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andrewyano

HX Stomp needs 8 blocks

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Hello, new HX stomp user here. First time using any helix product. Running into a wall with the 6 block limit. I wish this thing had at least 8 blocks in future updates. If I run 2 overdrive pedals, amp, ir cab, noise gate, and compressor, I hit my limit. I cannot run reverb, or delay. I cannot even add a fx loop block to add a volume pedal, reverb, or delay pedals externally. If I even had 7 blocks maybe I could add a autoswell block so I wouldn't need my volume pedal for swells. Just please give me 8 blocks. The only way around these limitations is to create similar presets and change presets to replace any particular block with something else. Like change one delay pedal to a different delay pedal because you cannot run 2 in the same path because of block limitations. Even if you wouldn't run them at the same time.

 

I also do not see how to run that initial chain to FOH and also separate chain b to an amp for on stage monitoring without the amp/cabs in the chain. I was able to send a signal chain without the amp/cab to the output jacks for an amp, and a path b with the amp/cab to the front of house using the send jack on the right of the pedal. Don't know if there is a difference between output quality of the send on the right of the unit, and the balanced output on the back of the unit. Maybe someone can enlighten me if the send on the right is also a balanced output also.

 

Managed to hook up a Boss FS-7 to bank up and down my presets.

 

Overall I am very happy with the sound quality. I am tired of carrying my fender tube amps, along with pedalboard around. Much easier to just carry the helix stomp that does effects and digital amp modeling. Once again please increase block limit to 8. thank you

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If the Stomp came with 8 blocks, the next headline will be "HX Stomp needs 10 blocks" :)

I get what you're saying, I'm just playing devils advocate. 

 

I've never viewed the stomp as a "stand alone" unit. I've always thought the design was intended to fit into an existing board... like the Eventide H9 is. They may market it as a backup or travel replacement for a Helix... but I would expect a lot of compromise when used like that. 

 

12 hours ago, andrewyano said:

I also do not see how to run that initial chain to FOH and also separate chain b to an amp for on stage monitoring without the amp/cabs in the chain. I was able to send a signal chain without the amp/cab to the output jacks for an amp, and a path b with the amp/cab to the front of house using the send jack on the right of the pedal. Don't know if there is a difference between output quality of the send on the right of the unit, and the balanced output on the back of the unit. Maybe someone can enlighten me if the send on the right is also a balanced output also.

 

You don't have to use the send. Splitting the path should be enough. PATH A to LEFT OUT, PATH B with AMP/CAB SIM to RIGHT OUT. Hard pan the two paths then send LEFT to the amp and RIGHT to the console. That saves a block by not needing a SEND.

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12 hours ago, andrewyano said:

Hello, new HX stomp user here. First time using any helix product. Running into a wall with the 6 block limit. I wish this thing had at least 8 blocks in future updates. If I run 2 overdrive pedals, amp, ir cab, noise gate, and compressor, I hit my limit. I cannot run reverb, or delay. I cannot even add a fx loop block to add a volume pedal, reverb, or delay pedals externally. If I even had 7 blocks maybe I could add a autoswell block so I wouldn't need my volume pedal for swells. Just please give me 8 blocks. The only way around these limitations is to create similar presets and change presets to replace any particular block with something else. Like change one delay pedal to a different delay pedal because you cannot run 2 in the same path because of block limitations. Even if you wouldn't run them at the same time.

 

There is a noise gate in the input block, so you may want to see if you can use that in lieu of using a noise gate block in the chain. There are also ways you can get around using a Volume block. You might want to try assigning the Channel Volume parameter in the amp block to the expression pedal, for instance.

 

I don't think that Line 6 is going to add more processing blocks to the Stomp. It can be used as a standalone pedal, but I don't necessarily think that's the primary use case. I think most users will be incorporating the Stomp into existing pedalboards or using it with other gear. If you want a true standalone rig without the same sort of block limitations, the Helix or the LT are definitely the way to go, imo.

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I personally think its a little silly to not allow dynamic DSP just like the big Helix, but I don't think that as of now the display set-up is designed to scale for more block, or scroll for more block. They probably insulated themselves from a lot of "I can put 10 blocks in this patch, but only 6 in this other one, what gives?!" posts/support tickets by restricting it, though.

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3 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

I personally think its a little silly to not allow dynamic DSP just like the big Helix, but I don't think that as of now the display set-up is designed to scale for more block, or scroll for more block. They probably insulated themselves from a lot of "I can put 10 blocks in this patch, but only 6 in this other one, what gives?!" posts/support tickets by restricting it, though.

 

Well, it does have dynamic DSP, there's just fewer blocks to work with... You can still max out the DSP with 5 blocks if you want.

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59 minutes ago, phil_m said:

If you want a true standalone rig without the same sort of block limitations, the Helix or the LT are definitely the way to go, imo.

 

This is it right here, folks. The stomp is not being marketed to the same users as the other devices. It would have made no financial sense to release a 3rd Helix product that's functionally identical to first two, just in a smaller package.... it's essentially saying "here's the exact same thing we've already released twice, please pay us less money for it." Nobody does that...

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16 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

Well, it does have dynamic DSP, there's just fewer blocks to work with... You can still max out the DSP with 5 blocks if you want.

That's not really dynamic DSP like the bigger siblings.

5 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

This is it right here, folks. The stomp is not being marketed to the same users as the other devices. It would have made no financial sense to release a 3rd Helix product that's functionally identical to first two, just in a smaller package.... it's essentially saying "here's the exact same thing we've already released twice, please pay us less money for it." Nobody does that...

Well, with the massive hardware limit, even with the exact same DSP it would never do what the other ones do, but that obviously wasn't the intention of the product. I was jazzed on the Stomp as a backup, but half of my live patches NEED at least 8-10 blocks or gapless preset switching with spillover, so now its back to pinching pennies for an LT as a backup.

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8 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

That's not really dynamic DSP like the bigger siblings.

 

Well, yeah, you don't have the full 16 blocks to work with like you would on a single processor path on the larger products. But all dynamic DSP means to me is the ability to use allocate the DSP resources however you want as opposed to having a semi-fixed allocation like the Firehawk or AMPLIFi products, for example.

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3 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

Well, yeah, you don't have the full 16 blocks to work with like you would on a single processor path on the larger products. But all dynamic DSP means to me is the ability to use allocate the DSP resources however you want as opposed to having a semi-fixed allocation like the Firehawk or AMPLIFi products, for example.

 

I get it, but the argument is semantics and not real world application. If you can load 16 blocks on one path in the Floor, logic would imply that a single processor version could handle an equal number of blocks, but that would require a larger (or at least more thought-out-to-accommodate UI), which was obviously not the idea of the product. It's a shame for my use case, because I gotta spend more money for something this product could theoretically do (if the software allowed for it). 

 

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3 hours ago, gunpointmetal said:

 

I get it, but the argument is semantics and not real world application. If you can load 16 blocks on one path in the Floor, logic would imply that a single processor version could handle an equal number of blocks, but that would require a larger (or at least more thought-out-to-accommodate UI), which was obviously not the idea of the product. It's a shame for my use case, because I gotta spend more money for something this product could theoretically do (if the software allowed for it). 

 

 

I understand what you're saying (and I've had a moment or two where I've been like, "Blast, if I only had ONE more block . . .). However, I likewise don't think that the number of blocks was arbitrary.  Even with dynamic DSP in the Helix, there's a reason they didn't give you 60 blocks and let you just deal with it when you max out at 21 blocks.

 

So it is with the Stomp. If I remember right, Line 6 states in the FAQ pinned at the top that six blocks was carefully chosen to do many things, including not back themselves in a corner for future updates.

 

Considering I've already had moments where the DSP told me that I didn't have enough left to use a specific block, I get the feeling it couldn't handle too much beyond six. Nevertheless, as a user of the Stomp I get where you're coming from.

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If it had patch spillover, it would be a non-issue for me, but I understand that this product wasn't designed for my use (even though its 98% of the way there) and good job on Line 6 for getting me to buy a $300 more expensive product!

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I get it also but as others have pointed out this is for a different market other the the bigger brothers. I am one of those who loved the Helix but never used it to the full potential. I am a simple setup guy, comp, od, amp/cab, mod maybe, delay maybe and reverb. 6 is plenty for my needs, I let my guitar to the rest.

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I used helix edit to try and split the signal to path a & b. But i come across the problem that i cannot send path a to left and path b to right. It makes my path b go to send. Not output right. Also 6 is very limiting. If they made it so you are limited to 6 blocks engaged at a time it would be better. Because the nonengaged pedals should not use up dsp. The reason i would want more blocks even if they arent engaged is because snapshots take less time switching. I know i can make presets with the changes, but i But there would be that lag or gap in time it takes for the preset to switch. So i wouldnt be able to use one preset for verses, another for chorus, and another for bridge. 

 

So my typical setup would be 2 stackable ods, dotted 8 delay, reverb, amp and ir. But i would need an fx block to add my volume pedal between my drives and delay/reverb. Also if it had more blocks that i could put in that werent used simultaneously i could put in different reverbs that would change per snapshot. One reverb for regular rhythms/lead. Another bigger (washier) reverb for volume swells. One with digital delays set for lead. Another with delay set for analog volume swells. All not used at the same time, but ready to be switched on and off for diffferent snapshots. Only way i can see to get past my 6 block limitation is to either use different presets or adding my analog overdrive pedals and volume pedal before the hx stomp to free up usable blocks.

 

sorry i know hx stomp isnt a full blown helix. I kind of thought of it as a mini helix for people who didnt want all those foot switches and such a large footprint on their pedalboard.

 

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8 hours ago, andyyano said:

If they made it so you are limited to 6 blocks engaged at a time it would be better. Because the nonengaged pedals should not use up dsp. The reason i would want more blocks even if they arent engaged is because snapshots take less time switching. I know i can make presets with the changes, but i But there would be that lag or gap in time it takes for the preset to switch. So i wouldnt be able to use one preset for verses, another for chorus, and another for bridge. 

 

Non-engaged blocks aren't technically using DSP when they're not engaged (although, if you want delay and/or reverb trails, those blocks are still actively processing even when they're off), but the DSP they use has to be reserved so that when you turn them on, there's guaranteed to be enough DSP to use them. That's just a fact of life when it comes to DSP effects.

 

I would say you shouldn't necessarily give up on the idea of switching presets between parts of songs. There is a gap between presets, but the typical gap on the Stomp is about half as long as the typical gap on the Helix. At most it should be 40ms... In my experience, unless you really need spillover from verse to chorus, you can generally get away with that a lot of the time.

 

 

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9 hours ago, andyyano said:

I used helix edit to try and split the signal to path a & b. But i come across the problem that i cannot send path a to left and path b to right. It makes my path b go to send.

 

I'm confused as to what you're saying here.  Are you referring to panning one signal to stereo right and one to stereo left, because you can absolutely do that. If that's not what you mean, what do you mean? What exactly are you trying to do?

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23 hours ago, gunpointmetal said:

That's not really dynamic DSP like the bigger siblings.

Well, with the massive hardware limit, even with the exact same DSP it would never do what the other ones do, but that obviously wasn't the intention of the product. I was jazzed on the Stomp as a backup, but half of my live patches NEED at least 8-10 blocks or gapless preset switching with spillover, so now its back to pinching pennies for an LT as a backup.

My use-case is a bit different and I LOVED the Stomp. The kicker for me was the inability to share presets between the Stomp and Helix and Native, even those that all fit the Stomp's limitations.

 

The block limit is artificial and according to interviews with the Stomp product folks, it didn't sound like they were going to be increased in the future as it went against the intent of the product. Their market are tube-amp pedal-board folks - and that's a large market. They are not marketing to us who are already sold on modeling.

 

Even knowing I wasn't their intended market, I bought one anyway and like I said, I LOVED it. And I still do. But I returned it - just too many constraints. The biggest one for me was the inability to load Helix presets and the inability for the Helix to load Stomp presets - even when they are lowest-common-denominator presets that conform to the Stomp limitations.

 

But ... Line 6 are truly geniuses, though. They just sold me a second Helix. They sucked me in with the Stomp, and when I found it a little too limiting, I returned it and paid the difference for a full Helix. I thought about an LT, but what the heck, I already have a full Helix, and once you go full Helix, there's no going back. :-)

 

One more thing that made this swap a little easier is that I recently purchased a PowerCab Plus. I have to say, I was underwhelmed with it. So actually, I returned both the Stomp and the PowerCab Plus, and that funded 90% of the cost of the second Helix. The way my GAS rationalization works is - the Stomp and PC+ was money already budgeted and spent, so it was effectively gone. So my new Helix #2 only cost me about $150. I love the way the human brain can rationalize things. :-)

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You can copy blocks, with certain limitations. You can't copy presets.

 

The limitations with blocks is that if you are copying a preset that uses snapshots, the block copies over using the settings of the snapshot you happen to be on when you copied it. After that, you have to go in and manually adjust the snapshot settings for any other snapshots, and also reassign the controller to all the snapshot parameters to "snapshots".

 

If you're copying a preset block-by-block that doesn't use snapshots (or any other controllers), it works easily and is quick. If you intent is to keep presets in sync between a Stomp and a Helix (or Native), this will get old very very quickly - especially if the devices are rarely in the same room since they have to both be connected to the same computer to do this. If you were able to transfer presets between them, you only need access to the preset files - like dropbox or similar. Save preset from Helix to dropbox. Load from dropbox to stomp. Modify that preset in the Stomp and save it back to dropbox. Load it back into Helix to get the updates. That would be the workflow I'd want, and is what you can do between Helix->Helix, Helix->Helix LT, and Helix->Native, and all combinations. The Stomp is the left all on it's own and can't participate in that party.

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11 minutes ago, bsd512 said:

You can copy blocks, with certain limitations. You can't copy presets.

 

The limitations with blocks is that if you are copying a preset that uses snapshots, the block copies over using the settings of the snapshot you happen to be on when you copied it. After that, you have to go in and manually adjust the snapshot settings for any other snapshots, and also reassign the controller to all the snapshot parameters to "snapshots".

 

If you're copying a preset block-by-block that doesn't use snapshots (or any other controllers), it works easily and is quick. If you intent is to keep presets in sync between a Stomp and a Helix (or Native), this will get old very very quickly - especially if the devices are rarely in the same room since they have to both be connected to the same computer to do this. If you were able to transfer presets between them, you only need access to the preset files - like dropbox or similar. Save preset from Helix to dropbox. Load from dropbox to stomp. Modify that preset in the Stomp and save it back to dropbox. Load it back into Helix to get the updates. That would be the workflow I'd want, and is what you can do between Helix->Helix, Helix->Helix LT, and Helix->Native, and all combinations. The Stomp is the left all on it's own and can't participate in that party.

 

This is the one area that also annoyed me recently. For me, it's useful to have several variations of the same preset and switch between them, especially as a way to handle the Stomp's smaller number of footswitches.

 

Unfortunately while you can copy blocks, there is no "copy whole frickin' preset" which seems like a strange oversight. Unlike some Stomp wishes, this one could easily be done with an update and shouldn't be a hardware limitation. Recreating whole presets by memory is certainly possible and it's definitely a first world problem - but it's still annoying after a bit.

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On 11/14/2018 at 5:00 PM, bsd512 said:

You can copy blocks, with certain limitations. You can't copy presets.

 

Not yet, but they're working on it.

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the translation here is

 

I don't actually need an HX Stomp, I need to get the full Helix or the LT.  Just saying. :)

 

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9 minutes ago, caledoneus said:

the translation here is

 

I don't actually need an HX Stomp, I need to get the full Helix or the LT....

 

 

...but I don't want to spend the extra money. ;)

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47 minutes ago, caledoneus said:

the translation here is

 

I don't actually need an HX Stomp, I need to get the full Helix or the LT.  Just saying. :)

 

 

I have to say in this case, I think it's a gripe that is at least worth considering.  When I thought the HX Stomp processor could only handle six blocks, I was okay with it.  I bought it expecting 6 blocks and I got them.  I figured a more powerful processor would have bumped the price tag up significantly.

 

When I found out it ALREADY was a more powerful processor - indeed, HALF as powerful as a Helix, and so in theory ought to be able to handle 8 blocks, 10 blocks, 12 blocks . . .but artificially had it's knee caps lobbed off.

 

That seems like a wasted opportunity. The product would only be cooler, and more desirable, to its audience if it had more blocks. Even small things like having the FX send returns in addition to the 6 block limit would be nice. ESPECIALLY when compared side by side with its obvious competition, the Headrush Gigboard. For now, if you MUST have more than six blocks, and you're okay with slightly worse sounds (IMO), a mono effects loop, but easier interface - Gigboard. If you want better sounds, stereo loop, smaller size, and save $50 - Stomp. For a lot of people, the block difference will be a deciding factor - but imagine if the Stomp pretty much competed with blocks too? It would STILL be $50 cheaper . . .the only real advantage of the Headrush is the interface at that point, and once you figure out the Stomp it's pretty dang easy. To me it's an obvious miss.

 

BUT Line 6 indicated in the future it will make more sense. That may be true. For now though it's still baffling.

 

I still love the device though.

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1 minute ago, Kilrahi said:

When I found out it ALREADY was a more powerful processor - indeed, HALF as powerful as a Helix, and so in theory ought to be able to handle 8 blocks, 10 blocks, 12 blocks . . .but artificially had it's knee caps lobbed off.

 

That seems like a bit of a waist. The product would only be cooler, and more desirable, to its audience if it had more blocks. Even small things like having the FX send returns in addition to the 6 block limit would be nice.

 

Line 6 indicated in the future it will make more sense. That may be true. For now though it feels a little baffling. 

It seems they mostly limited it to keep people from complaining about being able to put 10 blocks in one preset and only 6 in another because of how different FX use DSP, which kinda  makes sense, but kinda not when you consider how the big brothers handle this (you add blocks till you're out of DSP). But I'm not really sure what they could possibly mean by "It will make more sense in the future".

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Anyone have a link to where Line 6 said it would make more sense in the future?

 

 

Purely speculation on my part, but maybe they'll somehow allow effects to be changed out for another with snapshots or something. With a press of a button your Placater Clean can be swapped to a dirty for example. I have no idea if that's even possible, but it would make the 6 blocks much less of a limitation.

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15 minutes ago, matthewklein said:

Anyone have a link to where Line 6 said it would make more sense in the future?

 

 

Purely speculation on my part, but maybe they'll somehow allow effects to be changed out for another with snapshots or something. With a press of a button your Placater Clean can be swapped to a dirty for example. I have no idea if that's even possible, but it would make the 6 blocks much less of a limitation.

 
From about 18:50 - 20:10

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11 hours ago, matthewklein said:

maybe they'll somehow allow effects to be changed out for another with snapshots or something. With a press of a button your Placater Clean can be swapped to a dirty for example. 

 

Those are presets....

 

I know that may sound like a condescending answer... but I don't mean it to. The problem is - it's the unloading and loading of amp/fx models that causes the audio gap during a preset change... snapshots get around the audio gap by only allowing on/off status and parameter changes - the models don't need to reload. 

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22 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

You can do this with snapshots already. I have numerous patches with both clean and dirty amp models in the chain, toggled on/off with different snapshots...

 

Just to be clear... this solution does require two blocks.

I'm pretty sure given the subject of this thread the desire was to make the amp change within one block via snapshot.

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7 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

Just to be clear... this solution does require two blocks.

I'm pretty sure given the subject of this thread the desire was to make the amp change within one block via snapshot.

 

My mistake...I was thinking Helix floor,  not the Stomp, so it doesn't apply anyway. Can't really chew up 1/3 of the available blocks with amps...

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On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 5:13 PM, Kilrahi said:

 

This is the one area that also annoyed me recently. For me, it's useful to have several variations of the same preset and switch between them, especially as a way to handle the Stomp's smaller number of footswitches.

 

Unfortunately while you can copy blocks, there is no "copy whole frickin' preset" which seems like a strange oversight. Unlike some Stomp wishes, this one could easily be done with an update and shouldn't be a hardware limitation. Recreating whole presets by memory is certainly possible and it's definitely a first world problem - but it's still annoying after a bit.

 

why would you not just save (a copy) the existing preset to a new preset location?

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4 hours ago, paulbackskin said:

 

why would you not just save (a copy) the existing preset to a new preset location?

 

I have no idea why you wouldn't, OTHER than I had no idea that you could.

 

After you mentioned this I went back and checked the manual and yeah . . . it looks like you can.

 

So awesome. Problem solved.  Thanks for pointing that out! Complicated device . . . more to learn I imagine . . .

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I'm hoping to be able to copy a whole path. Many of my patches consist of two totally different sounds in them, usually a pad type thing and the "normal" guitar sound. I often grab a "normal" sounding patch first and then add the pad, which is always the same thing. To do this I have to go back and forth between the pad patch and the two sound patch, copying each block, one at a time to put in path 2 of the "normal/pad" patch, save that, then go back to the pad patch for the next block. Sure would make it easier if I could copy a whole path somehow instead of copying it one block at a time.

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On 12/12/2018 at 6:31 AM, codamedia said:

 

Those are presets....

 

I know that may sound like a condescending answer... but I don't mean it to. The problem is - it's the unloading and loading of amp/fx models that causes the audio gap during a preset change... snapshots get around the audio gap by only allowing on/off status and parameter changes - the models don't need to reload. 

 

Gotcha, I just thought it might be possible to eliminate the gap if only one element of the chain was swapped out rather than the whole thing, but I have zero idea of what I'm talking about. It just feels like a waste to have DSP eaten up on two amps for example if only one is ever used at a time.

 

Maybe that's something that could be added in the future? Multi channel amps? I'm sure it would use more DSP, but maybe less than running two entirely seperate amps.

 

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