Jump to content

MIDI Snapshot problem H9


sdre9096
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hello All.

 

I have a couple H9's hooked up via MIDI and they are routed properly. If I load a preset with the helix the H9's follow suit when programed in the command center.

 

Problem I'm having is when I switch snapshots its changing the presets on my H9's! Totally random up and down. Driving me absolutely mental. What gives?  Am i doing something wrong? Is this a known bug? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By default, the Helix (and most other devices) will transmit & receive on all channels, and by default they will send and receive PC (program change) messages. This is something company's setup so items talk to each other "out of the box" with minimal setup. 

 

I suspect these default settings are colliding with your custom settings. If you do not want Program Changes to happen by default then you need to change one setting...   Global > MIDI/Tempo > set MIDI PC Tx to "Off

 

Now the only program changes that should ever occur will be items you program into command center.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In GLOBAL/MIDI turn OFF Midi PC Send.

 

Set each of your H9s to different midi channels. Do not use the Helix Base Channel. You can if you want, I just make it a habit not to.

 

EX - Helix Base Ch =1; H9#1 =Ch 2; H9#2 =Ch 3

 

Load your first Helix preset.

In Snapshot 1 set Instant Command 1 to H9#1 desired preset # and Ch 2

                             set Instant Command 2 to H9#2 desired preset # and Ch 3

SAVE PRESET

 

Switch to Snapshot 2

In Snapshot 2 set Instant Command 1 to H9#1 desired preset # and Ch 2

                             set Instant Command 2 to H9#2 desired preset # and Ch 3

SAVE PRESET

 

Repeat as necessary for all snapshots in that Helix preset

 

Repeat as necessary for all Helix presets

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

HOLY GUACAMOLE!

 

I did some further testing. My initial test used one Instant Command, and it worked with the VST I was testing it with. IN THEORY, if it worked with one IC, it should work with more than one.

 

NOT EXACTLY!

 

It sends FOUR ICs, not TWO!

What's even crazier, I set up four snapshots. The other four are blank (no ICs). If I start from another preset, it sends the correct set of PC/CH #s for the Snapshot that the preset is saved on. If I then select one of the unassigned snapshots, it sends the first assigned IC of the pair that was just sent! Subsequently selecting other unassigned snapshots send nothing, LIKE THEY"RE SUPPOSED TO DO!

 

If I then select one of the snapshots with assigned ICs, It sends:

the first IC of the previous snapshot

the correct second IC of the selected snapshot

the correct PAIR from the selected snapshot

!!!!!!!!!!

 

Again, selecting an unassigned snapshot sends the first of the ICs from the previously selected snapshot.

 

OK, so, bottom line, because it's sending the proper pair LAST, it accomplishes the intended goal. Two VSTs, set to different channels, wind up with the intended presets selected.

 

BUT, if you look at the actual midi being sent (in a monitor), it'll make you crazy!

 

So, go ahead and use the directions I laid out in my previous post. Your hardware should respond the same way as my VSTs.

 

However, it'll be interesting to hear what L6 support has to say.....

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They know about IC/Midi issues with Snapshots - it affects CC commands too.  It's a definite pain in the butt - my H9 patches drop out briefly when changing a snapshot when I just want the H9 to stay on the same algo - but will hopefully be sorted soon.

 

This from the 2.50 release notes:

 

Known Issues

- No CC Toggle MIDI data is sent when changing between different Snapshots that feature CC Toggle command assignments in Lit state

...

- In rare cases, PC messages are sent after Instant Commands on preset load, resulting in perceived delayed response by the device receiving MIDI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just got caught out by problems with snapshots and Switch based commands that I use to trigger OnSong which in turn triggers snapshot and fx switch changes - it had all worked perfectly until I swapped a couple of switch locations around then it went to hell with Helix associating what appeared to be random values; you fix it, save and then it changed again - seriously I watch in OnSong as it monitored the inbound values and pressing the same switch 3 times in a row Onsong recorded 3 different Note On events.  I had tried editing on device, in editor, deleting all commands, saving, recreating; nothing worked. I even had saved the patch with one set of switch positions, then reloaded it and the switch positions all changed on me! My essential one-patch for the 2 hour gig patch was corrupted and unusable.

 

In desperation as I have 2 gigs this weekend I looked at the .hlx file in an editor and noticed that the snapshots had overrides for the commands that I had never set; I copied the commands block from snapshot0 (correct values) over the equivalent section for the other snapshots, saved and reloaded the patch into Helix and there was sanity again.

 

If you are comfortable working with JSON format files then this can save a lot of time if the patch gets confused. Don't try if you are not as I doubt that an invalid JSON file will work too well.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, rd2rk said:

HOLY GUACAMOLE!

 

I did some further testing. My initial test used one Instant Command, and it worked with the VST I was testing it with. IN THEORY, if it worked with one IC, it should work with more than one.

 

NOT EXACTLY!

 

It sends FOUR ICs, not TWO!

What's even crazier, I set up four snapshots. The other four are blank (no ICs). If I start from another preset, it sends the correct set of PC/CH #s for the Snapshot that the preset is saved on. If I then select one of the unassigned snapshots, it sends the first assigned IC of the pair that was just sent! Subsequently selecting other unassigned snapshots send nothing, LIKE THEY"RE SUPPOSED TO DO!

 

If I then select one of the snapshots with assigned ICs, It sends:

the first IC of the previous snapshot

the correct second IC of the selected snapshot

the correct PAIR from the selected snapshot

!!!!!!!!!!

 

Again, selecting an unassigned snapshot sends the first of the ICs from the previously selected snapshot.

 

OK, so, bottom line, because it's sending the proper pair LAST, it accomplishes the intended goal. Two VSTs, set to different channels, wind up with the intended presets selected.

 

BUT, if you look at the actual midi being sent (in a monitor), it'll make you crazy!

 

So, go ahead and use the directions I laid out in my previous post. Your hardware should respond the same way as my VSTs.

 

However, it'll be interesting to hear what L6 support has to say.....

 

 

 

There is another setting that affects the Instant Commands and PCs. It's under Global Settings>MIDI/Tempo>Duplicate PC Send. If you have it set to on, all the Instant Command PCs will send when change snapshots regardless of what you have in the current snapshot. If you have it off, only those PCs that are different from the snapshot you're coming from will be sent.

 

I've been controlling two Strymon pedals with my Helix for a long time now, and I've never had any issues with this sort of stuff. It just has always worked correctly.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, phil_m said:

 

There is another setting that affects the Instant Commands and PCs. It's under Global Settings>MIDI/Tempo>Duplicate PC Send. If you have it set to on, all the Instant Command PCs will send when change snapshots regardless of what you have in the current snapshot. If you have it off, only those PCs that are different from the snapshot you're coming from will be sent.

 

I've been controlling two Strymon pedals with my Helix for a long time now, and I've never had any issues with this sort of stuff. It just has always worked correctly.

 

I've always left that setting OFF. The issues I described are different. As I noted, the correct PC#s are sent last, so that's why it works.

 

Sure would be nice if L6 would fix these problems. Snapshot midi is a nice feature, if it works logically and consistently. This AM when I turned on my Helix to test what you said, I noticed that today it's also sending the Bank MSB. Wasn't doing that last night!

 

And then there's the mysterious CC#61 that sends on every preset change...... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/24/2018 at 9:55 AM, rd2rk said:

 

I've always left that setting OFF. The issues I described are different. As I noted, the correct PC#s are sent last, so that's why it works.

 

Sure would be nice if L6 would fix these problems. Snapshot midi is a nice feature, if it works logically and consistently. This AM when I turned on my Helix to test what you said, I noticed that today it's also sending the Bank MSB. Wasn't doing that last night!

 

And then there's the mysterious CC#61 that sends on every preset change...... 

 

I was curious about this, so I ran the MIDI monitor in MIDI OX with my Helix connected, and I am seeing the CC61, val 0 being sent when changing presets. As far as the PC doubling, it only seems to be sending double PCs for those snapshots which I'm only changing one PC (one Instant Command). For the snapshots in which two Instant Commands change, I'm getting what's expected - two unique PC messages. I did try adding two more Instant Commands, and it seems that does lead to some doubling. It doesn't seem like those double messages are really hurting anything or making anything unexpected happen...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/26/2018 at 2:14 PM, phil_m said:

 

I was curious about this, so I ran the MIDI monitor in MIDI OX with my Helix connected, and I am seeing the CC61, val 0 being sent when changing presets. As far as the PC doubling, it only seems to be sending double PCs for those snapshots which I'm only changing one PC (one Instant Command). For the snapshots in which two Instant Commands change, I'm getting what's expected - two unique PC messages. I did try adding two more Instant Commands, and it seems that does lead to some doubling. It doesn't seem like those double messages are really hurting anything or making anything unexpected happen...

 

Here's the preset and MIDIOX screenshots I sent support, along with the text of the message I submitted to support.

 

In the screenshot MIDIOX TestSnapshots, the first four lines are sent when the preset loads. Each set of six lines after the first four are what's sent by each snapshot, 1 thru 4.

 

In screenshot MIDIOX TestSnapshots2, the first four lines are, again, what's sent when the preset loads. The next four lines are what's sent if you then select an unassigned (no IC assignments) snapshot (5 thru 8).

 

 Following that, each set of ten lines shows what is sent when you select another assigned (with ICs) snapshot (six lines), followed by an unassigned snapshot (four lines).

 

Since the last set of ICs sent is correct as intended, the snapshot midi works as expected. Selecting an unassigned snapshot, accidentally (stumblefoot) or because you thought it was real is not likely, but could happen, and results in baffling unintended consequences.

 

BTW - I've tested all of this using Reaper and a track with two sims, S-Gear and Amplitube 4, set to Ch 2 and Ch3 respectively. Helix really is sending this stuff.

-------------------------------------------------------

 

 

MIDIOX TestSnapshots2.png

 

Edited by rd2rk
Image removed to recover attachment allotment
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

Here's the preset and MIDIOX screenshots I sent support, along with the text of the message I submitted to support.

 

In the screenshot MIDIOX TestSnapshots, the first four lines are sent when the preset loads. Each set of six lines after the first four are what's sent by each snapshot, 1 thru 4.

 

In screenshot MIDIOX TestSnapshots2, the first four lines are, again, what's sent when the preset loads. The next four lines are what's sent if you then select an unassigned (no IC assignments) snapshot (5 thru 8).

 

 Following that, each set of ten lines shows what is sent when you select another assigned (with ICs) snapshot (six lines), followed by an unassigned snapshot (four lines).

 

Since the last set of ICs sent is correct as intended, the snapshot midi works as expected. Selecting an unassigned snapshot, accidentally (stumblefoot) or because you thought it was real is not likely, but could happen, and results in baffling unintended consequences.

 

BTW - I've tested all of this using Reaper and a track with two sims, S-Gear and Amplitube 4, set to Ch 2 and Ch3 respectively. Helix really is sending this stuff.

-------------------------------------------------------

 

MIDIOX TestSnapshots.png

MIDIOX TestSnapshots2.png

Test SnapMidi.hlx

 

I'm definitely not getting the MSB messages when changing presets.

 

As far as the Instant Commands and snapshots one thing to clarify is that there's not really any that are unassigned. If you create an Instant Command in any snapshot, it will be the same for all the snapshots unless you go change it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, if I set an Instant Command in ONE snapshot, it's the same in ALL snapshots? I can't, say, send an IC in Snapshot 1, but NOT in any others? Or a DIFFERENT (or NO) IC in another Snapshot? How do you get your H9s to change their presets to accommodate different snapshots? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AH! If you CLEAR (set to NONE) the IC in the unused Snapshot, it CLEARS ALL the ICs in ALL the Snapshots. To avoid that, I need to set the (in this case) PROGRAM parameter to OFF! Also, setting ALL of the Snapshots BEFORE saving the preset preserves the desired settings all across?

 

That still doesn't solve the problem of each Snapshot first sending the first IC of the previous Snapshot before sending the correct ICs for that Snapshot, or the selection of UNUSED (program parameter OFF in this case) sending the first IC of the previous snapshot.

 

BUT....TODAY it's no longer sending the MSB=0. Another mystery!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...