Jump to content
srolfs

Expensive FRFR (Mission Gemini 2) v. Cheap FRFR (Alto 112): how big a difference?

Recommended Posts

Realize many FRFR threads but would like to hear from Mission Gemini users is it worth it?

 

I've been playing my Helix through a pair of Alto TS112's that I bought five years ago for $220 apiece. Didn't feel the sound was all there so for the past year been using Helix as a pedal board via 4CM into my Marshall dsl40c. 

 

Seeing these Mission Gemini 2 comments and reviews. Is it worth it for Helix?  If you made the leap to a really expensive Mission Gemini solution for your Helix did you feel the upgrade was worth the money. Any thoughts greatly appreciated. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can’t comment on the Gemini, but are you aware of the just being released (this week) Line 6 Powercab models? I am only throwing it out there as something to also consider as I haven’t heard them to make a comparison.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TS212 all the way!

it is FRFR, so it will reproduce all the sound you feed it in.  Try reposition the speakers, use Global EQ and save yourself some money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My takeaway from other threads and user posts I've read (apologies that I was too lazy to go quote them):

 

  • Alto TS312 is the updated, higher power version of the series.
  • Headrush FRFR-112 is the same as the TS312, except it's inputs do not have mic preamps on them...hence truely flat response for guitar/bass applications.  There is good feedback coming in from some users on this for bass applications.
  • Mission Gemini and Helix Powercab is based on the Eminence Beta 12CX coaxial speaker with the HF driver under the woofer dust cap. Other platforms like Atomic CLR are also coaxial, with higher end drivers (B&C?).  This coax configuration delivers highs on a central axis with the mid/low, preventing the HF beaming you can get from the separate horn from a PA-based FR platform.  Users also report coax sounds and feels more like a guitar speaker, especially at close range.
  • Helix Powercab also has raw speaker modeling without the mic for amp-in-the-room sound.  It can actually be mic'd like a guitar cab, of there can be mic models on the XLR out.

 

I've resisted FRFR since I bought Helix over two years ago.  At $299 (cheaper with coupons), the Alto or Headrush isn't much to bite off to test FRFR waters, and you could easily return it if you don't like it.

 

From an engineering perspective, the Beta 12CX based solutions for electric guitar applications made the most sense to me. I always thought Mission Gemini was way too high for what it was and was really considering building my own Beta 12CX based box. 

 

Line 6 took it one step further with raw speaker modeling, IR's in the cab, and modified speaker cone and HF driver for guitar.  This allows me to keep all cab sounds/blocks in the Powercab, separate from Helix.  I can continue to use my Line 6 Spider Valve rigs with Helix amp-only blocks (neutral tube approach), 4CM with my Mesa amps, Crate Powerblock with Mesa cabs, etc. without setting up and maintaining new presets.  Heck, I might even use my Powercab AND Spider Valve 112 MKII together wet/dry, etc.  Brilliant!!!!

 

I will probably still get the Headrush FRFR 112 soon also for bass since Powercab does not have the range or speaker cone for 5 string bass, unless Line 6 wants to make a bass Powercab ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Rewolf48 said:

Can’t comment on the Gemini, but are you aware of the just being released (this week) Line 6 Powercab models? I am only throwing it out there as something to also consider as I haven’t heard them to make a comparison.

 

Yep been reading about them here. Waiting also to see what people think. One thing that I do like about the Mission speaker is the mass. I don't plan on moving it much so I'm completely happy with that 72 pounds as really providing some sonic dimension. Noticed the Line 6 powercabs are 33 pounds although granted only one speaker. 

 

What I'm looking for with the Gemini is that true 4*12 or even 2*12 power and air moving like a Marshall stack. And wondering what people who have the Gemini 2 think of it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, line-6-user said:

TS212 all the way!

it is FRFR, so it will reproduce all the sound you feed it in.  Try reposition the speakers, use Global EQ and save yourself some money.

Sorry - wrong :(

All HiFi speakers wants to be FRFR, linear, whatever. Do they all sound the same? If your answer is "yes", check your source ;)

 

There is no perfect linearity in speakers, still less when it comes to high efficiency and high level. Additionally, there are differences in impule behaviour, distortion, angle dependent disipation..... so some things, the biggest EQ canot correct.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had a Mission1 cab...Midrangey, no bottom...lasted 2 minutes ..the tone was so bad..Not nearly as rich and full as it sounded through my studio monitors.. I 'd hate to say it, but the Alto ts210 and 212 SMOKED the mission 1..I hear the Mission 2 cab (2x12) is awesome, but to be honest, the Gemini1 sounded so uninspiring..I thought it was broken, took it to a tech, nope, working fine.  I played through a Freidman ASM 12.. Now you're talking... $900 to start and VERY heavy.

  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just on treble beaming - this really relates to the physics of sound. Bass is omni-directional. Treble in much more directional. If you have a diaphragm moving on an axis (forward and back) that is the direction the higher frequencies will travel. The flare on a horn is an attempt to improve dispersion. Guitar cabs (eg quadboxes) beam 10kHz quite well if you get right in front of them.

 

This same sort of phenomenon also applies to radio waves - long wavelengths (eg AM radio) diffract well around hills and buildings, short wavelengths (eg UHF TV) need line of sight for good reception.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SteinweinerMkIV said:

Had a Mission1 cab...Midrangey, no bottom...lasted 2 minutes ..the tone was so bad..Not nearly as rich and full as it sounded through my studio monitors.. I 'd hate to say it, but the Alto ts210 and 212 SMOKED the mission 1..I hear the Mission 2 cab (2x12) is awesome, but to be honest, the Gemini1 sounded so uninspiring..I thought it was broken, took it to a tech, nope, working fine.  I played through a Freidman ASM 12.. Now you're talking... $900 to start and VERY heavy.

  

 

So the Friedman ASM12 is another option. You find it really good?  Do you use one or two? And thoughts from those who use two in stereo?

 

(And yep I'm waiting for many of you to post reviews of the Line 6 Power Cab when they arrive this week but for some reason I feel like it will be too plasticky with too many electronics and choices. For what I'm looking for that's a bug not a feature). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't own the asm-12, I just played through it...felt that it had the closest to feeling like and responding like a guitar cab (although FRFR)..Heavy!!  and it was almost $1K..(I bought the Mission 1 @ GC for $600....returned it) Now I just go through my studio monitors @ home for recording and playing at lower volumes..(use a Boogie MKIV $ recto 4x12 for live)

Not sure about the new Line 6 Power cab or whatever, but they're pricey!! 

Alto TS210 are surprisngly pretty good and realtively inspiring to play through.. the 212 gets a little boomy  for my tastes, but still really good.., and I haven't tried the Headrush, but man, thats' a lot of bang for the buck.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW- I have the Alto TS212 and I just received the powercab. The TS212 with IR impulses was passable, but there was always something lacking with clean tones, so I went back to my Tube set up. I just received the Powercab 112+ and I have to say it's a different beast altogether. Some people won't like it. The amp in room thing is accurate. I prefer the speaker models to the IR options. (I have my own Ownhammer impulses as well as the included ones). It definitely sounds more realistic than I have ever been able to get it to be. The TS212 is a great speaker for the price, but I will be using the PC going forward. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I probably won't live to see it but am looking forward to a future with nanotech speakers that can actually physically reconfigure themselves into a Celestion Alnico Blue, Black Shadow, Eminence, Jensen, or whatever you dial up on your modeler. That is if guitar playing even sticks around for that long  :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2018 at 11:36 AM, nathan217 said:

FWIW- I have the Alto TS212 and I just received the powercab. The TS212 with IR impulses was passable, but there was always something lacking with clean tones, so I went back to my Tube set up. I just received the Powercab 112+ and I have to say it's a different beast altogether. Some people won't like it. The amp in room thing is accurate. I prefer the speaker models to the IR options. (I have my own Ownhammer impulses as well as the included ones). It definitely sounds more realistic than I have ever been able to get it to be. The TS212 is a great speaker for the price, but I will be using the PC going forward. 

 

I have a PC+ coming in and can't wait to AB the PC speaker model with mic model from the PC XLR out to a pure IR of a similar cab.

 

Might just XLR from PCab right back into Helix and setup some AB routing snapshots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×