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Ts312 help


mentalmorg
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Hi there, I’m new to the helix lt. I’ve just purchased one with the alto 312. I find the alto a little bottom heavy. Is there anyone else using the 312 out there willing to help with setting up? I’ve heard they are great speakers to use with the helix, it’s just all rather complicated at the moment though. 

Many help would be great. 

 

Regards 

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They are bottom heavy like TS212 and its bass needs to be rolled out somehow. You can use Global EQ for that (page 50 of the manual). Unfortunatelly Global EQ can not be assigned where it could be really helpfull :( There is a myth among guitarists that monitor should have 12" woofer because guitar speakers are 12". I think 8" woofer in monitor (call it FRFR if you want) is enough. 
Make sure the contour switch is not engaged.

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Your alto 312 is FRFR - think of it as the PA.

Your Helix is putting out full range too.  But a guitar stack doesn't.

Typically you have serious cut below 100hz and above 5KHz.

That is what you need - not only will your bottom end tighten right up (you might find you can put back some bottoms in your amp for example), but the smoothness of your distorted sounds will improve out of sight.

You can do that with Global EQ or in the cuts in the speaker simulation (or IR).

Although doing it per patch gives you the option to tweak those for each patch, I'm yet to be convinced a general global EQ as described above isn't a 95% fix for everything.

Then patch EQ is just fine tuning.

12inch guitar speakers have no resemblance to the 12 in your Alto - it's a full range speaker, not a guitar speaker.

The EQ I'm suggestion sounds fine out to FOH too. 

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My personal experience leads me to believe that PA speakers sound and work better when they are up on a pole at head level. I set-up my tones that way then just turn the bass level on the speaker down a touch when I use it on the floor like a monitor. I don't have that particular speaker, but most "full-range" speakers are going to be boomier in the bottom and more shrill in the highs than a guitar speaker because A - the cabinets are usually somewhat designed to get the most out of the drivers where a guitar cabinet is mostly an arbitrary shape and size someone came up with 70 years ago that would hold the proper number of speakers they wanted with no real intent from a design standpoint for the drivers, and B- they're made to amplify ALL instruments and have something else managing the equalization. 

 

TL;DR

Get it up off the floor before you get too drastic with the EQ.

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Just had a quick go before bed and those cuts helped loads. Just added them to the cuts in the cab setting. Would you recommend putting an EQ at the end of the chain also? 

I will have to look at getting a stand in the future. Obviously I have a lot to learn with this helix but I’m going to enjoy learning. 

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21 minutes ago, mentalmorg said:

Just had a quick go before bed and those cuts helped loads. Just added them to the cuts in the cab setting. Would you recommend putting an EQ at the end of the chain also? 

I will have to look at getting a stand in the future. Obviously I have a lot to learn with this helix but I’m going to enjoy learning. 

 

Just a couple of extra checks here.  Make sure the contour switch is set to flat.  If not your low frequencies and high frequencies will end up being accentuated.

 

As far as low cuts and high cuts you can do it in the cab setting if you want or in a final EQ at the end of your chain.  I prefer using a final parametric EQ as that allows me to make final adjustments for any and all frequencies in my signal chain that need some adjustment.  All sorts of things can affect your EQ adjustments including different amps and how you have them dialed in, what kind of cabinet/IR you're using, the type of mic model and it's placement, even using a guitar with different pickups, so I wouldn't advise settling on a given fixed high or low cut.  Use your ears and adjust only as much as is necessary.  In many cases I have presets that don't even have high or low cuts depending on how I've setup the signal chain.  The main thing is don't be seduced into applying cuts globally to correct for your patches as global cuts or adjustments will be applied to ALL patches and may rob you of tone.

 

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16 minutes ago, mentalmorg said:

Just had a quick go before bed and those cuts helped loads. Just added them to the cuts in the cab setting. Would you recommend putting an EQ at the end of the chain also? 

I will have to look at getting a stand in the future. Obviously I have a lot to learn with this helix but I’m going to enjoy learning. 

Really depends on what your ears are telling you. I can usually get by with just the cuts in the cab/IR block. Occasionally for some amps I'll put another EQ before any delays/reverbs for notching out anything unpleasant or making steeper HP/LP cuts. I don't dial my LP as low as a lot of people suggest, though. Usually around 8-9kHz.

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1 hour ago, mentalmorg said:

Just had a quick go before bed and those cuts helped loads. Just added them to the cuts in the cab setting. Would you recommend putting an EQ at the end of the chain also? 

I will have to look at getting a stand in the future. Obviously I have a lot to learn with this helix but I’m going to enjoy learning. 

 

https://www.guitarcenter.com/On-Stage/SSAS7000B-Mini-Adjustable-Speaker-Stand.gc

 

This is a relatively short stand. At it's lowest setting it's about chest high (I'm 5'6") with my FRFR112 which is the same as your TS312 (just lacks the mic pre). Setting it in vertical position  gives the horn the proper horizontal dispersion.

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Yes I’m using a Les Paul traditional. Means I’m working some stupid hours at the moment still haven’t had time to have a tidy go on it yet. That site doesn’t work for me as I’m in the UK.i think I’m going to have to get my head around the EQ settings that’s for sure, understanding all the frequency types also. Coming from my Boss ME 70 it’s a bit of a step up lol 

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1 hour ago, mentalmorg said:

That’s fairly cheap too. That would resolve a few of the EQ faults then would it? Would you guys just take the 312 back and get a 10” PA instead? Or maybe the powercab? 

 

Personally, I'd probably return the 312 and go for something of higher quality with a greater ability to contour the DSP of the speaker for the application.  My personal preference would probably be a QSC CP8, or a Yamaha DBR10 which have far better reputations, customizability and sound than the Alto even though not quite as much wattage.  Both of those can be tuned for use as a floor monitor, or stand applications as well as having their own low cut filters.  Alto tends to be marketed more toward the DJ crowd whereas QSC and Yamaha are more professional live sound oriented.  The Powercab could also be a good option if you prefer to go the cabinet route, but there's some people that feel they're underpowered for some applications.

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I disagree with DD about the quality issue in terms of dependability vs price, but that's something that only time will tell. I have the Headrush FRFR312, which is just the TS312 without mic pres, and the TS210, which is a bit less boomy if that's a problem (see my comments about the stand). That said, Yamaha is ALWAYS a good PRO choice, have great warranties, and the DSP choices are nice to have. If you've got the bucks, either Yamaha or QSC are excellent speakers.

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I also disagree with DD, he definitely has a wealth of information but seems to dis on the Alto. I wonder if he’s even tried the Alto’s? 

 

This is is not meant to rip on DD, just a difference of opinion.

 

I had a used Yamaha DXR 12 and didn’t like it at all( maybe it had an issue, not sure). I couldn’t dial out the trebley sound. I sold it and bought the Alto 312 and love it.. When I first hooked it up and played I thought OK this is what I was expecting. I liked it so much that I bought the Alto 310. I have them up on those mini stands in my jam room and it sounds great.

 

If the 312 sounds to boomy or bassy, put it up on one of those stands or just adjust your settings in the Helix to dial it out

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Thanks both, I have to be honest when I demoed the 312 I also demoed the dbx10. While I thought the dbx was a little better I didn’t think it was £200 better. For what I want I think the 312 will probably be fine. I’m not gigging I’m just playing in my man cave. I just want a good sound that I can enjoy. I think if them cuts in the EQ work then I’ll stick with the 312. Just have to get some experience with the helix to dial in a good tone. Anywhere I can get some tips from? Might be a stupid question but there are no stupid questions, right?

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I don't have anything in particular against the Alto in general.  In this day and age of powered speaker design, I'm just not a fan of any speaker that doesn't provide some useable range of DSP contouring options for the various ways these speakers might be used.  To me that's the value proposition in these types of speakers so the can be easily adapted to a wider range of physical setups or for different purposes whether that be as a floor monitor, on a pole, live or recorded music, as FOH speakers or as dedicated stage monitors.  But that's the main differentiator between Alto and it's competitors and allows them to offer their speakers at a lower price.  I just think in the end it's too much of a limitation to not have that range of capabilities.

 

And I have tried them out, although not specifically the 312.  But that's just a subjective comparison and mine is no better than anyone else's when it comes to the sound as we all look for different things.

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I currently have a TS212 and a TS312 and run them in stereo. Essentially I purchased my Helix LT about 9 months ago and also picked up a 212 to give modelling a go with a modest investment. Ended up buying the 312 to give me stereo which is great. I have several great tube amps, bluesbreaker, DRRI etc. And I have to sayIt’s taken a lot of tweaking, Celestion IRS etc but I have now got a giggable rig. Still not the full tube amp experience but it is less hassle.

 

Using a low cut at about 100hz and a high cut at about 7k is a must for me. Takes away the unrealistic frequencies your not going to hear with a trad amp. Honestly thought about upgrading from the Altos to Yamaha or QSC but not sure I would get a much better sound for quite a bit more dosh. Still not sure I will switch over completely, I don’t have or have ever used in ears so I am kind of replacing my traditional back line with two Altos. Essentially it’s not much more convenient but it’s been an interesting experience. So much so I have even thought about a Fractal...

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