired by the OP, I too always thought I lost a little bit of oomph when I put dist/OD in front of a hi-gain amp.  Luckily, Helix enables us to run parallel paths with the effects blocks.

 

Running the Tube Screamer in parallel with an A/B split instead of series in front of Recto amp gives me that bit of bite without loosing the pure amp distortion of the Recto.  Never even considered this 10-15 years ago with physical gear.  I just accepted the compromise.

 

This ^ ^ ^ ^

 

Although I wouldn't put a distortion in front of a high gain amp as this defeats purpose of high gain amps. But there is no doubt that splitting the path so that you hit the amp with a mix of clean and distorted inputs absolutely does bring the sound alive. Helix signal path routing is a revelation if you haven't delved into it:

 

 

[kylotan]

I appreciate stomp distortion into amp distortion is too much distortion for 99% of styles. For most of my patches I have subtle overdrive from a Screamer or similar (which is usually there to deliberately reduce some of that 'oomph' - high gain amps often get a lot of low end building up during palm muting which the overdrive helps to reduce). But for this specific scenario I have been using a small amount of Rat or Metal Zone distortion feeding into a Peavey or Engl amp for an intentionally very high gain tone with with a lot of mids and top-end. It worked well on the Pod XT Live, and it works on all the other sims I tried, providing I can adjust the stomp's output level - it's only the Helix which can't handle it for some reason. The models sound good in isolation but crap when in series, so I suspect a problem with the internal gain staging. I've filed a support request and I'll see what happens.

[BBD_123]

30 minutes ago, kylotan said:

- it's only the Helix which can't handle it for some reason.

 

I strongly suspect the reason is that the Helix is accurately modelling the amp's gain stage, in sharp contrast to the stuff you are used to using. What is probably happening is that you are using models of amps you've never played then trying to dial them in unrealistically and stick distortion in front of them because that works with a bunch of VSTs that you have. Unsurprisingly, it sounds crap but this is no fault of Helix.

34 minutes ago, kylotan said:

The models sound good in isolation but crap when in series, so I suspect a problem with the internal gain staging.

 

I suspect you don't really know what you are doing.

 

[kylotan]

It's tiring, and unnecessary, to get insults about this. I posted my patch above and claiming that the amp is "dialed in unrealistically" is ridiculous. Additionally I posted a video by a professional guitarist who has almost 200 thousand subscribers to his YouTube gear channel, where he has extensive experience of high gain tone, both real amps and sims, and the Helix sounds bad there too, with the same problem I have. The proof is right there, but you want to claim that it's user error... that somehow, there's some secret to dialing in a Peavey 5150 that is eluding me (and this other guitarist), but somehow we can get perfectly good sounds all the rest of the time with any other gear... nah, it doesn't add up.