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Axxxeman

BIG BUG or just a misconception???

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Dear Helix (floor) experts, I need your help, having an issue on the A/B-switch.

I'll describe my setup first: I am using the helix (2.53) in dual mode: 1 signal path goes usually directly into FOH, the other one is used to feed my amp by 4-cable-method (4CM). That gives a nice, fat sound, like 3 rhythm guitarists playing unisono. In my setlist I use a preset for every single song we play and do the in-song-changing (amp channel and master volume [MIDI], FX etc.) with snapshots.

 

Task & solution:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I am supposed to play the opener and I have 3 signal paths planned for this to get huge, spacey sounds out of my guitar and helix. One (path 2) is used for a synthesizer pad sound (no guitar signal in) by 3 OSC synth (XLR out into FOH). This one should not concern us anymore, works exactly as it should. The other signal path 1 (guitar input) is split up (A/B switch): Path 1A (above) is feeding the signal into a FX chain, the output goes directly into FOH (XLR left/right). Works fine, too. Path 1B of this signal path is going by SEND/RETURN 1 and some FX into my amp (1/4" out). This one works as well.

The 4 snapshots and their sequence would be:

  • 1: start with path 1A (FX - A/B switch = [A100%] - of course, with the brackets!!)
  • 2: add path 2 (synth pad - identical to snapshot 1, just turning on the 3 OSC synth)
  • 3: add path 1B (amp - identical to snapshot 2, just A/B switch turned to [even])
  • 4: finishing the opener with just path 1B active (only amp, nothing else - like snapshot 1, just with A/B switch adjusted to [B100%]).

 

The problem:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Helix does not seem to be consistent with this A/B switch. It all works as intended until I get to reach snapshot 3. Once the A/B-switch has changed to [A/B even], it won't accept any other setting anymore (exception: snapshot 1). Means, it stays on [even], ignoring the individual path programming in snapshot 2 and 4. The display DOES show the original programming, but the DSP is simply ignoring it.

 

Anyone got any idea, what exactly is the problem behind this and how it can be solved??? I am really puzzled here ...

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I'm going to need some photographic help for this one. Can you put a screenshot of your preset up, or even just upload your preset? I get lost in these long text descriptions of stuff like this.

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Just now, phil_m said:

I'm going to need some photographic help for this one. Can you put a screenshot of your preset up, or even just upload your preset? I get lost in these long text descriptions of stuff like this.

 

Unfortunately not or not yet. Problem is, that the HELIX is located in our rehearsal room. Due to my absence from town I will not have access to it for a while. Unfortunately my settings can be programmed and tested only with the PA and amp at hand, so I have it rarely at home. I'll try to get to it within a week.

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This is prettty hard to diagnose without being there but it kind of sounds like one of your parameters isn't assigned to snapshots. Often when snapshots doesn't do what I want it to, that's been the reason. Pan, level, mix, etc.. I'm not sure what. That would be the firs thing I would look at. Make sure every parameter involved is assigned to snapshots. Snapshots are great but it's easy to get lost in complicated patches.

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Thank you for your suggestion. Unfortunately it opens new questions for someone like me, who is definitely not a Helix nerd:

  • How can a parameter, which is explicitely programmed, NOT be in the snapshot, when saved? How can I check / correct this problem?
  • How can this special parameter show up correctly in the Helix' display, but the sound output comes out differently?
  • How could it be possible, that a snapshot works correctly when used for the first time (1-2-3) and falsely, when used after a different snapshot (1-2-3-2)??? I understand that it could be a problem of initialization, but how to diagnose this?

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I could be completely wrong on this... but I'm throwing it out there anyway.

Aren't snapshots "auto save" by default? If it isn't default, maybe it got changed? This could cause a lot of confusion. 

 

Example 1: Setup snapshot 2, save it. Now If you edit that and save it to Snap Shot 3, both 2 and 3 will be the same because 2 auto saved and won't recall as expected. To get around this, you would need to switch to snapshot 3 before editing and so on. 

 

Example 2: You play snapshot 2, move to snapshot 3 and play a bit.... maybe turn on/off an effect or two, move an expression, go back to 2 - all fine, come back to 3 and it is the state you last left it, not the perceived "saved state". 

 

Now, that said.... it should reset to the "saved state" if you leave the patch and return to it. 

 

If that is possibly the problem, there is an option to change it so it won't auto save. Off the top of my head, I don't recall where. 

 

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7 minutes ago, codamedia said:

I could be completely wrong on this... but I'm throwing it out there anyway.

 

Aren't snapshots "auto save" by default? This could cause a lot of confusion. 

 

Example: Setup snapshot 2, save it. Now If you edit that and save it to Snap Shot 3, both 2 and 3 will be the same because 2 auto saved and won't recall as expected. To get around this, you would need to switch to snapshot 3 before editing and so on. 

 

Example 2: You play snapshot 2, move to snapshot 3 and play a bit.... maybe turn on/off an effect or two, move an expression, go back to 2 - all fine, come back to 3 and it is the state you last left it, not the perceived "saved state". 

 

If that is possibly the problem, there is an option to change it so it won't auto save. That could save some confusion.

 

 

That would be another part of what I was talking about. You have to save a lot when you do snapshots and keep track of exactly what you want. Easy to get lost. And, again, if this is the issue, it's very difficult to diganose or even tell you how to do that without actually being there. It seems to be one of those things where there are so many possibilities, each situation has it's own problems.

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7 hours ago, codamedia said:

I could be completely wrong on this... but I'm throwing it out there anyway.

Aren't snapshots "auto save" by default? If it isn't default, maybe it got changed? This could cause a lot of confusion. 

 

Example 1: Setup snapshot 2, save it. Now If you edit that and save it to Snap Shot 3, both 2 and 3 will be the same because 2 auto saved and won't recall as expected. To get around this, you would need to switch to snapshot 3 before editing and so on. 

 

Example 2: You play snapshot 2, move to snapshot 3 and play a bit.... maybe turn on/off an effect or two, move an expression, go back to 2 - all fine, come back to 3 and it is the state you last left it, not the perceived "saved state". 

 

Now, that said.... it should reset to the "saved state" if you leave the patch and return to it. 

 

If that is possibly the problem, there is an option to change it so it won't auto save. Off the top of my head, I don't recall where. 

 

 

7 hours ago, brue58ski said:

 

That would be another part of what I was talking about. You have to save a lot when you do snapshots and keep track of exactly what you want. Easy to get lost. And, again, if this is the issue, it's very difficult to diganose or even tell you how to do that without actually being there. It seems to be one of those things where there are so many possibilities, each situation has it's own problems.

 

There is currently no 'auto-save' setting in the conventional sense on the Helix. I believe you are both referring to the Global Settings --> Preferences --> 'Snapshot Edits' setting which can be set to "Discard" or "Recall".  Although this setting affects how frequently you have to save while editing, all saves still have to be explicit, whether you are saving in between snapshot changes/edits or just once for the entire preset.

 

The 'Snapshot Edits' parameter affects two operations, editing and saving of snapshots and presets, and also how on-the-fly changes are retained for the duration of the time you are in a preset when you are only performing and not saving anything. The behavior of the 'Snapshot Edits' settings are the same for both editing and performance but I broke them out for clarity.

 

Edit Preset mode (with saving)

Discard = Snapshot edits are discarded if you do not save before switching away and then back to the same snapshot When you use 'Discard' mode you are going to want to push save before you switch to a new snapshot while editing a preset. The 'Discard' setting when used during editing usually requires multiple saves per  preset when designing your snapshots.

Recall = Snapshot edits are retained between snapshot switches and only require you to save once before leaving the preset

 

Performance mode (no saving)

Discard = Any changes you make while playing live will be discarded when you switch away from and back to the snapshot. Let's say you have a snapshot with the distortion block bypassed and you activate the distortion. In 'Discard' mode, the next time you return to that snapshot the distortion block will be bypassed again, it returns back to the state the snapshot was originally saved in.

Recall = Any changes made to the snapshots while playing live will be retained until you switch presets. As long as you are only switching snapshots all your on-the-fly changes will be retained until you switch away from the preset. In this case, if you have the distortion block bypassed in a snapshot and activate it, it will remain activated in that snapshot until you manually turn it off. When you switch away from the snapshot and then return to it the distortion you turned on manually will still be on. All your snapshot changes are retained until you switch away from the preset.

 

 

 

 

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Well, I have set it on "discard", because I tend to fool around with my snapshots and don't want the result saved most of the time. So I got used to use the "save"-button many, many times when editing. I doublechecked, that every snapshot was saved manually and permanently, when having a better result than before. After each saving I even go back to snapshot 1 and save again even without having changed anything, to make sure that the preset starts with snapshot 1. So I am pretty sure, that this error possibility can be ruled out.

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Discard is probably a reasonable default. When changing snapshots during performance, you want the snapshot to set a predictable, consistent tone, that’s their primary purpose. During edit, you’d need to save every time you change a snapshot (just like you have to save every time you change a preset). And you have to do one more extra save at the end for the patch to be in the right snapshot when you select it. But that's not too bad. Just don't forget to do the save before switching the snapshot.

 

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20 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

There is currently no 'auto-save' setting in the conventional sense on the Helix. I believe you are both referring to the Global Settings --> Preferences --> 'Snapshot Edits' setting which can be set to "Discard" or "Recall". 

 

Yes - that is what I was referring to... Auto Save was a poor choice of words :) 

Thanks for the detailed clarification of how the two modes operate. 

 

16 hours ago, amsdenj said:

Discard is probably a reasonable default. When changing snapshots during performance, you want the snapshot to set a predictable, consistent tone, that’s their primary purpose.

 

I agree the discard would likely be the most common and least confusing but recall certainly has it's advantages as well. It always depends on the workflow of the player.

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4 hours ago, codamedia said:

...

Thanks for the detailed clarification of how the two modes operate. 

...

 

Thanks, I just took your post as an opportunity to put out an explanation that was kind of more directed out into the ether for anyone who might benefit from an in-depth description of those snapshot preference settings. As you indicated in your post they can definitely cause unanticipated behavior while designing snapshots if someone is unaware of them. Brue58ski and you seemed to potentially be on the right track regarding the OP's issue and both of you actually already sounded pretty familiar with snapshot usage.

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Okay, here is the pic ... AND the solution. With a hint from the facebook group I found the problem: The A/B-switch was - on some snapshots - set to "off". I never would have thought that you can bypass the switch at all, because the bypass option here is completely illogical. Bypassing has the same effect as "A/B even" and is therefore not needed. I must have hit the bypass button accidently and so deactivated the path switch. Problem is, you hardly can see the difference onscreen :-/.

 

Well now it is working exactly as intended. Thanks for all your comments and help!

IMG_2283.JPG

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6 hours ago, Axxxeman said:

Okay, here is the pic ... AND the solution. With a hint from the facebook groop I found the problem: The A/B-switch was - on some snapshots - set to "off". I never would have thought that you can bypass the switch at all, because the bypass option here is completely illogical. Bypassing has the same effect as "A/B even" and is therefore not needed. I must have hit the bypass button accidently and so deactivated the path switch. Problem is, you hardly can see the difference onscreen :-/.

 

Well now it is working exactly as intended. Thanks for all your comments and help!

IMG_2283.JPG

 

Glad you got this figured out! You can happily mark this topic solved. Now that you mention it I have had similar issues pop up where, for example, after examination it turned out there was a critical EQ block bypassed in only one snapshot within a preset that never seemed to sound as good as the rest of the snapshots. This will be helpful to someone else if this sort of scenario pops up again.

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I love it when people locate the problem and share the solution for others.... thanks @Axxxeman

I am diving into snapshots with my HX and this is the type of "gotcha" I may very well come across. 

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12 minutes ago, HonestOpinion said:

 

Glad you got this figured out! You can happily mark this topic solved. Now that you mention it I have had similar issues pop up where, for example, after examination it turned out there was a critical EQ block bypassed in only one snapshot within a preset that never seemed to sound as good as the rest of the snapshots. This will be helpful to someone else if this sort of scenario pops up again.

Glad, you tell me. I was already looking for a possibility to mark it as solved, I just can't find one. Seems well hidden. Can you tell me, where this option can be found?

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7 minutes ago, Axxxeman said:

Glad, you tell me. I was already looking for a possibility to mark it as solved, I just can't find one. Seems well hidden. Can you tell me, where this option can be found?

 

Great question and now that I look at some of the old topics I started it would appear as far as I can tell that the "Solved" button is not implemented in the new version of the forum. I hope they put this feature back in at some point or perhaps if someone else has spotted it they can let us know what the new procedure is.

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