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shawnt113

Bogner models not close

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I messed around with native last night and and pulled up the Shiva and Uberschall models for fun on some DI tracks since I have experience with the real amps (granted it’s limited and some years ago). I have to say these models are nothing like what I remember from the real amps. I know Bogners tend to be a little dark but these models, I couldn’t find a way to dial the dark/mud out.

 

The Shiva I was able to experience was a 25th Anniversary edition so that may be one of the reasons for the difference, but what I recall of the  Shiva, when pushed into high gain was that to me it was everything my 5150 wanted to be when it grew up. The tone was in the same ballpark just refined and much more 3 dimensional. It wasn’t scooped but it did have some cut in some of the mids that I feel are needed with a 5150. The model in the Helix is no where near the glory of that.

 

On the Uberschall model, the Helix is missing the  tight/focused sound with the effortless gain. There is a difference between tons of gain and “effortless” gain. It’s overly dark even muddy and the presence knob does not behave in any fashion similar to what I recall the real amp does.

 

Both seem to have too much low buildup in the input, which I tried to dial out with an eq block to no avail. Also, both miss the mark on the texture and complexity of the gain on the amps. I don’t know if this is just an example of L6 modeling algorithms overall, which in all honesty can’t compare to FAS (yet but I have hope) or if these models are just amps that L6 didn’t really invest much time or attention to.

 

FWIW my Axe FX II doesn’t do these models justice either but in the AF2 they are much closer.

 

Has anyone had any luck with these models? I think I am going to try again tonight to see if I can get better, usable results.

 

p.s Though it may not seem it, this is not a post to bash Helix, it is however my honest assessment of this experience. Also I am hoping someone will have some helpful advice (beyond trying a different model) I mean isn’t the point of getting modelers to experience in the digital world what we do in the analog?

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Have you considered the fact that the Helix has a microphone in the signal chain?  Are you comparing the sound of the Helix to that of an un-mic'd Bogner?

If so, that's why they sound different. The Axe FX II may be closer ( and I think that's debatable ) but it's still going to sound different than the real thing because the Axe FX II also has to have a mic involved in the signal chain.  Not sure if we'll ever get past this hurdle.

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Just goes to show how subjective this all is. Elsewhere (Gearpage?) I've seen people rave about how accurate the Shiva is. 

 

As hideout said, modelers give you the sound of a modeled amp through a mic'd cab. The mics and cabs are themselves modeled. It'll NEVER sound EXACTLY like the real, amp in the room that you remember from years ago.

 

Before you get all crazy with eq, try swapping out different mic and cab combos. Sometimes the most illogical seeming choice is the one that does it for your ears! Then use the eq to fine tune.

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Another thing to remember is that there are multiple revisions of both the Shiva and Uberschall with different power tubes, plate voltage values and other small idiosyncrasies. So it's hard for anyone's distant memory of the "amp in the room" sound of ONE version to match up with a mic'd version of what's probably a completely different version in the Line 6 collection.

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Also...as nice as some of the amp models sound...none of them can feel the same way as playing a tube amp.

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1 hour ago, robbieb61 said:

Also...as nice as some of the amp models sound...none of them can feel the same way as playing a tube amp.

 

It's also HIGHLY dependent on what you're using for your output device (amp/cab, powered speaker, headphones, etc.).  That's going to have a MAJOR influence on the sound you hear.

 

Technically speaking there's really not much in the way of subjectivity when it comes to modeling these amps.  They're simply mathematical simulations of what happens to an input signal as it passes through the stages of real-life amp circuit based on measurements taken.  In these cases an actual Uberschall or Shiva amp.  All the subjective influences happen around that amp model in the signal chain or in the real world when it's ultimately played through a speaker.

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Regarding precence knob, on uber, you are correct, it is modelled COMPLETELY WRONG.

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12 hours ago, shawnt113 said:

I messed around with native last night and and pulled up the Shiva and Uberschall models for fun on some DI tracks since I have experience with the real amps (granted it’s limited and some years ago). I have to say these models are nothing like what I remember from the real amps. I know Bogners tend to be a little dark but these models, I couldn’t find a way to dial the dark/mud out.

 

The Shiva I was able to experience was a 25th Anniversary edition so that may be one of the reasons for the difference, but what I recall of the  Shiva, when pushed into high gain was that to me it was everything my 5150 wanted to be when it grew up. The tone was in the same ballpark just refined and much more 3 dimensional. It wasn’t scooped but it did have some cut in some of the mids that I feel are needed with a 5150. The model in the Helix is no where near the glory of that.

 

On the Uberschall model, the Helix is missing the  tight/focused sound with the effortless gain. There is a difference between tons of gain and “effortless” gain. It’s overly dark even muddy and the presence knob does not behave in any fashion similar to what I recall the real amp does.

 

Both seem to have too much low buildup in the input, which I tried to dial out with an eq block to no avail. Also, both miss the mark on the texture and complexity of the gain on the amps. I don’t know if this is just an example of L6 modeling algorithms overall, which in all honesty can’t compare to FAS (yet but I have hope) or if these models are just amps that L6 didn’t really invest much time or attention to.

 

FWIW my Axe FX II doesn’t do these models justice either but in the AF2 they are much closer.

 

Has anyone had any luck with these models? I think I am going to try again tonight to see if I can get better, usable results.

 

p.s Though it may not seem it, this is not a post to bash Helix, it is however my honest assessment of this experience. Also I am hoping someone will have some helpful advice (beyond trying a different model) I mean isn’t the point of getting modelers to experience in the digital world what we do in the analog?

Shawnt maybe rise the subject on gear page on helix? Over there you have more chances somebody to reply to you from line 6.

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1 hour ago, arislaf said:

Shawnt maybe rise the subject on gear page on helix? Over there you have more chances somebody to reply to you from line 6.

 

Unfortunately and ironically...that's probably true!

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7 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

It's also HIGHLY dependent on what you're using for your output device (amp/cab, powered speaker, headphones, etc.).  That's going to have a MAJOR influence on the sound you hear.

 

Technically speaking there's really not much in the way of subjectivity when it comes to modeling these amps.  They're simply mathematical simulations of what happens to an input signal as it passes through the stages of real-life amp circuit based on measurements taken.  In these cases an actual Uberschall or Shiva amp.  All the subjective influences happen around that amp model in the signal chain or in the real world when it's ultimately played through a speaker.


I agree with that. And I got some awesome sounds out of my Helix's amp models. But they still aren't the same when you have a guitar in your hand and a tube amp side by side with the same amp modeled and running through any of the best speaker combos you want to use.

If they were...then companies would model other amp models instead of tube amps. 

You can't beat it though for being able to tuck a Helix under your arm, walk into a venue and play.

But no...it's not the same as a tube amp in feel and sound.

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I don't have direct experience with these amps in person, but I do have some nice commercial profiles of them on my Kemper. As an experiment, I took one of those Kemper profiles and dialed in the Helix model to match it. Neither I nor a friend who is another member of this forum could tell which one was which after we dialed in the Helix model to match the Kemper profile.

 

So I'd say, based on at least that one data point, the Helix model is pretty accurate, assuming the commercial Kemper profile was accurate. We literally could detect no difference between them that our ears could discern.

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Thank you guys for all of your replies. I haven’t had a chance to go back to mess around with this further, but I’m hoping to be able to tonight.

 

To points some of you have made. 

 

Though I start with the cab sims in the Helix I almost always end up using third party IR’s, usually Ownhammer Heavy Hitters or the new GNR pack. 

 

Y’all are right that adjusting from the amp in the room to mic’d cab through monitors, I had to adjust to that several years ago when I got my first modeler. 

 

I also have to agree that with the Helix, you just can’t get that playing through a real tube amp vibe, but with the Axe FX you can, and the Kemper is not too far behind based off the couple of times I’ve used one.

 

if this weekend doesn’t yield good results I think I’ll take the advice of taking this to the gear page. I again want to thank you all for your advice and for keeping it positive and helpful. You guys rock!

 

Below is a video I came across that jibes with my recollection of the amp and really other than being a bit bassy and the gain is higher than I’d use this is really the tone I was shooting for. I think he said he ran a 57 on a v30 for this.

 

 

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I guess my question is why you would want THAT tone. It's fizzy, flubby and mega undefined. Reminds of me days in my youth wasted by mid-scooping a dimed Crate amp in drop D. In fact, if you told me it came from, say, a Boss GT-6, I'd believe you. That would be eaten up in any sort of live or studio mix.

 

Blech.....

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I guess to each their own. I like it,  but that’s just me. Like I said I would take some of the lows and gain out. I would dial it to be a little less scooped sounding. I like having the fizz to dial out with a high cut filter a lot more than I like not having it and trying to “boost” it in.

 

 

here is an example of a Shiva in the studio, a tone that I love 

 

 

 

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Hey man...nothing wrong with chasing tone in your head. If that's your thing....go for it.

 

After doing some research, it appears that Ben Adrian confirmed that the Shiva modeled in the Helix is the 60-watt 6L6 version, when all of your personal experience and what you linked to in your clip is from NINETY watt KT88 "Anniversary" version, so....pretty much a different animal. They're definitely voiced differently. 

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Since the knobs are certainly visible on the bogner video, did you try those settings in your Helix? Even though they are actually different amps.

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The simple secret is turn it up. Helix will sound a lot more like the original amp if the SPL is similar. You can’t get great guitar tone out of anything that’s quiet. The tone and feel comes from moving air and is totally subjective, something evolution contributed to keep us alive.

 

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