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lawrence_Arps

US retail return laws actually a negative for music

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Just an observation and comment....not trying to start a war here...

 

Observing behaviour on this and several other fora I find myseld gobsmacked at the way US buyers use the return laws.  Time and time again I see people actually decide in advance that they are going to buy something, take it home and then probably return it.

 

In the real world (thats sarcasm and I mean outside of the US) you do your research and you expect to spend time after your purchase learning your new device and adjusting your preconceptions etc.  In the States its like everybody expects instant gratification .  The result must be detrimental to the businesses that supply musical equipment.  Here in New Zealand you can return only if if the device can be proven to be not fit for purpose.  Some retailers will traet regular custonmers well in this area as well.  In general however, we have to do our research and work with our purchases.  In this century  cant remember ever buying something before having read the owners manual from beginning to end and reading dozens (if not hundreds of user reviews), yet clearly many US buyers of relatively high end gear buy without any idea of how the device works, what the capabilities are, how its operated etc.

Maybe this is true in other countries but US buyers dominate the Fora..?

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On the plus side: there is a huge market for refurbished gear. I'll buy a referb from a reputable supplier in a heartbeat.

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I suspect some of the return policies may hurt vendors, but what you might not realize is they can also benefit considerably from it.

 

As you may know retail prices on musical gear are fixed and determined by the vendor.  Occasionally vendors will offer discounts through retail outlets, but other than the the street price is consistent among all authorized outlets if they want to keep their retail relationship with vendors intact.  Line 6 is no different in this regard.  This is why a Helix purchased from Sweetwater is listed at the same price as one from Guitar Center or any other authorized outlet.  A Helix floor is $1499.99 through any authorized outlet...unless...it's a returned item and sold as refurbished.  Then they can discount it and gain an advantage over their competitors.  I've purchased two Helix floor units, both of which were returned and I got a discount on both, and both were sold within days of being made available to the public.  The discounts aren't enormous, but they aren't insignificant either when your only alternative is full street price.

 

I do agree, however that the consumers in America, particularly younger consumers, tend to not bother doing any kind of due diligence on purchases in many cases because they're enamored with what they've seen on YouTube.  Consequently they jump into it without getting any familiarity with what they're getting into, and suddenly are surprised when they find out that as simple as it might be, it's simple in comparison to other modeling devices...but it's still a modeler and the complexity is still there and the will have to do some actual study and learning to get to the level they can do what they saw in those YouTube videos.  I know, because we see evidence of it almost every day in this forum.  They can't be bothered to even read the manual that comes with it and then complain when they can't get it to do what they want it to do.  Nor can they apparently be bothered to search YouTube videos for instructional videos on how to do things with the Helix.

 

But I don't mind if they want to return it.  That's just a better price for those of us that have done our homework and know how to use it....

 

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To be fair false advertising is something that we in The States use to go after, and penalize. Now that is a rarity, because marketing these days, advertisements can basically lie through their teeth, and be somewhat protected under the 1st amendment. For a developed nation, we have some of the worst consumer protection.

 

Which inevitably fuels that. 

 

Have you seen marketing in The States? How about commercials that target The States?

 

That said, I hardly ever make purchases without due research.

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Once upon a time, if you wanted gear, you went to a brick and mortar store, tried it out, questioned a knowledgeable sales person, paid your money and took it home. If it turned out to be defective, you could return it, otherwise it was yours. We were careful how we spent our hard earned money.

 

Then came the internet. On line retailers could undersell the local music store because they didn't need to charge tax. What always ticked me off was that people would go to the local store, try out the gear, then buy it on line.

 

Not happy with the boon they'd been given, and seemingly oblivious to the damage they were doing, the on line stores started offering no questions asked returns. The volume they were doing made it possible to work with the lower margins that resulted from the returns.

 

The local stores are mostly gone, and those that survive, even the once mighty Guitar Center, are pitiful shells of their former selves. There are no longer any knowledgeable sales people, just teenagers who (most of them)  couldn't care less about you or the gear they're selling you.

 

I still do my due diligence before I buy, and if, miraculously, I can find the item I want at a real store where I can try it out, that's where I buy it.

 

Here in Colorado, if you buy on line and don't pay tax you're required by law to declare it on your taxes and pay the tax. Most don't, but I do.

 

So, when I buy something on line sight unseen, and decide to return it, I don't feel bad about it at all. The on line retailers made their beds, the bedbugs are their just reward.

 

That said, I buy primarily from Sweetwater*. Their sales folks may not know everything about everything they sell, but they do get basic training, and if you ask something they can't answer, they'll find out and get back to you, and they rarely hassle over returns, unless there's obvious damage.

 

If the future of music retail is on line, we could do worse, but those who take unfair advantage are still turds....at LEAST do your homework!

 

*I tempt the wrath of the forum mods because the business NEEDS a model of how it SHOULD be done, and those who provide that model should be acknowledged! 

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In the real world (thats sarcasm and I mean outside of the US) you do your research and you expect to spend time after your purchase learning your new device and adjusting your preconceptions etc.  In the States its like everybody expects instant gratification 

 

Yea living in the US, being a major global power and all with the highest GDP in many things and living in the best Country on Earth, it really put's a damper on us being ridiculed and then paying much attention to it. As I acknowledge your comment as being wrong compared to other young adults all over the world, I just didn't want you to feel left out. ; )

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This is kind of hillarious. Among talk of vendors is just how scary the return laws in europe for example are. People could return anything for any reason and if you didn't like that, you couldn't sell there. This was absolute murder on really small boutique mic and mic preamp builders. In fact I think I heard this exact talk from Line 6 guys at NAMM 2007. It seems crazy that the world has flipped upside down and now the US has the most liberal return policies?

 

Its one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't hings

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12 hours ago, spikey said:

Yea living in the US, being a major global power and all with the highest GDP in many things and living in the best Country on Earth

 

I hope this doesn't get me banned... but I'd like to try and politely point out that most people that don't live in the USA find a comment like this very offensive, arrogant and ignorant in the purest sense of the word. It's not based on jealously, it's because they live in great countries as well :) 

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Speaking as someone who worked for Guitar Center once upon a time, I can tell you that the return policy is a huge selling point. The goal is to get people to buy the gear and take it home and for a lot of people, feeling like they will be stuck with it if they don't like it means they don't want to buy it at all. If I tell them, "You know, I think you will absolutely love this, but if you don't, you can just bring it back," people are way more likely to take what I am selling. So yes, there are some people that absolutely abuse the policy, but on the whole it's actually great for retailers. Shoot, I probably wouldn't buy anything online if there wasn't a chance to return it. Especially guitars. Companies like Sweetwater couldn't stay in business if they didn't allow returns. We all know how picky guitarists are about their instruments. It also means that the Guitar Centers of the world with many locations can bring in a guitar from another store and the customer isn't stuck with it if it comes in scratched or otherwise not to their liking.

 

I should also point out that I'm not aware of any specific laws requiring retailers to take returns. It's set by the individual retailer. Some places have really long policies (like a year or more), some have really short ones or no return policy at all. A lot of the small shops don't allow returns and that's a big part of the reason why big stores like Guitar Center could thrive. Customers feel better knowing they aren't stuck. Basically, retailers wouldn't do it if they didn't think it helps them, and, speaking from experience, it absolutely helps them.

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12 hours ago, rd2rk said:

What always ticked me off was that people would go to the local store, try out the gear, then buy it on line.

THIS IS THE WORST. A friend of mine used to say "People know the price of everything but the value of nothing." I value that a retailer chooses to stock something I'm interested in and try to buy it if I can. I think "showrooming" is very dishonest to brick and mortar stores. I worked 10 years in bike retail and saw it a lot.

 

I don't see the correlation though of how the return laws affect music negatively. For as many people that buy something while fully intending on returning it how many more throngs of people take a chance on a piece of equipment that they wouldn't if they couldn't return it and then end up keeping it because it's good gear? I think the generous return laws existing is more of a proof that those take a chance people outnumber the return policy abusers.  Return policies are just a numbers decision, as it should be.

 

18 hours ago, lawrence_Arps said:

....having read the owners manual from beginning to end and reading dozens (if not hundreds of user reviews)....

Think about all the time you could save sparing yourself from second hand accounts and visualizing the experience of your new gear. As personal as gear is what's better than a penalty-free trial of gear in your own living room showroom where you determine the pace of figuring stuff out?

 

Also consider that generous returns mean gear manufacturers are beholden to make better, more intuitive, user experience centered products that also need to have depth so someone gets the impression its worth keeping. No more "gotcha" gear that is all marketing and no real substance.

 

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13 hours ago, spikey said:

 

Yea living in the US, being a major global power and all with the highest GDP in many things and living in the best Country on Earth, it really put's a damper on us being ridiculed and then paying much attention to it. As I acknowledge your comment as being wrong compared to other young adults all over the world, I just didn't want you to feel left out. ; )

 

I think what spikey was getting at here was that the "entitlement mentality" and urge to "instant gratification" among modern youth is not purely an American thing. As for his seemingly arrogant nationalist sentiment, I'd hope that it was more by way of a possible explanation for the phenomenon.........

 

As an aside, this whole thing is veering dangerously close to the kind of political BS that we don't need on this forum!

 

1 hour ago, njglover said:

I should also point out that I'm not aware of any specific laws requiring retailers to take returns.

 

I always just assumed that somewhere there was a law about defective merchandise, but that beyond that, returns policies were pretty much at the seller's discretion. But if you look at the returns policies of the biggest retailers today, it's pretty obvious that liberal returns policies are more of a positive than a negative.

 

1 hour ago, njglover said:

Speaking as someone who worked for Guitar Center once upon a time, I can tell you that the return policy is a huge selling point.

 

I worked at GC in SF in the early 80's, and as I remember it, while GC was always willing to do a trade up, simple returns for refund were not always as easy as they are today. They also sold a lot more cheap crap than they do today. Anybody remember the "Stone" guitars? They weren't actually made out of stone, but they might've played better if they were!:)

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1 hour ago, klangmaler said:

 

 

2 hours ago, njglover said:

Speaking as someone who worked for Guitar Center once upon a time, I can tell you that the return policy is a huge selling point. The goal is to get people to buy the gear and take it home and for a lot of people, feeling like they will be stuck with it if they don't like it means they don't want to buy it at all. If I tell them, "You know, I think you will absolutely love this, but if you don't, you can just bring it back," people are way more likely to take what I am selling. So yes, there are some people that absolutely abuse the policy, but on the whole it's actually great for retailers. Shoot, I probably wouldn't buy anything online if there wasn't a chance to return it. Especially guitars. Companies like Sweetwater couldn't stay in business if they didn't allow returns. We all know how picky guitarists are about their instruments. It also means that the Guitar Centers of the world with many locations can bring in a guitar from another store and the customer isn't stuck with it if it comes in scratched or otherwise not to their liking.

 

I should also point out that I'm not aware of any specific laws requiring retailers to take returns. It's set by the individual retailer. Some places have really long policies (like a year or more), some have really short ones or no return policy at all. A lot of the small shops don't allow returns and that's a big part of the reason why big stores like Guitar Center could thrive. Customers feel better knowing they aren't stuck. Basically, retailers wouldn't do it if they didn't think it helps them, and, speaking from experience, it absolutely helps them.

 

I'm the last guy on earth to defend the "Me, me" entitlement/instant gratification crowd, but it seems to me that rules like the ones quoted above stacks the deck pretty heavily in favor of the retailer...and while there are always exceptions to the rule (long live Sweetwater!), retailers as a species (at least in the US) have a long and glorious tradition of being wildly full of $hit....Anybody here ever buy a car? ;) But I digress...

 

During my music retail years, I worked for a guy who could sell snow to an Eskimo...not exactly an altar boy when there was a buck to be made. As long as the guy who's selling you something has a financial incentive to lie through his teeth, consumer protection laws will be necessary. They should be as balanced as possible, to keep everybody honest. Obviously, the retailers shouldn't be getting screwed left and right, either.

 

And while there will always be a small percentage of buyers who will abuse return policies and try to game the system, I still think that a bunch of happy, repeat customers are worth more $ in the long run, than whatever is lost on the occasional return. If somebody thinks they've been screwed, they're not coming back, no matter what actually transpired. Perception is everything, and a little good will goes a long way... especially with gear like this. You can research and read manuals all day long, but until you actually use something for a while, there's no real way to tell if it's gonna work for you. 

 

Just my 2 cents...

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Those that feel entitled tend to complain the loudest. I think what is read online is misleading as to what the true numbers are as I think most of us keep our head down and do our thing and ignore the lollipopbirds...As OBK said, "Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutions", so I really would not tend to label everyone in a country as permeating an observed behavior based on forum observations....100x more people use products that do not participate...jus' sayin' and just my opinion. All the best!

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I'll trade our liberal return policies for New Zealand's excellent health care system any day of the week :-)  Small consolation, we get to be paupered by a pre-existing condition or unexpected major illness but at least we have exactly the toaster we wanted :-)

 

Oh, and btw, on a less serious note, thanks for "Lord Of The Rings", "Once Were Warriors", and "Flight Of The Conchords" :-)

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Retailers choose their own return policies. If a company like Sweetwater decides to have a 30 day return policy no matter the condition, then they can choose to do so. There are some retailers that will only take returned items that are defective. That is their choice as well. 

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The liberal return policies of major USA retailers are not forced by laws. They are the policies chosen by each retailer to compete in the market.

 

Good brief article...

 

https://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/customer-returns-and-refund-laws-by-state.html

Returns and Refunds under Federal Law

Many retailers, as part of their business models, allow returns if customers change their minds or receive unwanted items as gifts. While many retailers have decided this makes for the best business practice, they aren't legally required to accept returns. Rather, retailers are required to accept returns only if the sold good is defective or if they otherwise break the sales contract.

 

 

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19 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

Small consolation, we get to be paupered by a pre-existing condition or unexpected major illness but at least we have exactly the toaster we wanted :-)

 

 

Lmao! My day job is in healthcare....I'm printing this one out and hanging it over my desk, lol.

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some interesting perspectives.  Hadn't thought about the online thing....

And yes...free healthcare, very few handguns, no military stuff,   and you're welcome for Lord Of The Rings etc.

...but we do live in one of the most geologically dangerous places in the world!

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"...but we do live in one of the most geologically dangerous places in the world!"--- Yes.

Ring of Fire of the Pacific Rim. Hope you're in Auckland or Sydney and not in Christ Church.

 

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38 minutes ago, lawrence_Arps said:

some interesting perspectives.  Hadn't thought about the online thing....

And yes...free healthcare, very few handguns, no military stuff,   and you're welcome for Lord Of The Rings etc.

...but we do live in one of the most geologically dangerous places in the world!

 

Not to mention the zombie problem......

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20 hours ago, psarkissian said:

"...but we do live in one of the most geologically dangerous places in the world!"--- Yes.

Ring of Fire of the Pacific Rim. Hope you're in Auckland or Sydney and not in Christ Church.

 

 

 

dang....Wellington.  Since the country woke up again with the 7.8 in Fiordland...then the 2 big Christchurch quakes..(actually over 20, 000 quakes in that series), then the massive 7.8 Kaikoura quake (another 20,200 aftershocks)...well its probably likely that Wellington will go next (thats a progression up through the country for those without a map).  We got beaten up by the Kaikoura quake -no buildings actually collapsed here but 60 have had to be demolished.

 

still...its a great country to live in - and I mean that sincerely.

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As noted above, return policy for dissatisfied customers isn't law.  But it is a great marketing ploy.  If somebody stands behind their product and offer satisfaction guarantee, they will typically sell more units.  I was seriously tempted to return my Helix when I first got it because I hadn't taken the time (ever) to fully buy in to the MFX mindset.  A week or two of fiddling and I've got a ton of pedals gathering dust.

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On 5/10/2018 at 11:30 AM, HonestOpinion said:

IOh, and btw, on a less serious note, thanks for "Lord Of The Rings", "Once Were Warriors", and "Flight Of The Conchords" :-)

 

And Mad Max and all the SciFi films etc etc etc..

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Someone mentioned Guitar Center...  their return policy was actually very lucrative for them at the time.  They did other things that are sinking them but...    

Picture this...  buy a Microphone at $1000.

Return it and get a $300 microphone.
Then they sell the original mic as a refurb for  $900

 

You get the mic you want for $300, they sell a mic twice totaling $1600.  (the 700 balance of the original return plus the new retail price).

 

Win WIn...

 

 

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On 5/10/2018 at 7:10 AM, codamedia said:

 

I hope this doesn't get me banned... but I'd like to try and politely point out that most people that don't live in the USA find a comment like this very offensive, arrogant and ignorant in the purest sense of the word. It's not based on jealously, it's because they live in great countries as well :) 

 

Great............The PC Police weigh in...

 

You can't be First, USA!, USA!,....but you CAN be next greatest if 'ya want .

You be for your Country...We'll be for ours .

                                                                                             OK ?

 

What the HECK did this have to do with Helix anyway?????

 

Shawn

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2 hours ago, lawrence_Arps said:

 

 

dang....Wellington.  Since the country woke up again with the 7.8 in Fiordland...then the 2 big Christchurch quakes..(actually over 20, 000 quakes in that series), then the massive 7.8 Kaikoura quake (another 20,200 aftershocks)...well its probably likely that Wellington will go next (thats a progression up through the country for those without a map).  We got beaten up by the Kaikoura quake -no buildings actually collapsed here but 60 have had to be demolished.

 

still...its a great country to live in - and I mean that sincerely.

 

This is a LOT of drivel.....not once have you even mentioned Helix ????

Are we here talking about f'ing movies and earthquakes in New Zealand ????

Zombies ?? REALLY !   Lord of the RINGS !!!

AND we're the ones who're not focused ????

Maybe you could do some research....... and find the Lounge to post stuff like this.......in..............

OR..maybe you could just take it all back ?  ;) !

 

Shawn

 

    

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26 minutes ago, Guitarkyller said:

 

Great............The PC Police weigh in...

 

You can't be First, USA!, USA!,....but you CAN be next greatest if 'ya want .

You be for your Country...We'll be for ours .

                                                                                             OK ?

 

What the HECK did this have to do with Helix anyway?????

 

Shawn

This too, is just a lot of drivel...

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I'm still cracking up. 5 years ago, the internet was filled with posts screaming "why can't the USA be like Europe and A/NZ with guaranteed return laws in effect, comeon america, stop being so third world"

 

When I saw this title, and first posted, I thought it meant our laws had changed and there were laws forcing companies to take returns now...Which would have still been hilariously ironic

 

But this, this seems to be epic fail

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well actually this started with the observation that many US people purchased Helix with the explicit intent of returning it soon.  Thats a topic worthy of a thread.  Some people made informative replies that educated me and gave me greater understanding, Thank you.

 

Now others made comments about my country and I responded.

Since this thread has now turned negative...let me point out:

 

Sydney is in Australia not New Zealand...

Mad Max was made in Australia not New Zealand.

 

in case there is doubt...Australia is 1000 miles from New Zealand.  There is no Bridge!

 

...and I love my Helix and a Powercab is on the way!  so there!

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14 hours ago, mileskb said:


Someone mentioned Guitar Center...  their return policy was actually very lucrative for them at the time.  They did other things that are sinking them but...    

Picture this...  buy a Microphone at $1000.

Return it and get a $300 microphone.
Then they sell the original mic as a refurb for  $900

 

You get the mic you want for $300, they sell a mic twice totaling $1600.  (the 700 balance of the original return plus the new retail price).

 

Win WIn...

 

 

Umm... That's not how it works. When you returned the $1000 microphone, you got your money back, correct? 

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On 5/10/2018 at 9:10 AM, codamedia said:

 

I hope this doesn't get me banned... but I'd like to try and politely point out that most people that don't live in the USA find a comment like this very offensive, arrogant and ignorant in the purest sense of the word. It's not based on jealously, it's because they live in great countries as well :) 

 

No, I don't think his post was based on "jealousy" however it was arrogant just as mine was in return. Why? If we in the US were as stupid as the OP wanted everyone to believe here (as in were too stupid to know what we buy) then it must have been true if no one disagreed. But it's not true, and you and he knows it. I just bluntly stated "why" I disagreed with "his" arrogant statements and being as proud of where I live as he is, defending my place of life. If that offends you, him or anyone else then get over it. I think (this is sarcasm and I mean inside of the US) that most Americans living here (me included) know that the return policies could be better for the consumer while offering protection for the retailer,  but his wasn't "just" about US return policies or laws. This was about how F'd up we Americans are in general. It just happened to be about music on a guitar processor forum. Sure everything could be improved upon here and everywhere else, but let me tell ya bother- Slamming the USA about everything and anything is offensive, tiring, and alive and well and his post is just another one. "Politely stated", this goes even deeper than that and I really don't care if I get banned here for defending my self or my country, even as FUBARed in things as it/I might be. Just for your edification, I'm glad they think they live in a great place. I'm glad that you and they can defend that. I have no issues with where people live or what they buy or return. I don't even care if you or he plays the guitar or not. I did NOT spew negatives against him or where he lives (just because I think my place is better is not a slam),  but don't think I'm gonna sit here and take this kinda running down the USA CRAP (and that's exactly what it was) from him, you, or anyone else without giving a mouth full in return. If this is offensive to you (in the purest sense of the word) then as Rhett Butler once said, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn". 

 

Quote

I think what spikey was getting at here was that the "entitlement mentality" and urge to "instant gratification" among modern youth is not purely an American thing. As for his seemingly arrogant nationalist sentiment, I'd hope that it was more by way of a possible explanation for the phenomenon.........

 

Thanks. Yep, entitlement is bad, as is instant gratification. It is an abhorrent practice that ruins the mind. And there is nothing wrong with anyone being proud of their flag, where they live or what they own. It's the idea that I'm "better" than a whole group/clan/Country of others that set me off, to which I responded in kind. Of course, I am not,  but don't try to give me that medicine unless taking it yourself first.  Being one of the recent "deplorable's" here has opened my eyes to the real difference between "constructive" criticism and downright bashing of others.

 

 

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18 hours ago, mileskb said:


Someone mentioned Guitar Center...  their return policy was actually very lucrative for them at the time.  They did other things that are sinking them but...    

Picture this...  buy a Microphone at $1000.

Return it and get a $300 microphone.
Then they sell the original mic as a refurb for  $900

 

You get the mic you want for $300, they sell a mic twice totaling $1600.  (the 700 balance of the original return plus the new retail price).

 

Win WIn...

 

 

 

Please tell me that you don't teach math for a living....;)

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It’s a foray into the weeds, but Spikey is on point here. The original post is clearly derogatory toward US consumers, painting us all as uninformed and over entitled. As an educated, informed and gainfully employed American consumer that works hard for what I have, I find that the OPs assumptions are ill informed. The current political climate puts such nonsense in vogue, but it’s still nonsense. 

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I don't happen to agree with the OP's thesis but it hardly seems worth getting wrapped around the axle about. This thread is reminding me yet again why I generally avoid religion, nationalism, and politics like the plague on the forum. Nope, I take that back, plague is often preferable to the results of those conversations. Every time I dip a toe in that pool it comes back burnt. Amazing how well people on this forum from all over the word and political spectrum can get along and respect each other's opinion when those types of topics are not being discussed. As to Guitarkyller's point I personally like it when someone injects the occasional moment of humor or distraction into what is otherwise a relentlessly technical forum. You need a bit of that, just like a joke opening up a speech or a bit of comedy in a horror film. However I can appreciate why he made the point he did in this particular topic given where it was headed, even if I do think there is room here and there for a non-Helix related aside.  All I can say is this forum generally operates a lot more harmoniously than the dialog between countries, religions, or political parties. This is overwhelmingly a polite and decent bunch of folks. I know this to be true because they tolerate me :-)

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Does everybody know that the toilet water actually spins the opposite way when you flush the thing in New Zealand ??

 

THIS IS A HELIX THREAD......learn to use the forum BEFORE you come on and talk smack. 

Bashing The U.S. ain't never gonna work for you here. "Turned Negative".....no, you started a bunch of negative crap that had NOTHING to do with L6 or Helix.

Maybe you could use a different forum for your personal/political views instead of a thread that's supposed to offer help, or to discuss  a specific piece of gear.

 

Shawn

 

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, HonestOpinion said:

I don't happen to agree with the OP's thesis but it hardly seems worth getting wrapped around the axle about.

 

I don't know about that. It looks kind of fun...

kCUjZvA.jpg

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20 hours ago, Guitarkyller said:

Are we here talking about f'ing movies and earthquakes in New Zealand ????

Zombies ?? REALLY !   Lord of the RINGS !!!

 

Attempting to inject a bit of humor into this totally off-topic (Helix, remember that gadget?) discussion, It was actually me, not our NZ friend, who mentioned zombies. Along with the Tolkien movies, Peter Jackson also wrote and directed the classic, all-time most totally over the top zombie/splatter movie "Brain Dead" (aka Dead Alive), which seems to be very much relative to the direction of this thread.....

  • Haha 2

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The reason people return Helix is that they cannot get it to do what they want. The usual reason for this is that they do not understand *how* to get it to do what they want. What happens next is the core issue, not nationality or elective returns policies adopted by retailers.

 

Human nature being what it is, there is a strong temptation to blame the tools rather than oneself. You could argue that it is more prevalent among younger people in affluent countries who have grown up with an acculturated sense of entitlement which predisposes them not to blame themselves when things go wrong. Whatever the case, the tendency to blame Helix when the root of the problem is user inexperience is unfortunate, and all too common.

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guys...one final OT post (apologies to those who are annoyed)

 

I never intended any particular insult of the US.  I love many aspects of US culture music , visual arts, comedy, technology ...I could go on.

 

When you live so far from the rest of the world (and actually get left off many maps whuch is a PITA) it is easy to feel that every online conversation is premised on the US..unless specifically stated.  There are a lot of Europeans on music forums which helps.
My original satement might not have raised as much ire if I had not tried to be clear that I was being "ironic" or poorly witty or whatever.

 

antway

Peace!

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