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FRFR speaker !!!

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On 4/26/2018 at 8:50 PM, roscoe5 said:

Well, I'm gonna have to pre-recommend the Line 6 Powercab.  Just pre-ordered one.  I've been fighting going to FRFR for two years now.

 

This is my first FRFR solution outside of studio monitors.  It's the only FRFR cab with a speaker model safety net built in, which might be a good fall back if I don't like FRFR.  I do need full range regardless because of my Variax.

 

I like the fact that the IRs and cab modeling is all in the speaker.  I've been using my power amp in of my Line 6 Spider Valve amps with no cab model blocks.  I shouldn't have to change my presets to go back and forth between rigs.

 

I was already sold on the coaxial speaker Eminence Beta 12 CX concept with Mission Gemini and had decided that would be my solution when I pulled the FRFR trigger.  Glad I waited.  I think Line 6 just 1up'd it.

If you don't mind, start a new thread once you put it through its paces to let us know what you think. I may be interested in one at some point. 

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Well

5 hours ago, brue58ski said:

 

I would say it didn't just appear I was singled out since it was my post that you quoted.  That in itself, did single me out. I don't see how anyone could have come to any other conclusion.

Its pretty often i see a topic, and then somebody will have an opinion, and then somebody comes along and jumps on that person for having an opinion they dont agree with. That where things almost always go down hill.  Your post was quoted as more of an example. As i said, i wasnt speaking about you specifically, and i know you are usually pretty cool.. If i were, i would have followed up your next post by defending my views. . Im not doing that, im apologetic if anything, so lets move on.

 

 

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2 hours ago, jbuhajla said:

If you don't mind, start a new thread once you put it through its paces to let us know what you think. I may be interested in one at some point. 

Will do.  I'm optimistically skeptical but really hope the magic happens :)

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23 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

You know all the EQ problems that so many of us have a problem with? The Alto seemed to emphasize them. The Headrush does not. How these things (FRFR) speakers sound is, of course, highly subjective, YMMV. But, in my ongoing love/hate relationship with my Helix, the Headrush has been a major factor in my keeping it.

 

Also... I'm actually a bass player. The Headrush sounds GREAT with both an ME50B plugged straight in, and the Helix bass presets, which didn't impress me thru the TS210, sound really good thru it! I'd been looking for a lightweight Class D amp, and not being impressed by what I was hearing at the ridiculous prices that are being asked. The Headrush and the Helix just might do the trick.

 

Now, when and if the Helix gets back from service and the dropout problems are resolved, I just MIGHT be ready to rock again!

I’m really interested in your opinion on the difference between the alto and the HeadRush. I’ve been eyeing frfr options. I had planned on waiting for the HeadRush to be back in stock at Sweetwater but a used ts212 w/ Bluetooth(not that Bluetooth really matters to me) just showed up on my local Craigslist for $150.

 

The powercab option is enticing but more than I would prefer to spend. Just a bedroom rocker at this time.

 

Have you only played bass thru your frfr’s?

 

In your opinion is there really that much of a difference between the two?

 

thanks

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6 minutes ago, kennyhickey said:

I’m really interested in your opinion on the difference between the alto and the HeadRush. I’ve been eyeing frfr options. I had planned on waiting for the HeadRush to be back in stock at Sweetwater but a used ts212 w/ Bluetooth(not that Bluetooth really matters to me) just showed up on my local Craigslist for $150.

 

The powercab option is enticing but more than I would prefer to spend. Just a bedroom rocker at this time.

 

Have you only played bass thru your frfr’s?

 

In your opinion is there really that much of a difference between the two?

 

thanks

 

Like I said, I don't have the TS212, I have the TS210, and my perceptions are based on that.

IMO, yes, the FRFR-112 sounds that much better for both guitar and bass. And yes, I spent considerable time playing guitar thru it before I sent the Helix in for service. While it's been in service, I've been using Native which, to me, sounds exactly like the hardware version, and sounds much better thru the FRFR-112 than thru the TS210.

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36 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

Like I said, I don't have the TS212, I have the TS210, and my perceptions are based on that.

IMO, yes, the FRFR-112 sounds that much better for both guitar and bass. And yes, I spent considerable time playing guitar thru it before I sent the Helix in for service. While it's been in service, I've been using Native which, to me, sounds exactly like the hardware version, and sounds much better thru the FRFR-112 than thru the TS210.

Thank you Sir for your response.

When I get the fever for new gear, it’s hard to wait, lol

 

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On 4/24/2018 at 2:41 PM, jws1982 said:

I have a Celestion K12H-200TC “full range” 12 speaker arriving tomorrow, which I’ll first be throwing in a spider valve 112 for fun.  The spider valve’s are great tube combos for a helix.  Perhaps with this speaker, it’ll sound good with my IR’s turned on as well.   I use an additional frfr speaker on stage only when some stage volume is needed (I still send direct to FOH). This could be a good amp-style alternative like the new powercabs. 

Update.  The k12h-200tc didn’t have enough range in the high-end, whether it was in my 112 spider valve or a separate dedicated enclosure.   

 

Ended up up getting a yahama DXR10, and it’s just fantastic.  Better sound than the other speakers I’ve tried (Alto TS series, JBL Eon 610, Eon One).  So much headroom and clarity comes out of that speaker.  

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FWIW - per Headrush/Alto support, the difference between the FRFR-112 and the new Alto TS312:

 

"As mention in my previous email, The FRFR 112 is a full range/ flat freq response, ideal for monitoring and does not have any preamp built inside for microphone usage compare to the TS series from alto professional. That would be the difference between the two items."

 

So, no built-in mic preamps means if you're using XLR, you need to set it to LINE. Otherwise, the only difference is the logo.

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5 hours ago, rd2rk said:

FWIW - per Headrush/Alto support, the difference between the FRFR-112 and the new Alto TS312:

 

"As mention in my previous email, The FRFR 112 is a full range/ flat freq response, ideal for monitoring and does not have any preamp built inside for microphone usage compare to the TS series from alto professional. That would be the difference between the two items."

 

So, no built-in mic preamps means if you're using XLR, you need to set it to LINE. Otherwise, the only difference is the logo.

 

So glad you posted.  I was about to pull the trigger on the TS312 at GC.  Need to be patient I guess

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Actually, I'm feeling kinda burned. If the ONLY difference is that the FRFR-112 lacks mic preamps, I'd'a rather got the TS312 and had the additional functionality - without the giant Headrush logo.

 

Does a mic preamp color the sound? Does using the 1/4" input on a powered cab like the TS series bypass the mic pre? Anybody know?

 

I might buy the TS312, compare the two, and return the HR-112 to SW if I can't tell the difference.

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7 hours ago, rd2rk said:

Actually, I'm feeling kinda burned. If the ONLY difference is that the FRFR-112 lacks mic preamps, I'd'a rather got the TS312 and had the additional functionality - without the giant Headrush logo.

 

Does a mic preamp color the sound? Does using the 1/4" input on a powered cab like the TS series bypass the mic pre? Anybody know?

 

I might buy the TS312, compare the two, and return the HR-112 to SW if I can't tell the difference.

 

The only real difference between a mic preamp and a non mic preamp is the signal level it's prepared to work with.  It certainly doesn't color the sound or else pretty much every vocal you've ever heard live or on a recording would not sound like the actually vocalist's voice since they all work with MIC level inputs rather than LINE level inputs.  MIC level is a significantly lower voltage level signal than is a LINE level and it's primary value has always been less loss and interference over very long cable runs.  Obviously that's not an issue with an on-stage monitor connected to a 1/4" output on a Helix.  Interestingly enough, LINE level signals are what's normally used as the output levels coming off of a mixing board, so the fact the FRFR-112 uses only LINE level signals doesn't preclude it from being used  as a normal stage monitor or even speaker from a mixing board.

 

As far as bypassing a mic pre, that may be an design decision more than an industry standard although I will say that most higher end powered speakers have a switch or toggle that determines the level being used on a given input which suggests a different circuit at least.  In my experience, Alto's use of the gain knob position to determine levels is unique and may be that way due to cost saving considerations.

 

Bottom line the main thing you lose with the FRFR-112 is the ability to directly plug a microphone into the speaker.  So if you're planning on loaning it to someone that wants to use it on a pole to publically address an audience at a meeting, don't do it because it won't work without some additional equipment.

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FRFR related:  I have a 6 month old, mint condition Yamaha DXR12 speaker available for sale if anyone is interested.
Has not left my studio.  Original box, manual, Power cord etc...     $495 + shipping.  Located in 14225 zip code.
No issues or damage.  Just not using it.  

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10 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

...

The only real difference between a mic preamp and a non mic preamp is the signal level it's prepared to work with.  It certainly doesn't color the sound or else pretty much every vocal you've ever heard live or on a recording would not sound like the actually vocalist's voice since they all work with MIC level inputs rather than LINE level inputs.  ...

 

Not sure I understood your post correctly? Were you saying there is no difference in tone between mic preamps or between mic preamps and non mic preamps?  Mic preamps can definitely color the tone. High quality mixing boards tend to have better mic pres to my ears and tube pres can sound different from digital or solid state. There are also differences in dynamic range and other factors that can impact the vocal sound. Seems like you were getting at something else here than that though.

 

https://www.uaudio.com/blog/top-5-reasons-mic-preamps-matter/

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19 minutes ago, HonestOpinion said:

 

Not sure I understood your post correctly? Were you saying there is no difference in tone between mic preamps or between mic preamps and non mic preamps?  Mic preamps can definitely color the tone. High quality mixing boards tend to have better mic pres to my ears and tube pres can sound different from digital or solid state. There are also differences in dynamic range and other factors that can impact the vocal sound. Seems like you were getting at something else here than that though.

 

https://www.uaudio.com/blog/top-5-reasons-mic-preamps-matter/

 

I was actually referring to the preamps used in mixing boards for live use and in powered speakers.  There are certainly much more high end pre's used in recording situations, and in some cases on high end boards, but the ones on mixing boards and powered speakers are relatively generic in nature for the most part.  Quite frankly I honestly can't tell the difference in the mic pre's on an Allen & Heath from those in a Mackie board, and I'm not sure the audience can either.  But it does make for some good marketing.

 

Of course all of that stuff matters significantly to folks like Universal Audio which have built their company on high end, specialized equipment.  But I'm just not that much of a cork sniffer I guess when it comes to that sort of minutia.

 

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42 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

I was actually referring to the preamps used in mixing boards for live use and in powered speakers.  There are certainly much more high end pre's used in recording situations, and in some cases on high end boards, but the ones on mixing boards and powered speakers are relatively generic in nature for the most part.  Quite frankly I honestly can't tell the difference in the mic pre's on an Allen & Heath from those in a Mackie board, and I'm not sure the audience can either.  But it does make for some good marketing.

 

Of course all of that stuff matters significantly to folks like Universal Audio which have built their company on high end, specialized equipment.  But I'm just not that much of a cork sniffer I guess when it comes to that sort of minutia.

 

 

I know what you mean about the cork sniffing. As you point out the mic/line pres probably don't vary that much when it comes to the ones used on the backs of similarly priced powered speakers. I do think there is more variance in the pres between mixing boards. Still, in the hands of a great soundman a crappy board with budget mic pres can sound better than a Midas or Allen & Heath with a hack at the controls. There are lots of other factors to getting good sound. Still remain a fan of quality mic pres and different mic pres though. As you said in your original post the biggest impact may be in the event that you need to plug a mic directly into your powered speaker and, oh no, it doesn't have a mic pre or a mic/line level switch that would serve. That's where the mic input on the Helix might come in very handy.

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Mic pre’s on most equipment are typically more about headroom and clarity than they are coloring the tone.   They’re designed to be transparent.   So no, you won’t typically hear much, if any, difference in low-level vs high-end mixer pre-amps...until you’re using a lot of them simultaneously.   Then, the better headroom / noise floor really becomes apparent.  

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21 hours ago, rd2rk said:

Actually, I'm feeling kinda burned. If the ONLY difference is that the FRFR-112 lacks mic preamps, I'd'a rather got the TS312 and had the additional functionality - without the giant Headrush logo.

 

So, if the lack of a mic preamp is the ONLY difference, imparts no special tonal advantage, and both units are the same price, then other than the free advertising from the giant logo, I wonder what's the point of the Headrush? Being the same company, they certainly knew that the TS312 was on the way. Seems like a good way to give the Headrush brand a negative image, selling a lesser device for the same price?

 

 

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2 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

So, if the lack of a mic preamp is the ONLY difference, imparts no special tonal advantage, and both units are the same price, then other than the free advertising from the giant logo, I wonder what's the point of the Headrush? Being the same company, they certainly knew that the TS312 was on the way. Seems like a good way to give the Headrush brand a negative image, selling a lesser device for the same price?

 

 

 

If that truly is the only difference between the Alto and the Headrush, I find no flaws in your logic. If there weren't changes in the cabinet, baffles, crossover, amplifier, etc. - something, anything, to add value to an FRFR targeted at guitar modeling I would want to return the Headrush for the Alto as the Headrush would then be nothing but a feature impaired TS312. I think it is worth following up with the company on for a confirmation or return.

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I just sent the following to the guy at InMusic/Headrush/Alto who gave me the initial info:

 

"Sorry if it seems like I'm being obtuse or combative, BUT....

 
If the lack of a mic preamp is the ONLY difference, imparts no special tonal advantage, and both units are the same price, then other than the free advertising from the giant logo, I wonder what's the point of the Headrush FRFR-112? Being the same company, you certainly knew that the TS312 was on the way. Seems like a good way to give the Headrush brand a negative image, selling a lesser device for the same price?
 
OR.... is there actually a voicing difference that you, personally, are unaware of? If there's someone there with a better explanation of what's going on here, you really should get them involved, because I'm 5 minutes away from returning this to Sweetwater and posting my experience on every music and guitar forum of which I'm a member (which is every one that matters). What gives?"
 
----------------------------
 
I imagine I won't hear back until Tuesday or Wednesday. I'm also going to let my Sweetwater rep know about it. If, in fact, this whole FRFR-112 thing is just a marketing scam, they're not going to get away with it. I'm not normally a vengeful person, but we deserve better than this!
 
 

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I'd be extremely, like blown over surprised if the headrush and the alto weren't made by the same people.

 

I love my TS-210. I drilled a hole in it and mounted a powerstrip wired before the on off switch, and velcroed my interface and anything else I needed for it. The mix out on it, like the headrush, follows the volume knobs, so you still need a di or something else handy for the soundman...unless of course you own a Helix, and then you can do it on the helix!

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19 hours ago, rd2rk said:

I just sent the following to the guy at InMusic/Headrush/Alto who gave me the initial info:

 

"Sorry if it seems like I'm being obtuse or combative, BUT....

 
If the lack of a mic preamp is the ONLY difference, imparts no special tonal advantage, and both units are the same price, then other than the free advertising from the giant logo, I wonder what's the point of the Headrush FRFR-112? Being the same company, you certainly knew that the TS312 was on the way. Seems like a good way to give the Headrush brand a negative image, selling a lesser device for the same price?
 
OR.... is there actually a voicing difference that you, personally, are unaware of? If there's someone there with a better explanation of what's going on here, you really should get them involved, because I'm 5 minutes away from returning this to Sweetwater and posting my experience on every music and guitar forum of which I'm a member (which is every one that matters). What gives?"
 
----------------------------
 
I imagine I won't hear back until Tuesday or Wednesday. I'm also going to let my Sweetwater rep know about it. If, in fact, this whole FRFR-112 thing is just a marketing scam, they're not going to get away with it. I'm not normally a vengeful person, but we deserve better than this!
 
 

No need to go bad-mouthing them everywhere.   Yes, of course the product is just a rebranded product from another one of the parent company’s brands.  Companies do these marketing tactics all the time.  No need for them spend a bunch of time and money adjusting/changing the speaker’s components at it’s price range.   If it works and you like it, great.  If not, leave them be. 

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8 hours ago, jws1982 said:

No need to go bad-mouthing them everywhere.   Yes, of course the product is just a rebranded product from another one of the parent company’s brands.  Companies do these marketing tactics all the time.  No need for them spend a bunch of time and money adjusting/changing the speaker’s components at it’s price range.   If it works and you like it, great.  If not, leave them be. 

 

Not "bad-mouthing" at all. THEY marketed it as being especially made for use with modelers. That's more than just rebranding a PA speaker. If it's nothing more than a marketing scam, and you're OK with that, buy two. I don't think it's something they should be allowed to get away with. My intent is simply to post what THEY tell me, like I did here, everyplace  that people ask "what's the best FRFR speaker to use with my MODELER?". I believe that I mentioned here (if you read the whole thread), and will mention wherever else I post, that it sounds really good. BUT, if it's actually a function impaired VERSION of a PA speaker, and you can get a FULLY FUNCTIONAL otherwise identical product for the same price, people should be aware of that. That's NOT bad-mouthing, that's spreading the true word, IN THE MFR'S OWN WORDS!

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On 5/4/2018 at 4:23 AM, DunedinDragon said:

As far as bypassing a mic pre, that may be an design decision more than an industry standard although I will say that most higher end powered speakers have a switch or toggle that determines the level being used on a given input which suggests a different circuit at least.  In my experience, Alto's use of the gain knob position to determine levels is unique and may be that way due to cost saving considerations.

 

Wouldn't that be the same as the way that mixing boards handle it, one end of the knob being "LINE" and the other being "MIC", but the "PRE" always engaged at some level? Or am I misunderstanding how that works?

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10 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Wouldn't that be the same as the way that mixing boards handle it, one end of the knob being "LINE" and the other being "MIC", but the "PRE" always engaged at some level? Or am I misunderstanding how that works?

It depends on the board.  Many have a preamp that covers the range between mic and line levels, but some have a switch, and I've seen some that pretty much confine line level to 1/4" and mic level to XLR.  But most relatively modern ones have a wide range preamp controlled by gain/trim knob.  That hasn't been the predominant case on powered speakers from what I've seen.  Most are controlled either by a switch or by dedicated inputs.  What seems to be coming on as a "standard" for the most part is a Microphone input that's always mic level and a line input that's switchable in some way between line and mic.

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1 hour ago, DunedinDragon said:

It depends on the board.  Many have a preamp that covers the range between mic and line levels, but some have a switch, and I've seen some that pretty much confine line level to 1/4" and mic level to XLR.  But most relatively modern ones have a wide range preamp controlled by gain/trim knob.  That hasn't been the predominant case on powered speakers from what I've seen.  Most are controlled either by a switch or by dedicated inputs.  What seems to be coming on as a "standard" for the most part is a Microphone input that's always mic level and a line input that's switchable in some way between line and mic.

 

Since the Alto TS series doesn't differentiate the inputs, it's a pretty safe bet that it's the always-on wide range preamp type configuration. So, unless the preamp significantly colors the sound, there would be no tonal reason to remove the preamp in the Headrush. That brings me to the conclusion that, either by design or cost restraints (crappy preamp used to keep costs down?), the TS series is NOT nearly FRFR (though a decent budget speaker for PA/DJ use), and it's a happy coincidence that removing the preamp makes it MORE FRFR so that it sounds better with modelers (IMO) than the TS.

 

Increased profits through product improvement as a result of feature subtraction! COOL! Since the preamp circuitry probably costs all of $5, I can see why they didn't bother changing the price.

 

All in all, a logical explanation, though likely not one they'll admit....bottom line, I didn't buy it for PA/DJ use, it sounds really good with Helix, and it's cheap! I think I'll keep it!

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You got what you bought.    If you now wish you had bought something else, return it. 

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8 minutes ago, TonyHay said:

You got what you bought.    If you now wish you had bought something else, return it. 

 

You might want to read the entire thread....

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29 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

You might want to read the entire thread....

I did.  I still think you got what you bought. 

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39 minutes ago, TonyHay said:

I did.  I still think you got what you bought. 

 

You're right! I got what I bought!

 

It's good to know that there are still people in America who believe in the time honored business traditions of false or misleading advertising and "Let the buyer beware".

Maybe I can still sell that beautiful ocean-front property in Phoenix....I don't suppose you'd be interested?

 

"What?", you say, "it's just a big mud puddle you've named 'The Arizona Ocean!'" So? Those retirees who invested their life savings got what they bought!

 

As another respondent pointed out, it's not uncommon, lots of companies do it. That doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make me wrong for wanting to set the record straight.

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I am mystified as to why people are writing posts chastising rd2rk for being justifiably disappointed by the responses he has gotten directly from Headrush/Alto regarding their new Headrush FRFR. When did it become ok for a company to use its image, in Headrush's case as a modeler company, to market a new product under what appear to me to be dubious pretenses? I would think most consumers would expect the Headrush to be something other than just a feature impaired version of something else Alto sells at exactly the same price. They are expecting an FRFR that is specifically designed and tuned to sound better with modelers. Consumers naturally make that assumption and that is what inMusic is counting on or they wouldn't have bothered rebranding what appears to be, according to their own support department, a limited version speaker of the exact same Alto speaker they sell for PA usage.

 

How is it that rd2rk somehow becomes the bad guy for having done the research and discovering that it is appears to be nothing more than a marketing ploy and not a product that has been redesigned for its target audience? He has been posting up the exact quotes from the company! His comments are not based on an opinion. The ball is in Headrush's court now to substantiate how their speaker is a superior choice to the Alto which seems to have the exact same specs and capacity to be used with a modeler but also includes a mic (or general use) preamp that can be leveraged for a PA as well. I for one applaud rd2rk for shedding some much needed light on this subject. He is not just complaining or expressing sour grapes about having purchased a product that is "as advertised" but that he doesn't like. If that were the case the comments that express the sentiment essentially of "live with it or return it, you got exactly what was expected" would be right on target. As a matter of fact he appears to like the Headrush, he is just sharing the fact that it appears to be a limited version of another brand's PA speaker at exactly the same price.

 

Right now this product appears to be more about marketing than substance. That doesn't mean it isn't worth getting, just that you should know what you are getting. That marketing is IMHO somewhat misleading or at best incomplete given the other information they provided after he followed up.  Information provided only when they were directly asked. I would love to see Headrush provide more details as to the Headrush design if that is not actually the case. If one of their reps sees these posts I would encourage them to post up additional details if the Headrush includes more in the way of  a resdesign targeted towards users of modelers. If the Headrush is indeed only a rebranding of the Alto minus a feature it is up to consumers to inform each other that they may want to buy the Alto instead unless you prefer the Headrush logo, and are ok with an input that cannot double as a mic input. Now that is truth in advertising and some buyers will still prefer the Headrush but at least they will know exactly what they are getting. As it should be!

 

I would ask this, how would people feel if they found out if for example that Line6's new PowerCab speaker was nothing more than a rebranded L3t that had some of the features stripped away, and they were selling for exactly the same price? This is of course not the case! The PowerCab is an entirely new animal and approach with extremely innovative and different speaker technology optimized for modeling, and I might add a lower price than the L3t. That is probably to a much lesser extent what people were expecting with the Headrush.  Headrush purchasers weren't expecting the same level of innovation that we see in the PowerCab series but I use the analogy just to make the point. I think it is fair to say that although some were already dubious, many buyers were expecting, given the Headrush branding to get a new brand of FRFR, specifically intended for guitar modeling, rather than just an Alto speaker with a Headrush logo. I am very appreciative when anyone provides me with information that helps me make an informed purchase, especially when it is counter to what I have been led to believe. I think that is what rd2rk has done here unless and until new information comes to light. Let's not kill the messenger!

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13 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

I am mystified as to why people are writing posts chastising rd2rk for being justifiably disappointed by the responses he has gotten directly from Headrush/Alto regarding their new Headrush FRFR. When did it become ok for a company to use its image, in Headrush's case as a modeler company, to market a new product under what appear to me to be dubious pretenses? I would think most consumers would expect the Headrush to be something other than just a feature impaired version of something else Alto sells at exactly the same price. They are expecting an FRFR that is specifically designed and tuned to sound better with modelers. Consumers naturally make that assumption and that is what inMusic is counting on or they wouldn't have bothered rebranding what appears to be, according to their own support department, a limited version speaker of the exact same Alto speaker they sell for PA usage.

 

How is it that rd2rk somehow becomes the bad guy for having done the research and discovering that it is appears to be nothing more than a marketing ploy and not a product that has been redesigned for its target audience? He has been posting up the exact quotes from the company! His comments are not based on an opinion. The ball is in Headrush's court now to substantiate how their speaker is a superior choice to the Alto which seems to have the exact same specs and capacity to be used with a modeler but also includes a mic (or general use) preamp that can be leveraged for a PA as well. I for one applaud rd2rk for shedding some much needed light on this subject. He is not just complaining or expressing sour grapes about having purchased a product that is "as advertised" but that he doesn't like. If that were the case the comments that express the sentiment essentially of "live with it or return it, you got exactly what was expected" would be right on target. As a matter of fact he appears to like the Headrush, he is just sharing the fact that it appears to be a limited version of another brand's PA speaker at exactly the same price.

 

Right now this product appears to be more about marketing than substance. That doesn't mean it isn't worth getting, just that you should know what you are getting. That marketing is IMHO somewhat misleading or at best incomplete given the other information they provided after he followed up.  Information provided only when they were directly asked. I would love to see Headrush provide more details as to the Headrush design if that is not actually the case. If one of their reps sees these posts I would encourage them to post up additional details if the Headrush includes more in the way of  a resdesign targeted towards users of modelers. If the Headrush is indeed only a rebranding of the Alto minus a feature it is up to consumers to inform each other that they may want to buy the Alto instead unless you prefer the Headrush logo, and are ok with an input that cannot double as a mic input. Now that is truth in advertising and some buyers will still prefer the Headrush but at least they will know exactly what they are getting. As it should be!

 

I would ask this, how would people feel if they found out if for example that Line6's new PowerCab speaker was nothing more than a rebranded L3t that had some of the features stripped away, and they were selling for exactly the same price? This is of course not the case! The PowerCab is an entirely new animal and approach with extremely innovative and different speaker technology optimized for modeling, and I might add a lower price than the L3t. That is probably to a much lesser extent what people were expecting with the Headrush.  Headrush purchasers weren't expecting the same level of innovation that we see in the PowerCab series but I use the analogy just to make the point. I think it is fair to say that although some were already dubious, many buyers were expecting, given the Headrush branding to get a new brand of FRFR, specifically intended for guitar modeling, rather than just an Alto speaker with a Headrush logo. I am very appreciative when anyone provides me with information that helps me make an informed purchase, especially when it is counter to what I have been led to believe. I think that is what rd2rk has done here unless and until new information comes to light. Let's not kill the messenger!

Then why doesn’t he return it for the option which he believes is the same but with better features?   

 

 

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43 minutes ago, TonyHay said:

Then why doesn’t he return it for the option which he believes is the same but with better features?   

 

 

Obviously, only 'he' can answer this; but from what I'm reading, he's understandably irritated by the company's attitude to its customers.

 

ie that the product 'designed especially for modelling guitarists', is actually a cut-down version of an existing product, with a nice logo, and no price reduction for the feature removed.

 

If he wants to push back against this kind of marketing BS, I think that's a good thing. 

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Line 6 Powercab Plus is shipping from SW today.  It will join a Mission Gemini 2 (2x12) and a Xitone MBritt convertible open/closed back (1x12).

I may keep all 3, I may sell the least favorite between the Powercab and the Xitone.  Interested to see how the Powercab Plus stacks up

with the other two.

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Below is the conversation that I had with Headrush/Inmusicbrands Support concerning the differences between the Headrush FRFR-112 and the Alto TS312.

 

If, at some points, I seemed to be abrasive, and that bothers you, sorry 'bout that! I don't like being  jerked around.

 

Up front I would like to say that my FRFR-112, which replaced an AltoTS210, sounds REALLY GOOD!

 

YMMV, Caveat Emptor.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ME: 4/30/2018
I bought one of the first that Sweetwater received, for use with my Line6 Helix. As an active member of the L6 Helix forum, the question has arisen - What is the difference between the FRFR-112 and the new Alto TS312 (other than the logo)? Since Alto has not made the specs available to their dealers OR on their website.

 

HRS (Head Rush Support): 5/3/2018
Thank you for reaching out to us.  I appreciate the opportunity to assist you! 
The FRFR 12 is a full range speaker, so this will allow backing tracks to come through as well.  it has the power and frequency range to handle such a task. 
-  full range/ flat freq response
-  ideal for monitoring
If you have additional questions or concerns, or if the information we provided today does not help completely resolve your inquiry, please let me know!

 

ME: 5/3/2018
Thank you for your reply. 
Please answer the question, which was: 
"As an active member of the L6 Helix forum, the question has arisen - What is the difference between the FRFR-112 and the new Alto TS312 (other than the logo)?" 
I know what FRFR means, that's WHY I bought the FRFR-112.
Note the word "difference", which is the essence of the question.

 

HRS (Head Rush Support): 5/3 2018
Hello, 
As mention in my previous email, The FRFR 112 is a full range/ flat freq response, ideal for monitoring and does not have any preamp built inside for microphone usage compare to the TS series from alto professional. That would be the difference between the two items. 
Thank you for the opportunity to assist!  Please let me know if I can be of further assistance! 
Best Regards,

 

ME: 5/4/2018
Sorry if it seems like I'm being obtuse or combative, BUT.... 
If the lack of a mic preamp is the ONLY difference, imparts no special tonal advantage, and both units are the same price, then other than the free advertising from the giant logo, I wonder what's the point of the Headrush FRFR-112? Being the same company, you certainly knew that the TS312 was on the way. Seems like a good way to give the Headrush brand a negative image, selling a lesser device for the same price? 
OR.... is there actually a voicing difference that you, personally, are unaware of? If there's someone there with a better explanation of what's going on here, you really should get them involved, because I'm 5 minutes away from returning this to Sweetwater and posting my experience on every music and guitar forum of which I'm a member (which is every one that matters). What gives?

 

HRS: 5/7/2018
Hello, 
Completely understand, I have CC’d in this message one of my senior technician in the department, (name redacted to protect the guilty), he will gladly be able to further assist with your question. 
Thank you for the opportunity to assist!  Please let me know if I can be of further assistance! 
Best Regards, 

 

HRS: 5/9/2018 Senior Technician
Hi EJ, 
Thank you for contacting me I’m glad to assist! 
The biggest differences between the TS3 series speakers and the FRFR 112 will be the flat response for a much cleaner guitar tone. Connecting a guitar to the TS3 speakers will give you an EQ curve that may be undesirable. 
Let me know if you have any questions!

 

ME: 5/9/2018
Thanks for responding. Here is what we're all wondering.
Below is from the "Features and Specs":
Features
1-Specially-voiced 12-inch woofer and high-frequency compression driver deliver a precise, full response across the entire frequency range without any artificial coloration
2-2000 watts of peak power delivers clarity, punch and enough headroom for any venue
3-(2) XLR/TRS 1/4-inch combo inputs with independent volume controls and clip indicator
4-Contour EQ switch helps you cut through muddy-sounding stage mixes
5-Ground-Lift switch eliminates unwanted noise at venues with grounding issues
6-6LR output sends your mix to the front of house or links additional FRFR-112 cabinets
7-Lightweight and flexible tilt-back cabinet design that can also be pole-mounted
Questions:
1- This seems to indicate that the speaker (the most important part of guitar tone) is NOT the same as the TS312, despite the specs being identical. YES or NO?
4- On the TS series, this is a typical boost lows and highs to compensate the Fletcher Munson curve and accentuate the "DJ" frequencies. "Cutting through the mix", on guitar, is usually accomplished by boosting the mids. Does this switch do the former or the latter? OR?
How much of the "flat response" is accomplished by the "Specially-voiced 12-inch woofer and high-frequency compression driver", and how much is the result of eliminating the PA/DJ tuned mic preamp? Is the FRFR-112 really just a function impaired TS312?
These questions are important to the modeling community because many are saying "Just get the TS312, it's the same thing." Inquiring minds want to know, what, exactly, IS the difference, or is it all just marketing hype?
Again, I'm not being combative, I really LIKE the way my FRFR-112 sounds. But as the saying goes, "The devil is in the details".

 

ME: 5/17/2018
So, I'm led to assume, from your lack of further response, that the ONLY difference between the FRFR-112 and the TS312 is the lack of mic preamps in the FRFR-112. That the speaker system is exactly the same, the contour switch is the same boost lows/highs, and there are no other differences (other than the grill)?
Speak now, as this conversation WILL be posted on the modeling forums!

 

HRS: 5/17/2018 Senior Technician
Hi EJ, 
Thank you for contacting me I’m glad to assist! 
Sorry for the delay in response. As mentioned before, the major differences between the two speakers will be the mic preamps and the response curve 
Let me know if you have any questions!

 

ME: 5/17/2018
"... the major differences between the two speakers will be the mic preamps and the response curve" 
Just so that I'm sure that I understand you correctly,  the difference in the response curve is therefore the result of the absence of mic preamps. Yes?

 

HRS: 5/17/2018 Senior Tecnician
Hi EJ, 
Thank you for contacting me I’m glad to assist! 
The result for the absence of a mic preamp is due to the FRFR being a guitar monitor, so there was not a need to include mic pres 
Let me know if you have any questions!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Draw your own conclusions.

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Color me 100% unsurprised that the removal of a mic preamp that costs less than 100 dollars a channel could change for the better: distortion, signal to noise ratio, self noise, bandwidth and frequency response

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On 4/30/2018 at 5:46 AM, rd2rk said:

Also... I'm actually a bass player. The Headrush sounds GREAT with both an ME50B plugged straight in, and the Helix bass presets, which didn't impress me thru the TS210, sound really good thru it! I'd been looking for a lightweight Class D amp, and not being impressed by what I was hearing at the ridiculous prices that are being asked. The Headrush and the Helix just might do the trick.

how does it handle the low lows? I've been wanting to go FRFR for a long time, but i was afraid to lose that "woof", chest vibrating feeling that you can get with bass speakers (even my unexpensive 412 peavey)

 

On 5/7/2018 at 10:03 PM, HonestOpinion said:

I would think most consumers would expect the Headrush to be something other than just a feature impaired version of something else Alto sells at exactly the same price.

it is actually worse than that, down in europe the headrush is sold for a (slightly) higher price than the alto. At least in the few regular online shops where i usually buy my stuff.

 

I will probably buy the headrush anyway since I don't want to take the risk of that mic preamp coloring my tone. Now, if it can be bypassed, that's another story

 

 

Ps: i just read that e-mail exchange... It feels like they either have reading comprehension problems or purposely tried not to clearly answer your question (like the last one)

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I don't have experience with these particular products being debated, but I do know gear! A MIC pre is not a feature you want in a cabinet aimed to guitar players unless there is an input that bypasses it completely. If the Alto has both a flat input and a mic pre input - it's a feature.... if it's just a mic pre input, I'd pass on it and gladly pay the same price for the headrush. 

 

1 hour ago, BigJayBrian said:

Ps: i just read that e-mail exchange... It feels like they either have reading comprehension problems or purposely tried not to clearly answer your question (like the last one)

 

It is likely a response center that has a choice of canned answers to choose from. When the question goes beyond the canned answer, they don't know what to say because most often they simply don't know the product or the answer.

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On 4/30/2018 at 1:52 PM, willjrock said:

Well

Its pretty often i see a topic, and then somebody will have an opinion, and then somebody comes along and jumps on that person for having an opinion they dont agree with. That where things almost always go down hill.  Your post was quoted as more of an example. As i said, i wasnt speaking about you specifically, and i know you are usually pretty cool.. If i were, i would have followed up your next post by defending my views. . Im not doing that, im apologetic if anything, so lets move on.

 

 

 

Well...my comments had nothing to do with having a different opinion on anything. The poster I was referencing was rude and made personal comments toward someone. Not an opinion on the topic at hand. That is what I addressed and why I quoted him specifically. The rudeness nastiness and namecalling is what I spoke to. Not an opinion of it.  Exactly what I believe you are saying you were referring to. I, in no way, addressed the topic nor an opinion either way on it, or anything else. I thought that was obvious. So I would say that my post was no example at all of what you say you were addressing. As an example of that, it was a misguided one at best.

And again. I realize you say you weren't speaking about/to me specifically but when you quote a poster, it's my understanding that the reason for doing that is to make clear whom a poster is specifically responding/refering to. If you want to move on, move on. But as long as you keep quoting me, which I take to mean you are addressing me specifically, I will continue to respond. I mean you've quoted me in the last couple of posts. It was because you were addressing me specifically wasn't it? So you're not ignorant to the purpose of quoting someone. You quoted me first, which generally means you are talking to me specifically. You didn't say here's an example of what I'm talking about (which it wasn't an example of anyway). So I responded to someone who was talking to me. Or at least was giving all the signals that they were. I can't read peoples minds. So let's move on, shall we? Or we can continue to chat. All the same to me.

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perhaps to keep in mind that a monitor is a bit more than throwing one ot two drivers in a cabinet. Aktive stuff has mostly active crossover/EQ, analog or digital. In the scond case, it's "just" a piece of software but the user cannot change or update it. (one reason for me to build my cabs myself)

Small changes in this software can cause big differences in sound with the same drivers in the same baffles. it even can influence "beaming" or dissipation by changing the crossover frequency within the limits of the used drivers.

Just to know that - even if it looks the same with the same drivers and the same housing, is can sound very different.

So it would for example be possible to offer a preset "guitar speaker" (no frfr) Tweeter off gives the same dissipation/beaming as a conventional 12" guitar speaker. Than a bit EQing to pull the frequency response direction Celestion XX and wow - a powered guitar speaker is only a switch away. Why somebody should offer such a feature in a monitor never aimed to guitarrists? Stupid for Alto, clever for headrush.

I could understand when a manufacturer/brand will not communicate such dirty little tricks. Competitors are reading too and in guitarists world, spreading mojo and voodoo seems often more important than technical facts ;)

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5 hours ago, BigJayBrian said:

how does it handle the low lows? I've been wanting to go FRFR for a long time, but i was afraid to lose that "woof", chest vibrating feeling that you can get with bass speakers (even my unexpensive 412 peavey)

 

It's not the "ultimate bass rig", it's not gonna "bring the thunder" from your low B, but for average small combo r'n'r purposes, it'll do nicely! I'm considering getting a second one and setting them next to one another slightly off-axis for a "bipole" effect with bass. And of course, the ping-pong delay with guitar.....but I'm hoping that someone will try the Powercab with bass and report in on that!

 

 

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