Mono to FOH, Stereo to IEM

[chemengin]

I am going mono out of the left output into our FOH. The FOH mixer connects to our individual Aviom in-ear monitoring systems via ethernet cable. I am connecting my IEM headphones into the headphone out of the Aviom (to hear the rest of the band). This, of course, eliminates any stereo effect from the Helix. However, I understand that the "phones" output is in stereo. Is it possible to connect the "phones" output and the Aviom headphone output into a small personal mixer such that I will get the FOH mix (in mono) with my guitar output in stereo?

 

If this is possible, will I need a stereo mixer? If so, will I need to buy some type of Y adapter that takes the "phones" output and splits it into left and right inputs into the stereo mixer?

 

Are there any better ways of doing this?

 

Thank you.

[waymda]

I know nothing about Aviom, but I do something similar using a cheap unit called a POSSE to blend, headphone out from Helix, foldback send from FoH (Vox only) and ambient from the onstand unit of the POSSE.

 

If you got a stereo mixer with stereo 1/4 inch inputs you could use a single cable, I use a stereo Y cable (insert) rather than an adaptor for simplicity.  Like so https://www.swamp.net.au/insert-cable

[DunedinDragon]

You could possibly use a headphone mixer and a couple of 1/4" TRS cables to get what you want.  Personally I think you might be better off putting more focus on how your efforts are mixing with everyone else in the band than concerning yourself so much with something that doesn't really matter to the audience, the rest of the band, or anyone other than you.

 

[chemengin]

4 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

You could possibly use a headphone mixer and a couple of 1/4" TRS cables to get what you want.  Personally I think you might be better off putting more focus on how your efforts are mixing with everyone else in the band than concerning yourself so much with something that doesn't really matter to the audience, the rest of the band, or anyone other than you.

  

Not sure where this attitude is coming from. We're an extremely cohesive band that have been playing together for years. Nothing about this is taking away from my "efforts" with everyone in the band. This is a Helix forum so clearly we here are interested in our individual instruments and looking for ways to improve.

[brue58ski]

5 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

You could possibly use a headphone mixer and a couple of 1/4" TRS cables to get what you want.  Personally I think you might be better off putting more focus on how your efforts are mixing with everyone else in the band than concerning yourself so much with something that doesn't really matter to the audience, the rest of the band, or anyone other than you.

 

 

I do get what he's trying to do. One frustration I'm sure many of us have dealt with is no being able to hear ourselves very well in a live situation. Isn't the guitar guy turning his amp up too loud an old cliche? I like to have myself a little bit louder than the rest of the band in my IEM's That way I can be sure that I am playing the right notes.

I can't focus on how my efforts are mixing with everyone else because I'm on stage. I'm not in the audience. Mixing from the stage is a bad idea if you don't have to. I'm not going to hear exactly what the audience hears. That would be what the audio engineer hears. It's up to the audio engineer to mix my efforts with everyone else. I just want to make my efforts as correct as I can make them so the audience gets the best performance I can give them. That's what does matter to the audience, the rest of the band and anyone else other than me. That's why I need to make sure I can hear myself. AND it doesn't effect what the audience hears. The best of both worlds in my opinion. Just the way I do things and the poster as well apparently. But, ya know. Whatever works for you. That's what works for me in my particular situation.

[jws1982]

Doesn’t the aviom have stereo output to your in-ears?  If so, send both your mono signal and stereo signals to FOH, then monitor the stereo signal through your aviom.

 

Or, just send your stereo signal to FOH and let the sound guy sort it out. :)

[chemengin]

28 minutes ago, brue58ski said:

 

I do get what he's trying to do. One frustration I'm sure many of us have dealt with is no being able to hear ourselves very well in a live situation. Isn't the guitar guy turning his amp up too loud an old cliche? I like to have myself a little bit louder than the rest of the band in my IEM's That way I can be sure that I am playing the right notes.

I can't focus on how my efforts are mixing with everyone else because I'm on stage. I'm not in the audience. Mixing from the stage is a bad idea if you don't have to. I'm not going to hear exactly what the audience hears. That would be what the audio engineer hears. It's up to the audio engineer to mix my efforts with everyone else. I just want to make my efforts as correct as I can make them so the audience gets the best performance I can give them. That's what does matter to the audience, the rest of the band and anyone else other than me. That's why I need to make sure I can hear myself. AND it doesn't effect what the audience hears. The best of both worlds in my opinion. Just the way I do things and the poster as well apparently. But, ya know. Whatever works for you. That's what works for me in my particular situation.

+1

 

Ideally we'd have our FOH mix our IEMs so we don't have to mix on stage, but many of us don't have that capability. So individually we mix the best we can on stage, and entrust the audio engineer/FOH to mix as best as possible for the audience.

[DunedinDragon]

1 hour ago, brue58ski said:

 

I do get what he's trying to do. One frustration I'm sure many of us have dealt with is no being able to hear ourselves very well in a live situation. Isn't the guitar guy turning his amp up too loud an old cliche? I like to have myself a little bit louder than the rest of the band in my IEM's That way I can be sure that I am playing the right notes.

I can't focus on how my efforts are mixing with everyone else because I'm on stage. I'm not in the audience. Mixing from the stage is a bad idea if you don't have to. I'm not going to hear exactly what the audience hears. That would be what the audio engineer hears. It's up to the audio engineer to mix my efforts with everyone else. I just want to make my efforts as correct as I can make them so the audience gets the best performance I can give them. That's what does matter to the audience, the rest of the band and anyone else other than me. That's why I need to make sure I can hear myself. AND it doesn't effect what the audience hears. The best of both worlds in my opinion. Just the way I do things and the poster as well apparently. But, ya know. Whatever works for you. That's what works for me in my particular situation.

 

Actually, that's what the Aviom system overcomes.  Everybody has their own small mixer that's fed from the main mixer and they can mix their own personalized mix to their IEMs however they want.

 

[brue58ski]

52 minutes ago, chemengin said:

+1

 

Ideally we'd have our FOH mix our IEMs so we don't have to mix on stage, but many of us don't have that capability. So individually we mix the best we can on stage, and entrust the audio engineer/FOH to mix as best as possible for the audience.

 

The thing we have (I don't know if it's Aviom but it's the same idea) allows us to do our own mix in our IEM's. It's very cool. We used to have something that you just got whatever the house mix was but luckily it also had an extra stereo input. I would plug my headphone output into that to do exactly what you want to do.

[HonestOpinion]

20 hours ago, chemengin said:

I am going mono out of the left output into our FOH. The FOH mixer connects to our individual Aviom in-ear monitoring systems via ethernet cable. I am connecting my IEM headphones into the headphone out of the Aviom (to hear the rest of the band). This, of course, eliminates any stereo effect from the Helix. However, I understand that the "phones" output is in stereo. Is it possible to connect the "phones" output and the Aviom headphone output into a small personal mixer such that I will get the FOH mix (in mono) with my guitar output in stereo?

 

If this is possible, will I need a stereo mixer? If so, will I need to buy some type of Y adapter that takes the "phones" output and splits it into left and right inputs into the stereo mixer?

 

Are there any better ways of doing this?

 

Thank you.

 

3 hours ago, jws1982 said:

Doesn’t the aviom have stereo output to your in-ears?  If so, send both your mono signal and stereo signals to FOH, then monitor the stereo signal through your aviom.

 

Or, just send your stereo signal to FOH and let the sound guy sort it out. :)

 

I don't use the Aviom but it doesn't look like it has a stereo input(s) that you could run into directly from the Helix. If you truly prefer a stereo mix in the IEMs then I think jws1982's suggestions are on the right track if your soundman doesn't mind you eating up two channels for the stereo sends or possibly three if you are also sending mono. He/she would then have to make sure that the Left & Right sends from the Helix's stereo signal are panned hard left & right and go out to the Aviom without going to the mains if he is using the mono send for mains (or that the panned stereo sends get summed in the mains without using a mono send from the Helix). Seems like a lot of contortions for the sound man who will have to be providing you a stereo monitor mix when everything else is in mono.

 

I do have a question though, what is your motivation here? Is this because you play better when you hear a stereo signal? I am always striving to get my guitar monitoring as close as possible to what people are hearing in the FOH. That way if it sounds good to me on stage, hopefully it sounds good out front as well. You are kind of doing the opposite where your mix on stage in stereo will be markedly different from the mono mix at the FOH. Is this just confusion about the term stereo because you can certainly get a mono mix in both earbuds in the IEMs from the Aviom? If I am getting a mono mix out front then that is what I would prefer to hear in my IEMs (dual mono if you will, mono mix in both ears).

[chemengin]

On 8/10/2018 at 11:11 AM, HonestOpinion said:

I do have a question though, what is your motivation here? Is this because you play better when you hear a stereo signal? I am always striving to get my guitar monitoring as close as possible to what people are hearing in the FOH. That way if it sounds good to me on stage, hopefully it sounds good out front as well. You are kind of doing the opposite where your mix on stage in stereo will be markedly different from the mono mix at the FOH. Is this just confusion about the term stereo because you can certainly get a mono mix in both earbuds in the IEMs from the Aviom? If I am getting a mono mix out front then that is what I would prefer to hear in my IEMs (dual mono if you will, mono mix in both ears).

My motivation is simply to hear the best possible tone out of the Helix, which for many of us, stereo delays/reverbs sound significantly different compared to mono. It's interesting to hear that some people here try to mimic what's coming out the FOH. I've never done so. I try to create the best possible mix in my individual Aviom for myself (guitars louder, etc), and entrust our FOH engineer to mix the best possible sound for the audience. Why do they need to be the same? Go on Youtube and search IEM for some of the biggest bands today (e.g. Muse) and you'll see that their individual IEM mixes sound NOTHING like what's coming out the FOH.

[HonestOpinion]

2 hours ago, chemengin said:

My motivation is simply to hear the best possible tone out of the Helix, which for many of us, stereo delays/reverbs sound significantly different compared to mono. It's interesting to hear that some people here try to mimic what's coming out the FOH. I've never done so. I try to create the best possible mix in my individual Aviom for myself (guitars louder, etc), and entrust our FOH engineer to mix the best possible sound for the audience. Why do they need to be the same? Go on Youtube and search IEM for some of the biggest bands today (e.g. Muse) and you'll see that their individual IEM mixes sound NOTHING like what's coming out the FOH.

 

Interesting, that is why I asked for a clarification. Sounds like you know what you are going for. Different strokes for different folks. The very point you make that stereo "sounds significantly different compared to mono" is exactly why many players don't want to have their monitor mix in stereo if that is not what is going to FOH. It makes it harder to judge what the audience is hearing. Btw, I don't necessarily expect the overall mix in my monitors to be the same as the FOH, just the fundamental character of my instrument and signal chain. As you point out I expect volume, EQ, effect levels or certain other qualities in the monitor mix to potentially sound different from the FOH but personally I prefer they not be as profoundly different as a stereo versus mono mix. Yep, if you are the guitarist the guitar will probably be louder in your mix than say the keyboardist's mix which will feature the keyboards more heavily. A vocalist's mix often has less  reverb/delay heavy in the monitor so their voice doesn't get lost in the wash or if they are using stage monitors to cut down on the chances of feedback. No reason you can't or shouldn't go for a stereo mix in the IEM's though if that is your preference. It sounds like for your preferred setup either providing a stereo feed to your soundman and letting them send you back the stereo monitor mix or getting a personal mixer and providing yourself with a stereo mix while you send mono to the soundman might be the way to go. I'm curious how many other Helix users here prefer to monitor in stereo even when the house mix is mono, particularly when using IEMs? I'm sure you're not alone on this.

[Indianrock2020]

Stumbled on an older thread.  I can understand the desire to hear your Helix effects in stereo, but unless you're a solo act, I think what would benefit players more is a stereo monitor mix from the mixer that allows you pan and position the various instruments and vocals.  So you could have drums mostly in left ear, bass a little closer to center, vocals in the right ear and your guitar right in the middle ( just an example ).
In mono from the mixer all your band mates are basically right between your eyes ----- turn up the lead vocal a bit and it blocks the drums etc etc etc.   I keep pushing for this where I play and would take it anyday over hearing Helix reverbs in stereo that the audience can't hear anyway ( stereo FOH is a rarity, unless somebody implements it out of ignorance --- what are audience members on the far sides of the venue going to hear??  It can be done with big bucks, but not common. )

The other big help is an ambient or room mic --- the goal here is to get a bit of what the audience hears into your in-ear mix --- not so much to hear the crowd but how the band as a whole actually sounds with all of the room acoustics etc in play.

[amsdenj]

I send Line6 link to Powercab+ for my stage amp, and stereo L/R out to FOH. We use an X32-Core for PA with 2 SD16s. So each of us (5) can have or own stereo out from the X32-Core to drive our IEMs using a Behringer headphone amp clipped to my belt. Since I’m using a Variax and VDI cable, I’m cabled anyway, so one more doesn’t matter. This way I get my guitar in stereo in my IEMs and mono in the Powercab+ stage amp. The stage amp is only for front fill, and to give me and the guitar something to feel. Stereo in the IEMs gives some sense of space so its easier to relate to what you’re hearing. I turn up the IEMs so I can just barely hear them, they just fill in the highs that are missing from the Powercab, and protect my ears from the drums and the rest of the band. I’m finding this works very well. I have my own mix, but I find that pushing my guitar and vocal up more then a couple of dB isn’t helpful. I need to hear myself in context with the rest of the band and the song, not standing out as a solo. I really try to play to in that context, and feedback from the audience. Makes gigs a lot more fun that way.

[Heavyville]

Its cool to hear things in stereo as intended when the you developed that cool sound, lets make that evident right now lol!!!!. 

Your audience live will never appreciate it as it will never be heard that way for the most part.   So its for personal preference and studio recordings etc.  

My studio patches are what I want the final product on a recording to sound like.   For live,  it take that patch covert to mono and make it sound as close as possible and run with it. 

 

An IEM mix should always be different from the FOH mix imo.   They are trying to accomplish two different things, and will require generally different mixes.... The quality of your IEM's will play a role in what you need from your mix.   If your not hearing something correctly, volume is not your answer, frequency masking is your issue.    You only have so much sonic real estate to work with.   If you need more bass, get the guitar frequency out of the way of the bass and so on or tell your bass player to get out of the guiatr freq etc.   

Making the entire IEM mix as impact as possible with generate more excitement for your ears than focusing on just "my volume" so I can make sure I'm hitting the right notes.... imo, know your material to the point you can play it without hearing it.   I'm not passing judgment on that statement at all btw its just common sense and imo a standard to be at.    Some of my very best gigs I have ever played and had the most crowd reaction too, I couldn't hear a lick of anything on stage that was tangible.  I'll take a band that's on fire over  better sound any-day. 

 

drinking coffee and talking helix is a thing!!! Cheers.

[enjalt]

On 8/10/2018 at 12:17 AM, chemengin said:

I am going mono out of the left output into our FOH. The FOH mixer connects to our individual Aviom in-ear monitoring systems via ethernet cable. I am connecting my IEM headphones into the headphone out of the Aviom (to hear the rest of the band). This, of course, eliminates any stereo effect from the Helix. However, I understand that the "phones" output is in stereo. Is it possible to connect the "phones" output and the Aviom headphone output into a small personal mixer such that I will get the FOH mix (in mono) with my guitar output in stereo?

 

If this is possible, will I need a stereo mixer? If so, will I need to buy some type of Y adapter that takes the "phones" output and splits it into left and right inputs into the stereo mixer?

 

Are there any better ways of doing this?

 

Thank you.

 

You'll juste have to send to FOH from your Helix a stereo Signal (L + R).

 

Then on the Aviom you'll hear your effects in stéréo without changin anything else.

 

It just take 1 more input on your FOH (Guitar L and Guitar R)

 

You'll have in stereo all inst that send L + R to FOH and anyway for the rest of Inst which are Send in Mono you can play with the "Balance" 

 

[Indianrock2020]

You just have to be careful that your sound technician is blending the two mixer channels with your guitar evenly... if only one goes out to the front of house PA speakers your audience will be hearing just one side of the stereo which would be pretty bad