Delays on HX Stomp sound way too dark for me

[pacobarreras]

I’m having big personal issues with the sound of these delays.  They sound way too dark.  I run my rig in wet/dry/wet fashion.  I’m not using the modelling at all in this setup, only using the stom for pitch shift and delay but the delays just sound way too dark for this. Used dual delays mostly to be able to use 2 different delays for the wet/dry/wet.  I’ve been trying to correct that darkness with low cut on the dual delay, it helped a little, but, I still dont buy it.  Does anyone know if this low cur affects only the delay? Or the mixed signal? Would be good to know.  The other delay I tried was the transistor tape, I set a parallel path to be able to use 2 of them in stereo and I’m getting that same darkness in it.  This time I tried correcting it with an EQ after the delay but it got too thin EQing that out since I’m also EQing it out of my whole mixed signal coming throuhg.  

 

I’m extremely disappointed with this, anybody else finding these delays dark? Could it be my dry/wet setup?  I’m comparing it to my Roland SDE 3000, Empress echo system, and Eventide H9, so, I’m comparing it to a couple of beasts.

 

i’d like to know if anyone else is finding these too dark, or maybe this isn’t a good stomp for me and my rig.

[cruisinon2]

Seems odd... if I mess with anything besides the mix and feedback, it's usually chopping off some of the high end. 

[DunedinDragon]

I can honestly say that of all the remarks and feedback I've seen on the Helix delays over the last 3 years this is the very first time for this one.  I'm not even sure I know what a "too dark" delay would sound like.  Maybe it is something related to the dry/wet setup...

 

[phil_m]

It sure seems like something isn’t right if you think the Stomp’s delay are dark compared to the Echosystem... I owned the Echosystem, and I certainly would not have considered it a bright sounding delay. The Transistor Tape model is a bit darker because it’s a tape echo, but the Dual Delay certainly shouldn’t be. You might want to try the Vintage Digital model. With the sample rate and bit depth parameters all the way up, it’s actually one of the most pristine delays in the Helix.

 

As far as the Dual Delay, I recorded this a few years ago, and all the delays are the Dual Delay.

 

 

[Kilrahi]

My understanding is if the cuts are on the effects block then they impact only the delay's signal, not the dry part. I've never had to get that nitty gritty though. Did you try tweaking the mix setting?  It's possible the delays you're used to had a different mix between the wet and dry signal.

 

Stomp chains aren't incredibly complex, but it still might be helpful if you  could upload it and share it with us. I can fiddle around with my Stomp tonight and see if it gives me any brainstorms to your problem . . . I use the delays all the time and think they're great. To me, hell . . . I've never run into what I'd call a "dark" delay. To me all the delays I've ever used are just an amalgamation of the original signal - if it's dark the delay is dark - if it's bright the delay is bright.

 

 

[pacobarreras]

1 hour ago, phil_m said:

It sure seems like something isn’t right if you think the Stomp’s delay are dark compared to the Echosystem... I owned the Echosystem, and I certainly would not have considered it a bright sounding delay. The Transistor Tape model is a bit darker because it’s a tape echo, but the Dual Delay certainly shouldn’t be. You might want to try the Vintage Digital model. With the sample rate and bit depth parameters all the way up, it’s actually one of the most pristine delays in the Helix.

 

As far as the Dual Delay, I recorded this a few years ago, and all the delays are the Dual Delay.

 

 

Interesting, and thank you for your reply.  What do you mean all the delays are dual delay? 

[pacobarreras]

Thank you everyone for your replies, all seem useful, I’ll try and upload msybe a sound sample or my settings see if you guys find something off with your better experience with the stomp.

[pacobarreras]

Just for better understanding of my rig, I’ll explain the signal path, I’m thinking this might be an issue.

 

guitar-(pedalboard, which consists of a crybaby wah, polytune 3 buffered an mxr phase 95 and an mxr micro flanger then a final buffer)

 

That goes into my Bray 4550 amp head (if you’re not familiar with the Bray, it’s basically a supped up handwored Marshall Plexi sounds incredible, I highly recommend it wew.davidbrayamps.com) no effects loop. The amp’s speaker out goes into the dummy load which splits the signal through to speaker (dry central cabinet) the other is fed to whichever FX unit I wish to process the signal, in this case the Helix. 

 

As per the Helix, I’m plugging it itno the input of the unit (perhaps I should use the FX return?) and I’m not using any modelling obviously, basically using it as a multieffects unit.  Stereo outputs obviously feed my Matrix 800 FX dual power amp which feeds the Left/Right (wet) cabs.

[phil_m]

50 minutes ago, pacobarreras said:

Interesting, and thank you for your reply.  What do you mean all the delays are dual delay?

 

I mean all the delays in the recording are from the Dual Delay model.

[Kilrahi]

59 minutes ago, pacobarreras said:

Just for better understanding of my rig, I’ll explain the signal path, I’m thinking this might be an issue.

 

guitar-(pedalboard, which consists of a crybaby wah, polytune 3 buffered an mxr phase 95 and an mxr micro flanger then a final buffer)

 

That goes into my Bray 4550 amp head (if you’re not familiar with the Bray, it’s basically a supped up handwored Marshall Plexi sounds incredible, I highly recommend it wew.davidbrayamps.com) no effects loop. The amp’s speaker out goes into the dummy load which splits the signal through to speaker (dry central cabinet) the other is fed to whichever FX unit I wish to process the signal, in this case the Helix. 

 

As per the Helix, I’m plugging it itno the input of the unit (perhaps I should use the FX return?) and I’m not using any modelling obviously, basically using it as a multieffects unit.  Stereo outputs obviously feed my Matrix 800 FX dual power amp which feeds the Left/Right (wet) cabs.

 

Sounds like a pretty cool setup. I hadn't heard of the Bray 4550 but after looking it up it seems pretty cool.

 

I'm trying to make sure I understand your signal chain. I think I do, but the dark delay is baffling enough that I feel I'm missing something.

 

The part that has my brain wondering if it's an issue is the input vs. FX return part you mention. Typically, if you're running HX for purely wet stuff then you want that in the FX return, not the guitar in because if you put it in the guitar in it gets colored by the preamp which would lead to a darker tone.  Honestly though, based on the setup you describe I'd almost say skip messing with your amp, either guitar in OR FX, and instead go straight to the Matrix 800 dual power amp and see if you like how that sounds (So it would be guitar > pedalboard > amp input > dummy load > branch off to speaker/dry & Stomp > Stomp in to Matrix 800 FX).

 

You wondered about it too. I'd at least try it before moving on to another area.

 

 

[Kilrahi]

I did a big long post with a whole lot of alternate suggestions for signal paths, but in the end I nuked it because I just have found over the years people's signal chains are kind of a sacred thing.

 

My main point was just that the Stomp is so powerful as an IO device that I'd make sure you're taking full advantage of that since the more simplicity you can add while doing the same thing, the less likely there is for mistakes.

 

For example, there is no reason why your Stomp couldn't take the place of your dummy load using dual signal paths. Make sure the line level vs. instrument level stuff is setup correct and see how you like it.

 

You could also do this instead, and I think it would preserve exactly what you're trying to do, but simpler (again, skipping the dummy load):

 

1. Guitar in to pedalboard >>>> Pedalboard into Stomp >>>> Split Paths A/B (Because for some frustrating reason Line 6 won't let you create a blank path - which they should - you HAVE to put something there to have a split path so just put a low DSP EQ and just leave it off if you want for path A - path B has the delays that you are trying to use for the Stomp)

2. Path A exits out main left into Bray 4550 Amp which then goes straight into dry cabinet.

3. Path B exits out TRS Y cable into Matrix 800 FX.

 

[pacobarreras]

Well the dummy load is necessary because it’s receiving the speaker out of the amp, unless the stomp can match that amp’s impedance, which I seriously doubt.  Yes, the dummy load also adjusts the signal for line level for the stomp.

 

funny thing is, I tried a different setup using the stomp’s modelling and putting it through the effects return of an amp then my regular wet/dry/wet and they are not dark using the modelling amps, I’m guessing they’re designed for that.

 

i dunno what to do, I really dont like this.

[pacobarreras]

7 hours ago, Kilrahi said:

 

Sounds like a pretty cool setup. I hadn't heard of the Bray 4550 but after looking it up it seems pretty cool.

 

I'm trying to make sure I understand your signal chain. I think I do, but the dark delay is baffling enough that I feel I'm missing something.

 

The part that has my brain wondering if it's an issue is the input vs. FX return part you mention. Typically, if you're running HX for purely wet stuff then you want that in the FX return, not the guitar in because if you put it in the guitar in it gets colored by the preamp which would lead to a darker tone.  Honestly though, based on the setup you describe I'd almost say skip messing with your amp, either guitar in OR FX, and instead go straight to the Matrix 800 dual power amp and see if you like how that sounds (So it would be guitar > pedalboard > amp input > dummy load > branch off to speaker/dry & Stomp > Stomp in to Matrix 800 FX).

 

You wondered about it too. I'd at least try it before moving on to another area.

 

 

That’s a good idea, yea, I thought of it.  So I’d have to tell the stomp that the input will be the FX return maybe?

[pacobarreras]

7 hours ago, Kilrahi said:

 

Sounds like a pretty cool setup. I hadn't heard of the Bray 4550 but after looking it up it seems pretty cool.

 

I'm trying to make sure I understand your signal chain. I think I do, but the dark delay is baffling enough that I feel I'm missing something.

 

The part that has my brain wondering if it's an issue is the input vs. FX return part you mention. Typically, if you're running HX for purely wet stuff then you want that in the FX return, not the guitar in because if you put it in the guitar in it gets colored by the preamp which would lead to a darker tone.  Honestly though, based on the setup you describe I'd almost say skip messing with your amp, either guitar in OR FX, and instead go straight to the Matrix 800 dual power amp and see if you like how that sounds (So it would be guitar > pedalboard > amp input > dummy load > branch off to speaker/dry & Stomp > Stomp in to Matrix 800 FX).

 

You wondered about it too. I'd at least try it before moving on to another area.

 

 

And I think you got it, cys I tried a different signal pach using the modelling, then out to the amp, back into the stomp’s fx return and it wasn’t getting colored like you well said

[pacobarreras]

18 hours ago, Kilrahi said:

I did a big long post with a whole lot of alternate suggestions for signal paths, but in the end I nuked it because I just have found over the years people's signal chains are kind of a sacred thing.

 

My main point was just that the Stomp is so powerful as an IO device that I'd make sure you're taking full advantage of that since the more simplicity you can add while doing the same thing, the less likely there is for mistakes.

 

For example, there is no reason why your Stomp couldn't take the place of your dummy load using dual signal paths. Make sure the line level vs. instrument level stuff is setup correct and see how you like it.

 

You could also do this instead, and I think it would preserve exactly what you're trying to do, but simpler (again, skipping the dummy load):

 

1. Guitar in to pedalboard >>>> Pedalboard into Stomp >>>> Split Paths A/B (Because for some frustrating reason Line 6 won't let you create a blank path - which they should - you HAVE to put something there to have a split path so just put a low DSP EQ and just leave it off if you want for path A - path B has the delays that you are trying to use for the Stomp)

2. Path A exits out main left into Bray 4550 Amp which then goes straight into dry cabinet.

3. Path B exits out TRS Y cable into Matrix 800 FX.

 

Oh I see the path you’re saying, only thing is I’d be sending a digital signal into the Bray,  dont think I like that, plus the Bray is pretty problematic with plugging stuff ahead of it, even more so plugging something ahead of it, then behind it, I’m sure I’d get a ground loop.  Last time I tried plugging it ahead like that I got a horrible squealing noize.  This thing has no boards, or filters, or anything, it literally is an old handwired Plexi, but I understabd your idea. Interesting wet/dry/wet solution.