HX Stomp - Thin sounding (Solved - Phantom Pwr)

[jfeniello]

Hi,

I have a new Stomp (moving from an HD500).  I'm going directly into the board, and i'm using both factory DIR: presets and ones i've custom made.  All sound very thin, like no bass or grunt, and a little buzz-saw like.  I've checked the output, set to line.  A/B testing with the HD500, it's much fatter and full sounding.  I've adjusted the Global EQ, maxing out the low, which brings up the low end, but it's still not fat sounding at all.

Am i missing something?  

Thanks for any input

-jim

Edited December 9, 2018 by jfeniello
Solved, changed title

[cruisinon2]

If your first few days with your 500 were anything like mine, then you know what working with modelers is like initially. Helix is no different... it's all trial and error. Much depends on what you're playing through, also... what are you using? PA speakers,  studio monitors, headphones? Regardless, you should stay away from the global EQ... that's for fine tuning all your patches to various different acoustic environments. Don't use it to create patches... the are 1000 other ways to tinker with individual tones, and what works for one amp model won't for the next. Put an EQ block in the chain if necessary.

 

 

[DunedinDragon]

It almost sounds like you don't have a cab/IR connected to your chosen amp.

[jfeniello]

Thanks for the input.   Since i bypassed the whole helix era, i think i'm a little behind.  

For the ones i've creates, i did use the amp/cab combos.  I was assuming they were the same tone wise, just maybe not as configurable as using a separate amp and cab block?

IR is totally new to me, and just now looking up what it is.  That being said, i'm pretty sure i don't have any associated.  Also doesn't look like i have any in my environment.  Why aren't there any in there for the defaults?

 

thanks

-jim

[cruisinon2]

1 hour ago, jfeniello said:

IR is totally new to me, and just now looking up what it is.  That being said, i'm pretty sure i don't have any associated.  Also doesn't look like i have any in my environment.  Why aren't there any in there for the defaults?

 

thanks

-jim

 

IR's are 3rd a third party thing, they aren't supplied with the unit. There are a bunch of companies making them now...Ownhammer, 3 Sigma, Redwirze, etc. Most offer a few that you can try for free, the rest you pay for. 

[bsd512]

Need more information - it shouldn't sound thin and buzzy. You mentioned you are going directly into "the board". That's where I'd start looking especially if you are using one of the "DIR:..." factory presets.

 

Double check that your global output preference are set to "instrument" or "line out" and make sure that matches what the board is expecting. Then make sure the board has enough level and a flat EQ.

 

Alternatively, send your output directly into a powered PA speaker (or a pair of them for stereo). Make sure your volume knob is up so you have a good hot signal going to the board or PA speaker, and then use the speaker's volume knob to adjust from there.

 

Try those and see if that gets you closer to what you expect.

[jfeniello]

Thanks

So i've tried it in two different boards.. flat settings on both.  One then goes out through a set of studio speakers, the other is out live rig, and out through in-ear monitors.  I've checked that the Stomp output is line out, and i've tried swapping back and fourth between the HD500 and the Stomp.  Overall levels are the same, it's just that the Stomp just sounds like there's no body to it.   It's not that there's something so wrong that it doesn't sound like a guitar or anything, just not full.  i understand that my explanation isn't great, and it's opinion, but if i play unaltered factory presets on the HD500 vs unaltered presets on the Stomp, there's a difference.  I know presets stink, there's differences in the two devices, etc.   I guess i would liken it to what it would sound like coming from a 5" speaker vs a 12".  

I'm assuming now that i'm not missing any global setting or anything, as it seems like the only thing is instrument vs line out.  It's not bad enough to say it's a bad unit, but i'd assume that others would have mentioned the same 'problem' if they all sounded thin out of the box.  Maybe i should exchange it just to eliminate that possibility.

 

-jim

[Kilrahi]

1 hour ago, jfeniello said:

Thanks

So i've tried it in two different boards.. flat settings on both.  One then goes out through a set of studio speakers, the other is out live rig, and out through in-ear monitors.  I've checked that the Stomp output is line out, and i've tried swapping back and fourth between the HD500 and the Stomp.  Overall levels are the same, it's just that the Stomp just sounds like there's no body to it.   It's not that there's something so wrong that it doesn't sound like a guitar or anything, just not full.  i understand that my explanation isn't great, and it's opinion, but if i play unaltered factory presets on the HD500 vs unaltered presets on the Stomp, there's a difference.  I know presets stink, there's differences in the two devices, etc.   I guess i would liken it to what it would sound like coming from a 5" speaker vs a 12".  

I'm assuming now that i'm not missing any global setting or anything, as it seems like the only thing is instrument vs line out.  It's not bad enough to say it's a bad unit, but i'd assume that others would have mentioned the same 'problem' if they all sounded thin out of the box.  Maybe i should exchange it just to eliminate that possibility.

 

-jim

 

I would see if you can compare it to another Stomp first.  I mean, it's hard for me to imagine, but maybe you just prefer the older Line 6 sounds.

 

Have you tried making a legacy sounds only preset based on a preset you used to use?  That might be something to at least give you a better idea if it's just the device itself that you don't like.

[jonandtice]

I'm assuming that by "the board" you mean a mixer board.  A couple things you can check:

1. Output setting.  Most mixer boards have both mic level inputs and line level inputs on the same channel.  If the channel only has one input then it is probably a mic level input.  Set the outputs to be whatever your mixer is expecting.
2. Are you running it in stereo?  If you are that could be the source of the problem.  If your mixer has a stereo link try turning it on/off and reverse the polarity on one of the channels.

[codamedia]

2 hours ago, jfeniello said:

and i've tried swapping back and fourth between the HD500 and the Stomp.  Overall levels are the same, it's just that the Stomp just sounds like there's no body to it.   

 

Something is amiss... 

 

I've used an HD500 for about 4 years.. and although I don't have a stomp I just recently moved to a Helix LT. In general, the Helix is richer/thicker sounding. I wouldn't imagine the Stomp shouldn't be any different.

 

1 hour ago, Kilrahi said:

Have you tried making a legacy sounds only preset based on a preset you used to use? 

 

That's a great suggestion. Setup what you are familiar with, then proceed. I am still using a lot of legacy effects on my LT... for this very reason.

[CraigGT]

Just a thought but does the Stomp suffer from the same phantom power issue? 

[jfeniello]

3 hours ago, CraigGT said:

Just a thought but does the Stomp suffer from the same phantom power issue? 

Hmm, not familiar, but i did add this to a pedal board with two other transformers plugged into an extension cord last week and the behavior "may" have appeared after that.  I was re-plugging in audio signal cables to eliminate that chain from causing it, but didn't think to isolate power.  I'll try that tonight.

thanks

[phil_m]

3 hours ago, CraigGT said:

Just a thought but does the Stomp suffer from the same phantom power issue? 

 

No, phantom power has no effect on the Stomp.

[jfeniello]

Duh, wasn't thinking about mic/xlr phantom power, was thinking of powerline interference.  I'll test both tonight and report back

[jfeniello]

So, I've done a little more testing.  First off, i bought a second unit.  Exactly the same (returned it).

I use my HX (and HD before) as a full simulator.  So direct into the board.  We have an XLR subsnake that goes from stage front to the board.  I used to plug directly in to that from the HD500 with the XLR connection.  Since the HX Stomp has TRS 1/4 balanced connections, i was using a 1/4 TRS to XLR cable to go into the subsnake.  Sounds thin as hell.  Everything sounds good in headphones, so i ensured the signal path was flat... all the way through the mixer to JBL PRX-612s.  

I then went out of the HX Stomp with a TS 1/4" cable into a direct box to XLR to sub-snake.  Totally different (and fuller) tone.  I also tried 1/4 TS to a 1/4-XLR transformer adapter.  Slightly different tone, but still full.

So it seems like the main mono out TRS isn't balanced or it's doing something that thins out the tone.

Can anyone else confirm this behavior?   Any thoughts?

 

thanks

-jim

[Kilrahi]

Nothing you're saying makes any sense to me. I  don't mean that to throw down, just to say I have no idea what you're experiencing.

 

I don't even mess with balanced outs. Standard 1/4 out to Firehawk 1500. I had a Pod HD500x prior, and while I loved the Pod, the meatiness of the Stomp mops the floor with it.

[codamedia]

14 hours ago, jfeniello said:

Since the HX Stomp has TRS 1/4 balanced connections, i was using a 1/4 TRS to XLR cable to go into the subsnake.  Sounds thin as hell....

 

...So it seems like the main mono out TRS isn't balanced or it's doing something that thins out the tone.

 

 

Nice job of  troubleshooting the problem... glad to see you narrowed it down. 

Have you ruled out the TRS to XLR cable? Are you positive it's wired to spec? I've seen some TRS to XLR cables that are specific for certain devices/connections and it can cause trouble when they mingle in the same cable box.

 

Also... I see above that phil_m said phantom power does not effect the Stomp... but this thin sound seems similar to the phantom power issue with the Helix units. Has that been 100% ruled out... just curious.

[jfeniello]

So.....

Just confirmed, Phantom power does indeed affect the HX Stomp drastically.  My phantom power has been on this whole time (two different mixers) and that was causing my issues.  I'm pretty happy i figured out what the issue was, as i really wanted to incorporate this in my setup, and now i can.  (and the fact i was convincing myself that i was crazy and making it up).

I'd record a video, but not sure the tonality will come through that great, but my impression was switching back and fourth was it's very similar to a set of headphones...  with phantom power on, it's like what you hear when the headphones are hanging around your neck, and with phantom power off, its like they're on your ears correctly :).  

 

[jfeniello]

I guess just to add to it, even though phantom power is a standard, i assume there could be different equipment that acts differently, so in my case, the phantom power from a Mackie DL1608 and a Behringer 14usb (something like that) does display the issue.

[jws1982]

I feel like a Radial Pro d2 DI box should be a standard purchase with every helix.  Guaranteed best sound and compatibility with any PA system.  

 

...come to think of it, why aren’t the XLR outs on the helix floor / LT just part of a built-in stereo DI box?  

[codamedia]

4 hours ago, jfeniello said:

I guess just to add to it, even though phantom power is a standard, i assume there could be different equipment that acts differently, so in my case, the phantom power from a Mackie DL1608 and a Behringer 14usb (something like that) does display the issue.

 

This is a problem with the Helix line in general... not the fault of others products. 

 

The HELIX (unlike all former Line 6 products I know of) does not work with phantom power... well - sure, it works, but the sound goes for a crap as you have learned! I'll leave it at that :) 

 

 

2 hours ago, jws1982 said:

...come to think of it, why aren’t the XLR outs on the helix floor / LT just part of a built-in stereo DI box?  

 

OK - I guess I won't leave it at that :) 

 

That's how it was on all former devices.... IMO, L6 dropped the ball on development and testing with the Helix in this regard! I have yet to see them publish a plausible explanation for this design flaw.

[phil_m]

2 hours ago, codamedia said:

That's how it was on all former devices.... IMO, L6 dropped the ball on development and testing with the Helix in this regard! I have yet to see them publish a plausible explanation for this design flaw.

 

On the Helix, LT and Rack, I've been told it's because of the anti-pop circuitry on the XLR outs. I was actually told that the TRS outs on the Stomp were unaffected by phantom power, but I've never tested it myself.