Nylon String IR?

[kenmac1]

Ok, I know for some reason Line 6 have not been able to produce a decent nylon string sound for the JTV guitars as yet, (Fender and Roland did), so I am curious if anyone has written or discovered a decent IR for a nylon string guitar that can be either programmed into the JTV or maybe into either the Helix / HD500X systems.
The sort of tone I am looking for is similar to the one used by Steve Stevens on the Vince Neil disc when he was strumming the nylon string, so I am not so much chasing a good nylon string sound for individual notes / leads parts, more the chunky, but not to bright attack of the nylon string for playing a fairly percussive latin style of rhythm parts live.  In the studio I used an actual nylon string, layered with a steel string acoustic on opposite sides of the track..  Obviously live I would rather not have to change instruments when the JTV is capable of doing just about anything.

What is out there groovers?
Cheers.

[barkerm]

I'm thinking they just need to see a lot of interest in exactly that! So, ME TOO! Here's the fun part - wouldn't it be great (I have a JTV89F . . . BLOOD RED!)) Line 6 advertisement for a guy with a shredder guitar to sound like he's playing a nylon, kinda classical-like?! I like doing things like that to see who in the audience is paying attention! Well, that, and, I don't have to change guitars every two or three songs. Great comment - not sure how Fender gets out in front of Line 6 in that arena. 

[Triryche]

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/ideas/search?templateId=0&query=nylon

 

 

[brue58ski]

So 3 Sigma has some classical guitar IR's. I've tried their steel string acoustic IR's and they do make the JTV acoustics better but not what I was looking for. Unfortunately in the video example they provide in the website, the guy is using a nylon string guitar so ya can't tell what it will do to the JTV's acoustics. They are only $10 so it would be fairly cheap to try one but based on my experience with their steel string acoustic IRs, don't expect miracles. Here's their website.

 

https://www.3sigmaaudio.com/items/category/classical-guitars/

[kenmac1]

16 hours ago, barkerm said:

I'm thinking they just need to see a lot of interest in exactly that! So, ME TOO! Here's the fun part - wouldn't it be great (I have a JTV89F . . . BLOOD RED!)) Line 6 advertisement for a guy with a shredder guitar to sound like he's playing a nylon, kinda classical-like?! I like doing things like that to see who in the audience is paying attention! Well, that, and, I don't have to change guitars every two or three songs. Great comment - not sure how Fender gets out in front of Line 6 in that arena. 

I also have an 89F in blood red and a 69, (Helix, DT50, an old XT Live Bass Pod and other Line 6 toys) and I have songs where i go into Sitar mode, as well as six and 12 string acoustic sounds, then crossover back and forth to harder driven electric sounds, or split guitar sounds (Harmony mags on one side, and a different guitar on the other with different amp settings inside of the Helix).  The possibilities are almost endless, but the distinct lack of a decent nylon sound is in my view an oversight of mammoth proportions, because that sound as an added texture on recordings is invaluable.  It is like adding a layer of acoustic under a hard rock recording, most people never do it, and just layer in the high gain, but a nice lunch acoustic in the mix adds so much harmonic richness to the tapestry..  Mind you, the fact that Line 6 dropped the integrating abilities previously afforded to the Dream Rig HD series with the JTV and DT amps, when they brought in the Helix is also a poorly conceived move, because for old schoolers like myself, regardless of how convincing a digital sound into an FRFR rig might be, I still like having a valve rig behind me pushing out air.  
We might be somewhat placated by the fact that we have a million sounds at our disposal, and some of them are impressive as hell, but even a true convert still relishes plugging into our valve rigs with old school stomp boxes because as close as the sounds may be, I guess there is something primal about valves creating "that sound" the way we have always used them.

As for how Fender got ahead of Line 6, I think it was possibly more the work of Roland in this case.  Fender as far as their digital amps go are terrible at best, but the Roland models seem very convincing.  If Fender / Roland had made it so you could integrate their rigs with a good floor pod type idea and amp, I may have gone down that path, purely for the convenience of a nylon string sound, but sadly they did not take their designs in that direction, so Line 6 still have the edge.

[kenmac1]

10 hours ago, brue58ski said:

So 3 Sigma has some classical guitar IR's. I've tried their steel string acoustic IR's and they do make the JTV acoustics better but not what I was looking for. Unfortunately in the video example they provide in the website, the guy is using a nylon string guitar so ya can't tell what it will do to the JTV's acoustics. They are only $10 so it would be fairly cheap to try one but based on my experience with their steel string acoustic IRs, don't expect miracles. Here's their website.

 

https://www.3sigmaaudio.com/items/category/classical-guitars/

If you have already assessed the sound as not quite being there, then I will trust your judgement.  I was hoping someone would say, "Man this one is exactly what you are looking for..."  If it is close but not quite on the podium, well nobody ever remembers, or cares who came second.  

[brue58ski]

On 8/3/2018 at 8:04 PM, kenmac1 said:

If you have already assessed the sound as not quite being there, then I will trust your judgement.  I was hoping someone would say, "Man this one is exactly what you are looking for..."  If it is close but not quite on the podium, well nobody ever remembers, or cares who came second.  

 

Just so I'm clear, my assessment is based on what the steel string IR's sounded like. Not the Nylon string IR's. I haven't tried them.

[jakeman19]

Line 6 have not done anything in regards to nylon guitar modeling since the Variax acoustic guitar model before the JTV's came out. Not until people bark enough, using the above suggested ideascale link, your not able to IR anything into a JTV unless Line 6 releases something. So your out of luck I'm afraid. People have been asking to swap out current models with other guitars models and we've seen nothing to this point of this happening. There is also nothing you can do with IR's on Helix/POD HD500x that will change the modelling on the JTV in the fashion you're thinking. 

[avalon650]

Is there a Feature Request for this?  I actually assumed there was a Nylon model.

[cruisinon2]

 

47 minutes ago, avalon650 said:

Is there a Feature Request for this?  I actually assumed there was a Nylon model.

 

I don't think it's terribly likely that we'll see anything added to the existing Variax products...and a nylon string model was always a longshot anyway... don't think it's all that easy to get a steel string to mimic the sound of nylon. It's been requested on and off numerous times over the years, to no avail. Moreover, nothing at all has changed in Variax Land with regard to new/better models for years, now. The JTV's debuted 8 years ago, and the Standard and Shuriken have the same guts. In today's world, an 8 year old tech platform is ancient. Smart money says they're biding their time until they decide the next generation of Variax stuff (whatever it may be) is ready for public consumption.... which could be anytime between 5 minutes from now and Doomsday.  

[barkerm]

On 8/3/2018 at 10:56 PM, kenmac1 said:

I also have an 89F in blood red and a 69, (Helix, DT50, an old XT Live Bass Pod and other Line 6 toys) and I have songs where i go into Sitar mode, as well as six and 12 string acoustic sounds, then crossover back and forth to harder driven electric sounds, or split guitar sounds (Harmony mags on one side, and a different guitar on the other with different amp settings inside of the Helix).  The possibilities are almost endless, but the distinct lack of a decent nylon sound is in my view an oversight of mammoth proportions, because that sound as an added texture on recordings is invaluable.  It is like adding a layer of acoustic under a hard rock recording, most people never do it, and just layer in the high gain, but a nice lunch acoustic in the mix adds so much harmonic richness to the tapestry..  Mind you, the fact that Line 6 dropped the integrating abilities previously afforded to the Dream Rig HD series with the JTV and DT amps, when they brought in the Helix is also a poorly conceived move, because for old schoolers like myself, regardless of how convincing a digital sound into an FRFR rig might be, I still like having a valve rig behind me pushing out air.  
We might be somewhat placated by the fact that we have a million sounds at our disposal, and some of them are impressive as hell, but even a true convert still relishes plugging into our valve rigs with old school stomp boxes because as close as the sounds may be, I guess there is something primal about valves creating "that sound" the way we have always used them.

As for how Fender got ahead of Line 6, I think it was possibly more the work of Roland in this case.  Fender as far as their digital amps go are terrible at best, but the Roland models seem very convincing.  If Fender / Roland had made it so you could integrate their rigs with a good floor pod type idea and amp, I may have gone down that path, purely for the convenience of a nylon string sound, but sadly they did not take their designs in that direction, so Line 6 still have the edge.

 

Yeah. So, let's talk Dream Rig - who would really do that . . . Since we are dreaming (and this could go on FOREVER!) how about a Fender/Yamaha/Line6/Roland Collab! Ok. I'm going back to sleep now, and working on my next dream!  :D

 

[amsdenj]

My guess is that they’ve reached some modeling and technology limitations that are barriers to significantly improved Variax models. There’s also the experience from moving from the 1.x to 2.0 HD models. Some people preferred the old models and that create a lot of discussion that probably didn’t lead to increased sales. Its possible that the same thing could happen on the next “improvement”. 

 

But its also likely that Line6 has been consumed with other things including becoming part of the Yamaha Guitar Group, and the Ampeg acquisition. This is likely a big deal.

 

Let’s hope there’s room for Variax improvements in the future. I’ve made a big investment in my JTV-69S with new pickups and new neck. But I don’t feel bad about that, new models or not since its easily my go-to gigging guitar. 

[psarkissian]

"... they’ve reached some modeling and technology limitations that are barriers to significantly improved Variax models. "---

Memory capacity on the board is more likely. A good reason to make use of Workbench HD.

 

As far as Impulse Response goes, I'm not certain how much memory is required for that. And Helix would be the product

to do Impulse Response. Maybe between Workbench HD and Helix there might be something there. Haven't tried that yet.

 

And there's always submitting an idea in Idea Scale.

 

[Rewolf48]

The memory capacity issue wouldn't be a problem if they allowed users to create a custom firmware including a user selected subset from a wider range of guitar models - using workbench. I don't need all of the existing guitar options but I would like an expanded range of for example pickups and some body types. If I could swap out what I don't want for some extras that I do use then it would extend the life of the platform substantially.

 

But so would Next Gen JTV upgrade boards - to replace the existing ones without having to replace the core guitar or the controls.

[jakeman19]

On August 28, 2018 at 10:30 PM, soundog said:

[Deleted original reply because it wasn't all that helpful, had almost no relevance to the original post regarding nylon string modeling on a Variax, was not really helpful and, in actuality, I would have deleted the whole danged thing but apparently this forum doesn't allow you to delete your post. If it does, please tell me how. Thank you for your understanding.]

To Delete, under your post when you have logged in of course, it shows "Quote Edit Options" under Options pull down menu chose Delete. 

[soundog]

Thank you! 

[jakeman19]

4 hours ago, soundog said:

Thank you! 

No problem sounddog 

 

Jd

 

[kenmac1]

Finally got around to re-reading these responses, yes it has been a while since I logged in.  The idea about being able to pick and choose between models, and swap them in and out to me seems like the most logical /workable solution, but I am still at the mercy of Line 6 really, because unless their geniuses provide the core sound of a nylon string to begin with, someone like me who is still very much an old school player with less than zero programming skills at all, would never be able to create that sound myself.    I had someone else program all my sounds as I have neither the patience or understanding when it comes to the Helix.  Yep I took my main old valve amp along, an A/B box and kept changing back and forth from my favourite amp, to the Helix rig, and he dialled in pretty well perfectly the tones I was getting from the amp.  (My main amp is not one that is modelled, but he was able to use the PRS clean and get very close to my clean, and a couple pedals to get very close to my crunch / gain tones).   I am impatient at the best of times, i want to be able to just plug in and play, not scroll through a hundred menus to create then balance out the sounds.  It was always so easy with old pedals and amps.

As rewolf stated, I'd also be happy to dump out some of the sounds I will never use, in order to get others in that I will use, and there are several I would happily remove to get a nylon string sound.  At the end of the day we all have certain sound we use in the studio, certain key tones we rely on live, and in my case as someone who writes and records, I need to be able to faithfully replicate the tones I recorded with, without having to change back and forth between instruments.

And Yes Barkerm, I'm not against the idea of mixing gear to get the sounds I need, so if the only way to achieve the perfect blend of sounds I require on stage were to combine various items, then...  as long as it does not mean changing instruments mid song.  I used to have a stand on stage that held my acoustic at playing height, and would swing my electric behind my back, before the Variax gear became available, (I grew up watching videos of bands like Bon Jovi, Vandenberg..., as soon as I saw those acoustic stands I ordered one)   However there are definite limitations to that sort of thing, especially if you are self mixing the band from on stage.  I'm still not impressed that L6 decided not to keep the Dream Rig happening with the Helix.   The Bogner series valve amps are brilliant, the JTV guitars (in spite of lacking a Nylon string sound), are fantastic for 95% of the stuff I write / play, and the Helix itself, is great, but to me since you ideally need to drag a FRFR monitor system to a gig anyhow, why not just make it work with the Bogners again?  It is not like we are really carrying any less if we are now dragging an FRFR system along to monitor our sounds.