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shawnt113

New FW update coming but....

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I’ve read about the new Helix update and am looking forward to it but I really wish Helix would take a look and work on the overall realism of the processing (and more detailed work on certain amp models). I’ve always enjoyed Line 6 effects, with the exception of most of the drives, (with the Helix the drives are quite a bit better) but the amp sims still need work. Compared to my Axe FX (II) there’s still some things missing. Clarity, depth/dimension and maybe gain structure which may relate back to the former. My AF2 while still isn’t 100% on being as “3 Dimensional” as the real deal, I’d say it’s 90-95% or greater the way there. The Helix just isn’t there. 

 

Feature wise, the ability to swap power tube types would be awesome (especially if a EL34/6L6 combo could happen). A bass cut to the amp input would be cool as would the ability to tweak the drive pedals a bit, like taming the mid honk of a tube screamer, pulling back the gain of the DS 1, or tweaking the OCD to not be as tight/focused/compressed sounding.  I know these features would be less “realistic” but I think would be welcome.

 

As far as additions, I would LOVE to have the mighty Mesa Mark II C+, Silver Jubilee and Bogner Ecstasy. I  would not be hurt if another plexi made its way in the mix.

 

I know opinions are subjective, and I really dig using my Helix, convenience wise it’s amazing and because of that it gets 3-4 times the use of my FAS, but it’s just that when I go back to the Axe FX, I remember that the Helix needs improvement.

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The thing is that expectations play a huge part in these sorts of things. If you play something and expect it to sound a certain way, that is often what you'll hear. It's called confirmation bias. Really, the only proper way to do this sort of comparison is a true blind test, and that's darn near impossible to do on your own. I've heard clips comparing real amp to the Line 6 modeled ones, and they get very, very close. When Line 6 had the "Helix Challenge" up on their site, 50% of the people guessed which was the real amp and which wasn't... That's basically what you're looking for in a modeling scenario - the guess rate is the same as chance.

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I’ve never needed to have amp models sound exactly like their real-world counterparts....just get me close enough and provide a quality model and I’m happy. 

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@Phil- you’re  not wrong about confirmation bias and how it plays into our expectations.

 

 

@Kevin- I understand what you’re saying, I think we’d both agree we’d rather have killer tone over accuracy (though there are times I just want dead accuracy). To me getting the clarity (note separation) the gain structures and the dimension of real amps goes a long way to the quality tone that I am chasing.

 

thanks guys for discussing this with me!

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I'm always skeptical when people use verbiage such as "3 dimensional" to define sound, particularly as it relates to an amp model since only the output device could even possibly control such a thing because that's the only place where three dimensions come into play.  There is no such thing as 3D circuitry.  But that's where confirmation bias comes into play.  If you're forced to define the difference somehow, then using a term that's subjectively meaningless would be the best way to do it.  Kind of the same thing as "warmth".

Personally this isn't one of those things I ever pay much attention to.  Modeling isn't subjective.  It's not even an art.  It's simply a procedural process of measuring output differences in a circuit given an input signal and emulating that same behavior through mathematical operations on the output signal.  All very measurable, quantifiable and non-subjective.  Subjectivity comes into play once you begin to combine the components into a signal chain and route it to a specific output device.  All of that really depends on the user, his skills and his decisions, not the machine.

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I think the real deal on this is using a smaller tube amp that you really like into a TwoNotes Torpedo and playing & recording through that, doubt you'll need anything else having Helix for effects or some VST effects if you're into that, now I'm with the Helix but yeah as soon as I can that's what I'm going to do.

 

The Helix needs a ton of work to get a huge sound from it, with the stock cabs specially, I tried one or two times by reamping together while listening to the mix and it's just wasn't happening, you can show me any clip or video of someone getting a good tone with them, but it's still not as good as I want it to be. It's a lot of personal preference I guess, there's a difference between a good YouTube metal tone and a guitar tone that will make you lose your mind while listening to a song.

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43 minutes ago, vstrattomusic said:

The Helix needs a ton of work to get a huge sound from it, with the stock cabs specially, I tried one or two times by reamping together while listening to the mix and it's just wasn't happening, you can show me any clip or video of someone getting a good tone with them, but it's still not as good as I want it to be. It's a lot of personal preference I guess, there's a difference between a good YouTube metal tone and a guitar tone that will make you lose your mind while listening to a song.

You're correct in saying it is personal preference.  Everything is.....but to say you can't get a HUGE sound out of the Helix is just incorrect.  I get HUGE sounds no matter which guitar I use and, while I own some IR's, I primarily use only stock cabs. 

I'm not trying to be combative but I'd say you're doing something wrong if you can't get huge sounds out of your unit.  And I agree with Phil_M about the "Helix challenge" and "confirmation bias".  I get complimented all the time on how my sound is exactly like the recording which is very important when you're playing cover tunes in church or if you're playing cover tunes anywhere.  The Helix is extremely authentic and huge sounds are no problem.     

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I sympathize with your concerns, but ultimately this is a challenging thing for Line 6 to consider, because if they choose to tweak it to get all the Axe FX users happier they'll lollipop off the Line 6 people like myself who think the Helix is better.

 

Tough call.

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3 hours ago, shawnt113 said:

As far as additions, I would LOVE to have the mighty Mesa Mark II C+, Silver Jubilee and Bogner Ecstasy. 

 

Well I'm with you on the Mark IIc+ and Ecstasy. Of all the amps I've owned, those were the two best ones and I deeply regret having parted with them. Still, I'm not sure I'd be using them much these days since I've gotten rather attached to my Helix. But if they could get close to realistic models (with the various tone shaping options each had), I'd be in ecstasy (pun intended)!

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26 minutes ago, RD1967 said:

You're correct in saying it is personal preference.  Everything is.....but to say you can't get a HUGE sound out of the Helix is just incorrect.  I get HUGE sounds no matter which guitar I use and, while I own some IR's, I primarily use only stock cabs. 

I'm not trying to be combative but I'd say you're doing something wrong if you can't get huge sounds out of your unit.  And I agree with Phil_M about the "Helix challenge" and "confirmation bias".  I get complimented all the time on how my sound is exactly like the recording which is very important when you're playing cover tunes in church or if you're playing cover tunes anywhere.  The Helix is extremely authentic and huge sounds are no problem.     

 

Not saying you can't, but it takes work, especially with the stock cabs, I make a patch with stock cabs, then copy/paste it and make the new one have an IR to make an A/B comparision, and 90% of the time the IR just sounds more open, cleaner, bigger. I'm sure if you made the right EQ moves you can get it to sound like that too, but that's MANY parametric EQ blocks, and I like to keep that simple, you know, low cut, high cut (or not), mid cut (a little), maybe raise it a bit at the hi mids. With the stock cabs from what I remember there were many many noisy freqs.

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5 minutes ago, vstrattomusic said:

 

Not saying you can't, but it takes work, especially with the stock cabs, I make a patch with stock cabs, then copy/paste it and make the new one have an IR to make an A/B comparision, and 90% of the time the IR just sounds more open, cleaner, bigger. I'm sure if you made the right EQ moves you can get it to sound like that too, but that's MANY parametric EQ blocks, and I like to keep that simple, you know, low cut, high cut (or not), mid cut (a little), maybe raise it a bit at the hi mids. With the stock cabs from what I remember there were many many noisy freqs.

 

I love the stock cabs . . . BUT . . . if you find the stock cabs too hard . . . then use IRs like you do with the Axe FX. Problem solved.

 

I mean, that is what you use with the Axe FX so the point of complaint seems kind of trivial.

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Just now, Kilrahi said:

 

I love the stock cabs . . . BUT . . . if you find the stock cabs too hard . . . then use IRs like you do with the Axe FX. Problem solved.

 

I mean, that is what you use with the Axe FX so it seems kind of trivial.

 

I have no Axe FX, I just have Fractal's IR loader (which..has not really worked very well for me) so I can load their exclusive Cab Packs, that ended when I bough the Helix, but the sound quality of those IRs is undeniably good, it makes mixing a ton easier.

 

To say something good about the stock cabs..well at least the ones I've used for high gain they have a very cool midrange growl, so at least they do not sound dead, which is very good. Now you've made me insecure about my mixing skills and I'm going to be trying to get a big mix with the stock cabs for weeks >:(

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51 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

I sympathize with your concerns, but ultimately this is a challenging thing for Line 6 to consider, because if they choose to tweak it to get all the Axe FX users happier they'll lollipop off the Line 6 people like myself who think the Helix is better.

 

Tough call.

I respect your opinion, I’ve used Line 6 products consistently since 2001 when I bough my first Flextone II, I currently own 7 Line 6 products aside from the Helix LT and Native. I’m always pulling for them, I love their products, that being said (and I know this is going to sound horribly disrespectful and I certainly don’t mean for it to) I don’t think there is a universe where someone can honestly say that the Helix sounds as good as the Axe FX in terms of the amp models.

 

I want it to, I want it to sound good enough for me to sell the AF2, I just don’t need it anymore other than the Helix just doesn’t compare on recordings.

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16 minutes ago, shawnt113 said:

I respect your opinion, I’ve used Line 6 products consistently since 2001 when I bough my first Flextone II, I currently own 7 Line 6 products aside from the Helix LT and Native. I’m always pulling for them, I love their products, that being said (and I know this is going to sound horribly disrespectful and I certainly don’t mean for it to) I don’t think there is a universe where someone can honestly say that the Helix sounds as good as the Axe FX in terms of the amp models.

 

I want it to, I want it to sound good enough for me to sell the AF2, I just don’t need it anymore other than the Helix just doesn’t compare on recordings.

 

Based on who? What survey?  Just general impressions on message boards?

 

Because if we really break it down, we can prove a few things wrong right away:

 

1. "I don't think there is a universe where someone can honestly say that the Helix sounds as good as the Axe FX in terms of the amp models."

 

Sure there is.  The one you're sitting in.  I'll say it.  I'm confidant others will too.  No one ever polled me on it, nor was I part of any big survey.  Now, keep in mind, I'm in no way UNIMPRESSED with Axe FX.  Honestly I think we're reaching, or have reached, a point of musical parity on most of these high end devices where it's really coming down to musical snobbery.  It's like the question of which is better:  A Ford F150 or a Toyota Tundra.

 

I mean . . . there is no truly OBJECTIVE answer to that - it comes down to features and what the user wants.

 

2. " I really wish Helix would take a look and work on the overall realism of the processing (and more detailed work on certain amp models)."

 

Your original demand is referenced above, but what you're essentially saying is, "I wish Line 6 would make a better amp model."  Let's break that word "better" down for a minute.  Helix was always intended to be Line 6's PREMIER BEST OF THE BEST modeling system.

 

What do you think Line 6, who pretty much are the pioneers of this entire subject, did all those years ago?  Sat down and said, "We want to make an amp model that is ALMOST realistic! We'll get it 90% there!!!"

 

Of course they didn't.  They made the very best they were capable of for their best product they could, right down to A and B testing (which is as scientific as you can get).  If I were a Line 6 guy having done all the hard work and testing, and then just had someone say, "Do it better," I would try to be respectful, but I'd also have no idea what you mean by that.

 

I'm not trying to convince you that it's your favorite - but I think it's kind of funny you literally admit in your first post  that you understand that it's all SUBJECTIVE but then go on to say in the above reply that there is an OBJECTIVE fact here.

 

It's either one or the other. The two can't coexist.

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I see what you’re saying and I definitely did some double talk. Something I would ask you is about your experience with Axe FX? How long did you own one? What firmwares? If you haven’t owned one,  how many opportunities did you have to really dig into it?

 

Being an 18 year customer, I can also agree that L6 sat out to do the best modeling they could and even as far back as the Axsys and I think at certain times they  achieved it given the technology available at the time. The difference now is that the technology exists to take it further and while L6 has made a very fine product with the Helix, it is not the amp modeling is not the same quality as FAS’. 

 

Curious, what kind of music do you perform or record with your unit? While we disagree on this, I’d like to hear your stuff. Clearly you care about tone so I think I’d really enjoy checking it out!

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Ha ha ha ha . . . I'm just a bloody amateur.  MANY of the tone Gods on here are far better sources to learn from than me (and I know - I have bought their presets and IRs to both enjoy and learn from them).  I'm just a hobbyist, playing for small groups from time to time. Despite my hours and hours spent playing guitar, I have a hundred times that listening to music in general.


That's the great thing about taste though. Generally, it doesn't require outside experience other than the events themselves. I've heard Axe FX (and in case my meaning wasn't clear from the above, I think it's an amazing unit and seriously considered it, as well as a Kemper) and I heard Helix.  I listened to both ecosystems very carefully and chose which one to align myself with. At the end of the day, I thought that I preferred Helix (but I wouldn't be surprised if I imagined it), and I knew I preferred its price and routing power. That's the amazing thing about subjective subjects like taste though, as long as you have tried both things you are qualified to determine which you, the user, prefer. 

 

 

Here's a good counter example. I SWEAR by Helix's sound over Headrush. I REALLY think it sounds better.  I'm way more confidant about that difference than I am over the difference in quality between Helix, Axe FX, and Kemper.  However, I have met many Headrush guys who say their unit sounds better AND also sounds better than Axe FX. A few times I've got caught up trying to argue it with them to no avail. I left convinced they were too biased too see clearly. They likewise thought I was nuts. 

 

However . . .  if you want in on a little secret . . . if someone put me up to an A/B test and said if I chose wrongly I'd lose $1,000 - dude - I'd run like hell. 

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I looked at the Head Rush before the Helix. Am I wrong that their algorithms are pretty much unchanged from the Eleven Rack?

 

While I’ll stand by saying that the AF2 is better, in amp modeling quality I can confidentially  say that had I not used my that AF2 as much as I did for 6 years before buying my Helix, the Helix would blow away everything modeling wise I’ve ever used prior. If they could just get that 10-15(maybe 20)% and it may not even be that much, improvement in the amp sim quality I’m hoping for, I’d gladly sell my AF2 and roll on with Line 6 only.

 

You said you’ve bought presets? Maybe i should

consider that, or at least download some free presents to see what everyone else is doing. Maybe I am just approaching the Helix wrong.

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1 hour ago, shawnt113 said:

I looked at the Head Rush before the Helix. Am I wrong that their algorithms are pretty much unchanged from the Eleven Rack?

 

While I’ll stand by saying that the AF2 is better, in amp modeling quality I can confidentially  say that had I not used my that AF2 as much as I did for 6 years before buying my Helix, the Helix would blow away everything modeling wise I’ve ever used prior. If they could just get that 10-15(maybe 20)% and it may not even be that much, improvement in the amp sim quality I’m hoping for, I’d gladly sell my AF2 and roll on with Line 6 only.

 

You said you’ve bought presets? Maybe i should

consider that, or at least download some free presents to see what everyone else is doing. Maybe I am just approaching the Helix wrong.

 

The headrush models have been tweaked and improved and are quite good. I actually have owned a Kemper, AX8 and a Helix so I thought I would chime in as I have spent many hours with all 3 units. Out of the 3 units the AX8 and Kemper to my ears were better sounding than my Helix on pretty much every amp model. The AX8 had incredible modeling and the reverb was lush. The Kemper was great as well but I hated that you couldn't really tweak it like a real amp. With all of that said the unit I kept is the Helix. The reason why is simple. I love the interface the scribble strips and ease of use. I also find the effects to be really good. If the Helix had the same interface but the modeling of the AX8 I would be over the moon. In the end I just found the design of the pedal itself outweighed the slightly better modeling of the other units but I feel you pain :).

 

P.S. Line 6 buy Fractal and steal their modeling lol

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In terms of becoming a pro at the Helix (not saying you're not - I really don't know your level) Glenn Delaunne was one of the first ones who really caught my ear, and he was the first one I ever bought presets on. Also, I'd mucked around with an HD 500x for a few years and felt like I was decent, but something about the Helix stuff felt harder to me. I really started to feel I could dial in something pretty well after watching even a few of Jason Saddites' videos. This is by no means an exhaustive list - I've since watched TONS of tips from many people, and bought a few other group's presets too (just bought Peter Hamm's acoustic stuff to get better at that angle). While I still feel like there is way more I can crank out of the HX framework and it can be daunting sometimes, but now I feel like I am on the right track and know how to keep improving. 

 

At least in terms of the Eleven Rack and the Headrush, the claim from them is that the ability to take the measurements for the models when the original Elven Rack was created were extremely accurate, but that the processing power limited what they could do with it. When they made the new software, they kept those accurate measurements, but built the software from the ground up with the power to more adequately model it all.

 

True or not? Who knows. For sure there's probably some truth in it. Is it comparable to Helix/Axe/Kemper? Eh - as I said, I'd agree with you they're not, I just wouldn't dare test myself. Ten years ago I would have confidently  tested any of them.  I also think the Boss GT-1000 is inferior to all of them, but there are Boss fans who'd clock me for saying that. 

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I never owned an Eleven Rack but had opportunity to spend a good amount of time with it. It was cool but the sound quality to me wasn’t near to being on par with the AF2, I’d say it was better than my  Vetta but not by a mile or anything. It would be interesting to see if the hardware of the Head Rush makes a difference and how much.

I agree on the Boss unit too, I have a GT Pro, it’s a good unit, especially if you’re running it in 4 Cable method with a real amp. There is a guy here in NC that has a studio, gets killer guitar tones and his live rig is a GT Pro into a Mesa/Boogie tube power amp. It sounds pretty good. I tried the same method and got decent results but the tale tell sign to me is the top end.  Bite vs. fizz/shrill.

 

The reason I stayed away from Kemper, other than I already had my Axe FX was the fact you couldn’t tweak. I also still don’t get how it (or even if it) reproduces the distortion correctly. I get that it can essentially take an audio version of a snap shot of your rig but what about the gain structure, as far as how it distorts? I think only the FAS gear and the Helix are really doing that right. Does anyone know how the Kempers do on this?

 

I have only played a Kemper once, I wasn’t impressed. I guess we just didn’t bond.

 

@Kilrahi I’d still like to hear some of your stuff!!!

 

Good discussions here, I’m a total gear nerd.

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1 hour ago, shawnt113 said:

The reason I stayed away from Kemper, other than I already had my Axe FX was the fact you couldn’t tweak. I also still don’t get how it (or even if it) reproduces the distortion correctly. I get that it can essentially take an audio version of a snap shot of your rig but what about the gain structure, as far as how it distorts? I think only the FAS gear and the Helix are really doing that right. Does anyone know how the Kempers do on this?

 

This is overly simplified, I'm sure, but I believe the Kemper has a collection of prototypical amp models so when you profile an amp, it decides which of those models its behavior matches most closely and uses that as the basis of the profile. It then sculpts the tone around that. Most Kemper users seem to say it feels very natural, but I've seen a few reviews from people saying that they do notice some underlying similarities from one profile to the next.

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1 hour ago, shawnt113 said:

The reason I stayed away from Kemper, other than I already had my Axe FX was the fact you couldn’t tweak. I also still don’t get how it (or even if it) reproduces the distortion correctly. I get that it can essentially take an audio version of a snap shot of your rig but what about the gain structure, as far as how it distorts? I think only the FAS gear and the Helix are really doing that right. Does anyone know how the Kempers do on this?

 

I have only played a Kemper once, I wasn’t impressed. I guess we just didn’t bond.

 

This was pretty much my impression when I tested one out. My friend had a ENGL profile loaded up and I thought it was pretty dark for my taste, but moving the tone knobs more than a few numbers started to sound weird. More like boosting the highs/lows on a home stereo than on a guitar amp. Seemed like I'd be fighting for a long time to find profiles that fit my needs versus just dialing it in to what I want to hear.

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I'd say you're better off comparing the models in the Helix to an actual similar mic'd amp, not the Axe. There are winners and losers in every platform. For instance, I love Fractals Plexi's and JCM800's, hate their SLO and BE100. Love Helix's Friedman and SLO, not so much the Plexi's. Turns out those two models, along with a generic Fender clean get's me where I need to be. I'll never use a crunchy Fender, AC anything, DC anything, so that eliminates at least 50% of both modellers amps. Do I care, no, I'd delete them if I could!

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3 hours ago, shawnt113 said:

I never owned an Eleven Rack but had opportunity to spend a good amount of time with it. It was cool but the sound quality to me wasn’t near to being on par with the AF2, I’d say it was better than my  Vetta but not by a mile or anything. It would be interesting to see if the hardware of the Head Rush makes a difference and how much.

I agree on the Boss unit too, I have a GT Pro, it’s a good unit, especially if you’re running it in 4 Cable method with a real amp. There is a guy here in NC that has a studio, gets killer guitar tones and his live rig is a GT Pro into a Mesa/Boogie tube power amp. It sounds pretty good. I tried the same method and got decent results but the tale tell sign to me is the top end.  Bite vs. fizz/shrill.

 

The reason I stayed away from Kemper, other than I already had my Axe FX was the fact you couldn’t tweak. I also still don’t get how it (or even if it) reproduces the distortion correctly. I get that it can essentially take an audio version of a snap shot of your rig but what about the gain structure, as far as how it distorts? I think only the FAS gear and the Helix are really doing that right. Does anyone know how the Kempers do on this?

 

I have only played a Kemper once, I wasn’t impressed. I guess we just didn’t bond.

 

@Kilrahi I’d still like to hear some of your stuff!!!

 

Good discussions here, I’m a total gear nerd.

 

I think in order to know if the gain structure sounds authentic in the Kemper, go ask the thousands of pro and session players that use it!

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I get what you’re saying, I guess one of the reasons I compare to my Axe Fx is because all that I have been able to compare my AF2 in real life (with the exception of a couple one being the Bogner Shiva) are pretty darn impressively close, so it seems like a good point of reference.  I can get good tones out of the Helix, but it does take a lot more work that with the Axe, especially when I am using Helix Native, part of I think could be how I am running my guitar into my Scarlet 18i8,  right now I am in the preproduction phase of recording an album and about to start really digging in to how I am going to track guitars, maybe I will have some break through in this process. My current plan is to record DI tracks and reamp through my Axe FX though it’s not as convenient by a long shot. I very well may end up using Native for effects, especially since I can automate.

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A bass cut to the amp input would be cool as would the ability to tweak the drive pedals a bit, like taming the mid honk of a tube screamer, pulling back the gain of the DS 1, or tweaking the OCD to not be as tight/focused/compressed sounding. 

 

 When I got the Helix LT I put my pedal board into the send and return on the helix and switched between helix version of OCD,Klon and tube screamer and the real deal on my board and to be honest there was not much in it tone wise . You mention a bass cut on the amps input, but it is there in the helix if you prepared to use either the parametric or graphic eq before the amp or at the beginning of the chain.  In fact using eq before or after an amp block can improve what you are expecting i.e. most folk say the nearest to a Dumble a helix comes to is the litigator model if you look at the circuit for a dumble you will find that the tone stack/FET element comes pretty close in the beginning of the signal chain so try putting a graphic in front of the litigator with more 500 Hz and 750 Hz dialed in and it will sound even more like a Dumble. This kind of thinking will get you closer with other amps too the tools are there but sometimes you need to think outside the box a bit to obtain your goal.

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23 hours ago, shawnt113 said:

I get what you’re saying, I guess one of the reasons I compare to my Axe Fx is because all that I have been able to compare my AF2 in real life (with the exception of a couple one being the Bogner Shiva) are pretty darn impressively close, so it seems like a good point of reference.  I can get good tones out of the Helix, but it does take a lot more work that with the Axe, especially when I am using Helix Native, part of I think could be how I am running my guitar into my Scarlet 18i8,  right now I am in the preproduction phase of recording an album and about to start really digging in to how I am going to track guitars, maybe I will have some break through in this process. My current plan is to record DI tracks and reamp through my Axe FX though it’s not as convenient by a long shot. I very well may end up using Native for effects, especially since I can automate.

 

I think the biggest difference between the Fractal and the Helix is the on board cabs. Some like the stock Helix cabs, I think they are OK but when I load my favorite IR's, it's night and day. Keep in mind, the Axe cabs are all third party IR's, so if you prefer IR's to the Helix cabs, you're starting behind the 8 ball right off the bat.

 

I load the BE into the Helix with an OH Marshall Basketweave G12M20 speaker, gain = 7.5, bass = 8.5, mid = 6, treble = 5.5, presence = 4.5, master = 3, and I'm done. It is virtually indistinguishable from a real mic'd BE. Can't get any easier than that.

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Over half of the IR’s in the Axe (II) are FAS made cabs, though there are quite a few 3rd party ones. 

 

That being said, I really only use 3rd party IR’s with either my Helix LT, Native or Axe FX. You are certainly right that they make a night and day difference. 

 

Also, I want to add that FAS just released(as in last night) a Beta fw to get the II’s amp modeling as close as possible to the III’s. I didn’t get much time with it, but I can say for sure the Mesa MKII C+ sounds quite a bit more alive now.

 

I still think I need to dive into The Helix more to see if I am just approaching it wrong. 

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Someone commented on huge tone issues with the Helix. I'll just leave this here...   Helix direct into Studio One 4 Pro using my BFR Axis Buckeye Burl.

 

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