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Thenizze

heavy metal without amp preset

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Question: HOw do you guys play all this amp, preamp, cabinet presets with a real amp? Can't figure it out. Do you run with a mixer or?

Example: I practise and play on stage with a Blackstar ID260. Got everything turned down to the NO effect channel. Connect my Helix with the input of the amp.

Now, all preset models in the Helix with an amp, or preamp sound horrible. Only thing to do is get rid of this stuff. I don't want to use the 4cm because of plug and play gigs.

How do I get this really heavy sound?

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Apparently your amp doesn't have an effects loop which makes it potentially tricky to use with the modelling on the Helix, and you couldn't use 4CM even if you wanted to. The best I can suggest is to go in to the cleanest channel you have with no effects on, gain down as low as possible, volume up to compensate. On the Helix you would ideally just want a Preamp block. It sounds like you're close to that already, which might mean that this amp is not a great match for the Helix.

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1 hour ago, Thenizze said:

Question: HOw do you guys play all this amp, preamp, cabinet presets with a real amp? Can't figure it out. Do you run with a mixer or?

Example: I practise and play on stage with a Blackstar ID260. Got everything turned down to the NO effect channel. Connect my Helix with the input of the amp.

Now, all preset models in the Helix with an amp, or preamp sound horrible. Only thing to do is get rid of this stuff. I don't want to use the 4cm because of plug and play gigs.

How do I get this really heavy sound?

 

I was about to answer, then realized I addressed the same question you asked in another thread... so here's the abridged version: 

 

Without an FX loop to bypass the preamp, your'e fighting a losing battle... while technically feasible, modelers really just aren't designed to be used in that configuration. You might be able to get away with it for clean/ low gain tones... but if you're looking for substantially overdriven sounds, going straight into the front end of an amp will be a chore to get right at best, but more likely an unworkable mess that you'll never really be happy with. Time to look at other amplification options...

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12 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

I was about to answer, then realized I addressed the same question you asked in another thread... so here's the abridged version: 

 

Without an FX loop to bypass the preamp, your'e fighting a losing battle... while technically feasible, modelers really just aren't designed to be used in that configuration. You might be able to get away with it for clean/ low gain tones... but if you're looking for substantially overdriven sounds, going straight into the front end of an amp will be a chore to get right at best, and more likely than not, an unworkable mess that you'll never really be happy with. Time to look at other amplification options...

Yeah, that was me in the other question, slightly different :-)

So you advice the 4cm.? Than, all the features of this amp are useless. I don't care, got my Helix. But do you have some advice on what amp would do? I think could be something without all the effect etc.?

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The ID260 has a stereo 1/4" MP3/Line input that bypasses the front end completely. Get yourself a stereo to dual-mono cable or adapter, and connect the stereo 1/4" outputs from the helix the MP3/Line input. Make sure the volume is down on the helix when you power on because I'm guessing the Helix "Big Knob" will become your master volume control, then try to build some tones. I would start with "full" (not pre) amp models and no cabs and go from there. There is a possiblity since the ID260 is a sort of modeling amp that it has more full-range speakers and you might need a cab model in there to get it to sound normal.

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1 hour ago, Thenizze said:

Yeah, that was me in the other question, slightly different :-)

So you advice the 4cm.? Than, all the features of this amp are useless. I don't care, got my Helix. But do you have some advice on what amp would do? I think could be something without all the effect etc.?

 

Well you can't use the 4cm without an FX loop... so no matter what you do, you're going shopping. But no... personally I have no use for the 4cm. It has exactly one advantage: it allows you to get your basic tone from either your amp, or the models in Helix. That's it. But if you're searching for a way to bypass the preamp and have no intention of using it  for your primary sound, then the 4cm is 100% useless to you... it'll only make you spend more money on cables, and take you longer to set up and tear down at a gig. 

 

I went FRFR....gave up "real" amps years ago at this point, and couldn't be happier. Not going back. 

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13 hours ago, kylotan said:

Apparently your amp doesn't have an effects loop which makes it potentially tricky to use with the modelling on the Helix, and you couldn't use 4CM even if you wanted to. The best I can suggest is to go in to the cleanest channel you have with no effects on, gain down as low as possible, volume up to compensate. On the Helix you would ideally just want a Preamp block. It sounds like you're close to that already, which might mean that this amp is not a great match for the Helix.

I agree. Thinking about FRFR. But which one. The line6 112 plus powercab or the L2M active speaker.? It's just for the backline sound, which will be sent to the PA. 

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11 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

Well you can't use the 4cm without an FX loop... so no matter what you do, you're going shopping. But no... personally I have no use for the 4cm. It has exactly one advantage: it allows you to get your basic tone from either your amp, or the models in Helix. That's it. But if you're searching for a way to bypass the preamp and have no intention of using it  for your primary sound, then the 4cm is 100% useless to you... it'll only make you spend more money on cables, and take you longer to set up and tear down at a gig. 

 

I went FRFR....gave up "real" amps years ago at this point, and couldn't be happier. Not going back. 

 

Same question to you:  I agree. Thinking about FRFR. But which one. The line6 112 plus powercab or the L2M active speaker.? It's just for the backline sound, which will be sent to the PA. 

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You can eventually take a simple active speaker to have a cheaper solution....

I've bought a yamaha DBR10 that brings a good sound. There are less expensive speakers (Alto for exemple) which seem to be good too !!!

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14 hours ago, gunpointmetal said:

The ID260 has a stereo 1/4" MP3/Line input that bypasses the front end completely. Get yourself a stereo to dual-mono cable or adapter, and connect the stereo 1/4" outputs from the helix the MP3/Line input. Make sure the volume is down on the helix when you power on because I'm guessing the Helix "Big Knob" will become your master volume control, then try to build some tones. I would start with "full" (not pre) amp models and no cabs and go from there. There is a possiblity since the ID260 is a sort of modeling amp that it has more full-range speakers and you might need a cab model in there to get it to sound normal.

 

This sounds like a good suggestion, and I'd recommend the original poster gives this a go before trading the amp in!

 

Personally I'd recommend against FRFR approaches for metal musicians - a lot of the time you're going to find yourself on stage with a need to share backline and specifically to use a cab that's already miked up. I have a rack-mount power amp now and that gives me a relatively uncoloured output from the Helix but works well with any cab I find myself at.

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5 hours ago, Thenizze said:

 

Same question to you:  I agree. Thinking about FRFR. But which one. The line6 112 plus powercab or the L2M active speaker.? It's just for the backline sound, which will be sent to the PA. 

 

Haven't tried the Powercab... I've seen some complaints over on that forum that they might be a little anemic in the volume department, but I suppose that's relative... but if you're determined to rattle windows in the next zip code, it might not be for you. I've been using an L2T for 4 or 5 years now...I use it as a floor monitor, plenty of headroom. 

 

It'll boil down to whether or not you care about the PC's onboard cab modeling, and the ever elusive (and oft whined about ;) ) "amp in the room" thing that it allegedly provides. If that doesn't matter to you, I'd get something with a little more horsepower.... better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

 

There are a bunch of options out there now... some quite reasonably priced, and some comical. The Alto's are a favorite, the new Headrush powered cab (more or less a rebranded Alto), the Mission Gemini stuff, etc. etc. You should be able to get good results with any of them, really...but whatever you pick will take some getting used to, and require reworking your patches (a lot)...FRFR is a very different animal, no matter what logo is stamped on the front.

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3 hours ago, kylotan said:

 

This sounds like a good suggestion, and I'd recommend the original poster gives this a go before trading the amp in!

 

Personally I'd recommend against FRFR approaches for metal musicians - a lot of the time you're going to find yourself on stage with a need to share backline and specifically to use a cab that's already miked up. I have a rack-mount power amp now and that gives me a relatively uncoloured output from the Helix but works well with any cab I find myself at.

Playing metal with FRFR for the last 4-5 years I can say that it's rarely (actually never, that I've experienced) a problem. My "FOH" Helix patches sound good enough through a shared backline (at least as good as me bringing my head and hooking it up to an unknown cab with very little set-up time, anyways) and usually, I'll just set my monitor on top of the backline cab and use have my sound on stage, anyways. That's one of the nice things about having that portable and easy-to-set-up rigs. I'm not getting in anyone's way bypassing the backline and taking the XLR out of the mic'ed cab and plugging it into my Helix never really causes an issue for anyone. The sound guy is gonna have to EQ that channel for whatever head/rig is being plugged into the backline cab for each band anyways (unless that person isn't a very good soundguy, and then it matters even less). 

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