HELIX: Possible to run PC in backline AND FRFR112 in frontline?

[itbeme23]

Hey Everybody,

 

Backstory:

 

I’ve been a Line 6 user for the past decade. I’ve owned the Spider, Vetta, HD500X, Firehawk 1500, M13, HX Effects, and now, the Helix.  Like most of us, I wanted to consolidate my live rig (I’m in three different bands, gigging regularly), so I bought the Helix. It’s been the best and most versatile piece of gear I’ve ever owned, and I honestly couldn’t be happier with it. I’ve paired the Helix with the PowerCab 112 Plus.

 

Herein lies the issue….

 

I was stoked when I bought the PowerCab.  I thought it was going to be the perfect blend of FRFR with “amp in the room” feel. Even before doing the amount of research I would normally do with a new piece of gear, I decided to buy it.  As the reviews started coming in, I began hearing about it not being able to keep up with a full-band from a volume perspective.  I thought, “no biggie, I’ll just run it direct to the PA”, which obviously works in a gigging environment with a decent PA. Then, I experienced the lack of volume issue in a rehearsal setting with two different bands (with lollipop PA systems). I still thought, “no biggie, I’ll just add a few dB to the output level at the end of the chain”….that “worked”, but not without some noise/tone issues.

 

The final straw:

 

I gigged at a pretty well-known venue in Orange County on NYE. I’ve played there several times over the years, and I know the venue has a high-quality sound system. I’ve worked with different sound guys, and each has been pretty solid, albeit with different approaches.  My bands have always sounded good FOH, regardless who was mixing us. This particular guy was EXTREMELY knowledgeable, and great to work with.  HOWEVER, during sound check, he had me dial my Power Cab volume all the way down to about 11 o’clock.  As such, I had ZERO stage volume once the full-band was playing, and I was forced to solely rely on the lollipop house wedge for my guitar feed. I never expect much from house wedges, but he had this wedge cranked, and my guitar signal came out as a fizzy, unarticulated mess. Because he had so much guitar coming out of the wedge, I had virtually no vocal monitoring, which was heard in the FOH mix. :/

 

The lead guitarist in my bands is the techy of the bunch, where I’m more of a minimalist.  He runs a pretty elaborate IEM setup, which he feels is the “cure-all” for my problem. He and I have had this argument ad-nauseum. My position: when I have IEMs, I feel like I lose my connection to the crowd and the room, and that’s a huge deal for me. The thing I enjoy most about performing is feeling the energy of the crowd. His position: he doesn’t care much about the room, the crowd, or the stage volume because he has the “perfect mix” in his ear. I agree running IEMs provides plenty of benefits, and it probably would solve my issue… but they’re my last resort, NOT my first option.

 

The idea:

 

With the amount of connection options the Helix has, I’m sure this scenario is possible, but I was hoping somebody might be able to tell me how practical it is….since possibility and practicality don’t necessarily go hand in hand.  I want to maintain the “amp in the room” feel by having the Power Cab in the backline like a traditional guitar cab – after all, that’s why I bought it. I DON’T want to move it to the front. I’m now considering buying a Headrush FRFR-112 to use as my own DEDICATED guitar monitor, and use the house wedge as a DEDICATED vocal monitor.  

 

In a nutshell: Powercab in the backline/Headrush (for guitar) and house wedge (for vocals) in the frontline.  This seems like it would satisfy my desire for “amp in the room” in the backline, while solving the “lack of volume” issue by having high-quality, clear, dedicated guitar monitoring in the front line.

 

Questions:

 

1. Is anybody currently using this type of setup?
2. Is this (technically) the same as running the Helix in stereo (even though I don’t want a stereo signal sent FOH)?
3. With the amount of signal routing/connection options available, how would I accomplish this on the Helix?

 

I know this is a long post, but I wanted to be as descriptive as possible.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.  It’s much appreciated.

 

Cheers.

[arkieboy]

How about you use your power cab as a sidefill rather than as backline.  Not as pretty and not as rock and roll, but it means you're not pushing out your sound to the FoH and messing with the PA guy's balance.  Get an amp stand to get it to chest high and angle it back a bit so you can hear it clearly without disturbing the rest of the band too much.

 

[DunedinDragon]

I hate to tell you this, but I tend to agree with your lead guitar player.  It sounds to me like you keep attempting to fix a fundamental problem with a series of band-aids rather than address the core problem.  I don't think you necessarily have to resort to IEMs to fix the core problem which is having enough manageable stage volume at your command  while sending a decent a signal to the mixing board for a good FOH mix.  That problem's been solved many times over without all the weird permutations you're considering, but you seem to keep dismissing them because of what your "feel" you need rather than what logically solves the problem.  Here's just a few solutions that come to mind used by many people.

 

1.  Use IEM's controlled by the FOH.

2.  Use IEM's direct  from the Helix for your guitar and send a separate XLR signal to the FOH and get your vocal mix in the monitors and your guitar to the rest of the band's monitors.

3.  Trade in your Powercab for a more capable stage speaker and send a separate XLR signal to the FOH.  Not a Headrush, but a quality unit with plenty of clean headroom and some viable DSP contouring options.  You spent serious money on a premium modeler, but are pinching pennies on the system it uses to produce the sound.  That doesn't make sense.  The alternatives here are abundant.  There are some great premium quality FRFR speakers with clean high powered outputs with plenty of headroom like the QSC K.2 series, or the Yamaha DXR series, or if you insist on having a cabinet there are the Friedman units and many others.  Any of these can be used in the backline to give you a more traditional feel on stage and provide a good stage mix for the rest of the band.

 

The fact is, there are TONS of us out here that have found simple, direct solutions to the problem you're citing without jumping through hoops.  You're the one placing arbitrary limitations on what you "feel" you need.  Just fix the problem directly so you can focus on playing.

[codamedia]

I'm not trying to sound rude or harsh, but there are so many contradictions in the opening post that I don't know where to begin. 

• You say that the Power Cab can't keep up but the sound man had you turn it down to 11:00 (less than half). That means it was too loud. Try re-positioning it to hit your ears instead of the techs (and subsequently the crowds). 
• You said the tech had your guitar in the wedge so loud that you couldn't hear the vocal. NO - you had the guitar in the wedge so loud that you couldn't hear the vocal. How much you want is your choice... just ask the tech to turn it down!  
• You said the club had "high quality gear" but you said you don't expect much from the wedge, and that your guitar "came out as a fizzy, articulated mess" through the wedge. If the gear is indeed quality then the wedge should be able to handle a MIX of your choice. Either the gear is not as good as you suggest it is, or your tones are not optimized yet... and the wedge it just re-producing what it is fed. 
• You don't like IEM's because of the disconnect from the crowd. You don't have to be isolated if you don't want to be. Everyone I know that uses IEM's uses them with an ambient mic to offset that problem. You may want to look into that.

Based on all of that, these are the first few things I would try, with the gear you already own.

• Re-position the Power Cab so you can hear it better. Forget the rock pose of putting it behind you and blasting it past your knees into the faces of the crowd and tech. Angle it toward you so you can hear it. It can still sit behind you if you want, but by directing it upward you will hear it better...and subsequently not turn it up as loud. 
• The by product of pointing it upward is that you will hear the tone directly. That will help you dial in the tones the way the tech and crowd will hear them from the PA. You will produce tones that work universally, not just in the Power Cab blasting past your knees which often results in a shrill/fizzy tone when in it's direct path. (EG: the "fizzy, articulated mess" you heard in the wedge).

 

That's my take on it. If I have misunderstood anything said in the opening post I apologize.

 

To answer this question directly.... 

"HELIX: Possible to run PC in backline AND FRFR112 in frontline?"

Yes you can do that.... but you shouldn't have to! 

 

 

[SteveFrance]

Hi

I've got this configuration but haven't played in live yet.

Do you have allready the "amp in the room" you are looking for (at home or at gigging) ?

It's been  a long way to obtain what i wanted but i think i approach to my goal....

 

Another question, how  do you use the PC+ ? Do you use it like a Frfr or do you use the speaker models ?

Personnaly,  i always use the PC tilt back, the sound is very directionnal, if you are not in the axe, you won't have the real  sound projected. 

For your volume probleme,  there are many set up. Of course, the first one is the main knob (there's no influence on the FOH), you can turn it up with no incidence.

The second is the dB parameter per input (.in the menu, house icon, you can't set the link L6 )

The last one if you work with model speaker is to press the big knob to access at the speaker menu, there's another dB parameter.

You'll have enough noise for a backline. 

The last thing,  i was estonished but the high and low cut have an incidence on what you are hearing (it wouldn't on the speaker models), i've programmed a low cut at 70Hz and the high at 6000Hz.

Tschuss

[itbeme23]

First of all, I’d like to thank all of you for taking the time to respond.

 

I gotta admit…I’m pretty disappointed at the tone conveyed through a couple of these posts.  It’s absolutely remarkable (not in an endearing way) how people come across over an internet forum, with the responses ranging from mildly passive-aggressive to blatant douchebaggery, and a couple of helpful responses in between. Overall, the level of pretentiousness and condescension is extremely off-putting.  I feel like I have a good handle on my Line 6 gear. I’ve always taken the time to learn it as well as I can, and I don’t have any problems asking for help when I need it. That’s exactly what I did here.  I can only imagine how a complete noob would feel if he/she got the kind of responses found in this thread.  Forums are supposed to be a place to bounce ideas off each other and a source of help, rather than bashing people.

 

I think some of you may have severely overestimated the “elaborateness” of my idea. LOL. Forgive me, but I’m extremely confused when I see exaggerated phrases like “jumping through hoops” or “weird permutations” .  This isn’t a reinvention of the wheel. I’m not suggesting the daisy-chaining of multiple PCs to be surrounded by a “wall of sound”, nor am I talking about putting PCs on either side of the stage to run in stereo and create a headache for the sound guy. In my humble opinion, this isn’t nearly as complicated as it’s being made out to be.  In my head, the only thing the Headrush would be substituting for is ONE house wedge (for guitar monitoring)…that’s it. Am I guilty of SUCH a massive oversimplification?

 

I’ve been a gigging musician for a long time, guys….just as you probably have. That’s why the condescending tone is especially annoying. We as guitarists (and musicians in general) talk about “feel” all the time. When we find that perfect guitar tone, we always talk about how good it “feels”, right? So, I’m struggling to figure out why my preference/desire for being able to “feel” the sound from the PC in the backline is being pissed on.  The PC was marketed as an “amp in the room”, right? An amp in the room is conventionally found in the backline, right?  So why is it so egregious for me to want to keep it there?   Using the PC as a sidefill (rather than backline), or propping it on an amp stand (which I already own) could fix the issue. I’m well aware of this, just as I’m well-aware that using IEMs could solve the issue altogether. All of those solutions are viable and reasonable…not disputing that. I’m just saying those aren’t my preferred solutions, which is why I was trying to get feedback on a POSSIBLE alternative.  

 

The problem with most forums nowadays (it’s not only specific to this forum), is the fact that people feel the need to project/defend their own positions and lollipop on the ideas/opinions of others.  The majority of the responses in this post were not really about answering my original question (which is kind of irrelevant now), much less how one would accomplish the idea.  Instead, more time was spent  telling me how wrong I was for even having the idea in the first place! LOL.  My question wasn’t “how many people think this is an awesome idea?”  My question was regarding the POSSIBLITY of the idea, and how it might be accomplished. That’s the problem.  Everybody is in such a hurry to find a discrepancy or flaw in an OP, so they can turn around and tell somebody else how ridiculous they are for having thought that deviates from the norm (e.g. the dude who says there are so many “contradictions” in my post he didn’t know where to begin”). Instead of asking questions for clarification, most people (this gentleman included) make suggestions/criticisms on a possible unclear understanding of the original post.  Personally, I’m absolutely okay with clarifying my position(s), if I’m unclear, or if I’ve given misinformation (god forbid somebody makes a mistake on an internet forum post).  I’m always in favor of providing additional context if it means a better understanding and more productive exchange of ideas. Simply put: clarification > assumption in terms of effective communication, ‘specially over the interweb. After taking a crap on my entire post, I did like how the guy finally answered the original question, though. I thought that was a nice touch.  Gotta love the internet….

 

For real....despite our obvious differences in opinions/communication approaches, I appreciate the suggestions.

 

Peace!

 

Mods: feel free to close this thread. 

 

 

[codamedia]

2 hours ago, itbeme23 said:

(e.g. the dude who says there are so many “contradictions” in my post he didn’t know where to begin”). Instead of asking questions for clarification, most people (this gentleman included) make suggestions/criticisms on a possible unclear understanding of the original post.  

 

That would be me... sorry if I offended you, that's not my style! 

It's really difficult to convey intention and intent in a forum post - especially when the forum doesn't have working emoticons to use :) 

 

I was trying to help, not belittle. I'm sorry it came across as the latter. 

[SteveFrance]

11 hours ago, itbeme23 said:

 

The problem with most forums nowadays (it’s not only specific to this forum), is the fact that people feel the need to project/defend their own positions and lollipop on the ideas/opinions of others.  The majority of the responses in this post were not really about answering my original question (which is kind of irrelevant now), much less how one would accomplish the idea.  Instead, more time was spent  telling me how wrong I was for even having the idea in the first place! LOL. 

 

Another problem is that some OPs stand on the more offensed posts and seem not to read the help and try solutions that can be brought.

I thought you were having the same matters i had at fisrt.

 

If i've well understood your needs ;  you haven't enough volume on stage (and you don't want an IEM's solution).

Before going on the front FRFR solution (that can be done ((easily)) ;

 

Have you tried to tweak parameters i talked about to improve your volume (and one more time, tilt back the PC+ is limit a must) ?????

 

I know that the advertissement tells the PC delivers amp in the room feels but it has to be tweaked (and the helix parameters too (furthermore following the guitar)).....

It's not really a real combo and a plug and play....

[brue58ski]

Just out of curiosity and not to be flippant but, since it sounds like you had an amp/cab before, I'm assuming was mic'd, how did you solve the issue in that instance? If I understood you correctly, it sounds like essentially the same situation. Sound coming out of the cab for yourself and a mic cable going to the FOH for the audience. In one instance, the microphone on the cab is what's going down the cable, in another the mic level XLR output of your Helix. Am I missing something? Was the cab bigger?

[cruisinon2]

14 hours ago, itbeme23 said:

...blatant douchebaggery...

 

 

 

 

This would make a great punk band album title...;)

[codamedia]

3 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

This would make a great punk band album title...;)

 

... and in this thread I'd be the frontman of that band - LOL! 

[gunpointmetal]

IEM with two side-stage condenser mics. You can hear the stage (at a manageable level), you can hear the crowd/room (at a manageable level) and you can get your own mix on top of it. Both of my bands are running Behringer XR18 mixers with everyone on their own IEM mix that they can control from an app on their phones. Sound guys are stoked because we can set our stage volumes however they want, we're stoked because we can hear everything (including the room) and set our own levels, and we're double-stoked because when we go someplace with a crap engineer, we just give him the stereo out from the mixer and do it ourselves. 

 

But, you can absolutely run a "guitar only" monitor if you want to. If you're using the speaker modeling in the PowerCab you'd have to create a separate chain with an IR for your guitar wedge, or daisychain off the back of the PowerCab to the wedge, then daisy-chain off the wedge to FOH. If a knowledgeable sound guy is having you turn down that low, I'm guessing the problem isn't that the PowerCab can't keep up, its that you have it placed poorly to give you what you need to hear. Half the guitarists I see don't even know what they're FOH tone sounds like because all they hear is what their cab is doing from 10' away and 3-4' off-axis compared to the sound guy's microphone which is right on the grill in front of the speaker. If your guitar sounded like a fizzy mess in the wedge, that's probably what you were sending the sound guy to work with in the first place. That's not intended to be a lollipop, either. I've literally had this discussion with guys 30 years older than me who have been playing since before I was born, and a surprising amount of them never really thought much about where the microphone was going to send their sound out front, just what it sounded like where they were standing. I've watched several people even recently bend down to adjust a pedal, hear what their guitar sounds like "in the beam" and adjust the high end, then stand up, walk back to the amp, and RE ADJUST the high end back up at the amp.

[itbeme23]

15 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

That would be me... sorry if I offended you, that's not my style! 

It's really difficult to convey intention and intent in a forum post - especially when the forum doesn't have working emoticons to use :) 

 

I was trying to help, not belittle. I'm sorry it came across as the latter. 

Didn't expect it, but I sincerely appreciate the apology.  Honestly, I didn't mean to single you out....I was pointing to an overall, recurring theme in lot of forums.  It's true - tone is very difficult to interpret across text messages/forum posts. 

 

Once again, thanks for the apology.

6 hours ago, SteveFrance said:

 

Another problem is that some OPs stand on the more offensed posts and seem not to read the help and try solutions that can be brought.

I thought you were having the same matters i had at fisrt.

 

If i've well understood your needs ;  you haven't enough volume on stage (and you don't want an IEM's solution).

Before going on the front FRFR solution (that can be done ((easily)) ;

 

Have you tried to tweak parameters i talked about to improve your volume (and one more time, tilt back the PC+ is limit a must) ?????

 

I know that the advertissement tells the PC delivers amp in the room feels but it has to be tweaked (and the helix parameters too (furthermore following the guitar)).....

It's not really a real combo and a plug and play....

Agreed. Sometimes it's tough to sift through the BS to find the positives. There were a couple guys here who tried to provide constructive, helpful suggestions, and I attempted to acknowledge that. Even the others had some insight, but it's hard to appreciate that insight when it's thinly-veiled with condescension. That was the main point of my response.

 

Correct. My issue was a lack of volume coming from the backline. Even since my original post, I've been doing a lot of research on how to rectify this issue using the parameters available on the Helix/PC. I haven't got to try them out yet, but I'm sure some of them could help.  Even something as simple as the PC placement on stage likely could've helped my situation. I have to remember that even though the PC is like an "amp in the room", certain concessions/adjustments need to be made. 

3 hours ago, brue58ski said:

Just out of curiosity and not to be flippant but, since it sounds like you had an amp/cab before, I'm assuming was mic'd, how did you solve the issue in that instance? If I understood you correctly, it sounds like essentially the same situation. Sound coming out of the cab for yourself and a mic cable going to the FOH for the audience. In one instance, the microphone on the cab is what's going down the cable, in another the mic level XLR output of your Helix. Am I missing something? Was the cab bigger?

Interesting point, actually. I was just thinking about this myself, and I think the explanation is simple enough. I was running a Blackstar 2x12  150 watt Tube Combo, and never had issues with on-stage volume.  Even when the sound guys would tell me to lower the amp volume, I would still have plenty of volume coming from the backline, coupled with a bit of guitar coming through the front wedge. I think we can all agree that while the PC can get plenty loud on its own, I don't think it'll compete with the volume of a tube amp. With the Blackstar, I never raised the volume above 9 o'clock without shaking the walls. 9 o'clock on the PC is what I use for bedroom practice. 

2 hours ago, gunpointmetal said:

IEM with two side-stage condenser mics. You can hear the stage (at a manageable level), you can hear the crowd/room (at a manageable level) and you can get your own mix on top of it. Both of my bands are running Behringer XR18 mixers with everyone on their own IEM mix that they can control from an app on their phones. Sound guys are stoked because we can set our stage volumes however they want, we're stoked because we can hear everything (including the room) and set our own levels, and we're double-stoked because when we go someplace with a crap engineer, we just give him the stereo out from the mixer and do it ourselves. 

 

But, you can absolutely run a "guitar only" monitor if you want to. If you're using the speaker modeling in the PowerCab you'd have to create a separate chain with an IR for your guitar wedge, or daisychain off the back of the PowerCab to the wedge, then daisy-chain off the wedge to FOH. If a knowledgeable sound guy is having you turn down that low, I'm guessing the problem isn't that the PowerCab can't keep up, its that you have it placed poorly to give you what you need to hear. Half the guitarists I see don't even know what they're FOH tone sounds like because all they hear is what their cab is doing from 10' away and 3-4' off-axis compared to the sound guy's microphone which is right on the grill in front of the speaker. If your guitar sounded like a fizzy mess in the wedge, that's probably what you were sending the sound guy to work with in the first place. That's not intended to be a lollipop, either. I've literally had this discussion with guys 30 years older than me who have been playing since before I was born, and a surprising amount of them never really thought much about where the microphone was going to send their sound out front, just what it sounded like where they were standing. I've watched several people even recently bend down to adjust a pedal, hear what their guitar sounds like "in the beam" and adjust the high end, then stand up, walk back to the amp, and RE ADJUST the high end back up at the amp.

If I end up going with IEMs, I'll end up going the "side-stage mic" route. I think that might be the way I won't feel disconnected from the crowd. My lead guitarist (I call him "Mr. Wizard...LOL), uses a similar setup.  He controls the band's IEM mix through an app on his iPad, and everybody has the option to tweak to their liking if they want. Although I think my lead guitarist tends to care more about what he hears in his ears rather than what comes out FOH. Haha.

 

The second part of your post is definitely the most helpful so far (THANKS).  I don't utilize any of the speaker modeling on the PC. Most of my patches are utilizing the same IR in the Helix (for consistency's sake), then I run them to the PC in "Flat" mode.  I haven't done much testing with the speaker models inside the PC, although I've been reading through threads on TGP that say they're the real deal. With that said, since I'm strictly running the PC in "Flat" mode (right now), would I still need to create a separate chain in the patch? If not, then would I just daisy-chain from the PC to the wedge, and call it good? Would I be getting the "same" tone coming out of both units (PC and Headrush)?  In a perfect world, that's what I'd be looking for. 

 

I hear what you're saying about on-stage vs. FOH tone. With my tube amp, I always had the sound guy mic it for FOH. Even though I had the option to go direct, I always felt more comfortable with a good mic. With the Helix, I've always gone direct, since that's kind of what it's made for. LOL. (although I did have an engineer recently who decided to use the direct signal from the Helix AND mic the PC). I've been using the PC strictly as an on-stage "monitor" in the backline. I think PC placement is a big factor in what I'm experiencing. I have to realize I can't sit the PC back 8-10 feet away like my tube combo.  It won't perform the same. 

 

I'm pretty good with my patches. I've been using L6 products for a long time, so I have a good understanding of how to build my patches, and honestly, I'm always happy with my tone coming out of FOH. Some gigs I'm more happy than others, but for the most part, I'm really satisfied.  I think the easiest way to put it is I want to BALANCE the volume on-stage, ideally by keeping the PC in the backline (as it's intended) at a reasonable volume, and having a guitar monitor for myself. The bonus result would be a dedicated vocal monitor from the house, since I'm essentially providing my own guitar monitor. 

 

 

 

[gunpointmetal]

53 minutes ago, itbeme23 said:

I've been using the PC strictly as an on-stage "monitor" in the backline. I think PC placement is a big factor in what I'm experiencing. I have to realize I can't sit the PC back 8-10 feet away like my tube combo.  It won't perform the same. 

 

I'm pretty good with my patches. I've been using L6 products for a long time, so I have a good understanding of how to build my patches, and honestly, I'm always happy with my tone coming out of FOH. Some gigs I'm more happy than others, but for the most part, I'm really satisfied.  I think the easiest way to put it is I want to BALANCE the volume on-stage, ideally by keeping the PC in the backline (as it's intended) at a reasonable volume, and having a guitar monitor for myself. The bonus result would be a dedicated vocal monitor from the house, since I'm essentially providing my own guitar monitor. 

You could always try using the speaker modeling in the PC if you like the stage look and don't want to worry about placement, since I have a feeling the flat mode will project a little different than the modeled modes, especially as far as high-end/cut. Might be something to take into consideration and get closer to the traditional cab on stage sound/feel.

[itbeme23]

38 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

You could always try using the speaker modeling in the PC if you like the stage look and don't want to worry about placement, since I have a feeling the flat mode will project a little different than the modeled modes, especially as far as high-end/cut. Might be something to take into consideration and get closer to the traditional cab on stage sound/feel.

That's a good point, and kind of goes along with what I've read on TGP.  One of the power users over there says that using the speaker models on the PC was a game-changer for him. I think the main reasoning behind that is because of the IR testing/tweaking, which can get tedious and overwhelming.  That's the main reason I've stuck to the same IR across most of my patches.  Again, aside from when I first un-boxed the PC, I don't think I've played around with the speaker models much. Might be something to try this weekend.  

 

As far as my original idea, if I stick with running the PC in "flat" mode, would I then just run an XLR out from the PC to Headrush? And in doing that, would the tone remain consistent(ish) between both units? If that's the case, it's an easy-to-implement solution to my issue, and at the very least, I can get a decent quality monitor out of it. What I don't want to do is substitute endless IR testing/tweaking for endless speaker testing/tweaking. 

 

Thoughts?

[gunpointmetal]

I would think whatever goes in to the PC in flat mode would be what would come out. It wouldn't make much sense to add speaker/cab modeling in that setup from a design standpoint. I'm not familiar with the HR, but I'm guessing that also has a pass-through output, so you could probably run it either way. Helix->HR->PC or Helix->PC->HR and it "should" sound the same or really close, although the HR and the PC probably sound a little different since one is coaxial and the other is separate horn/woofer. I just don't see flat mode behaving the same way as a guitar speaker, so the modeled speaker version might be more "amp-like". You could always tap off the Helix with a send before your IR to the PC and use the speaker modeling for on-stage sounds and use your carefully-selected IR/Direct tone for the HR and FOH, too.