Use as pedalboard into an amp

[joseroys]

Hey there. 

 

So i bought the Helix again (second time) and trying it in front of an amp like a pedalboard. I’m using an ac15 with a Celestion Blue speaker. I’m am not trolling I swear. Really wanting this to work. 

 

I just plugged in, selected the instrument output and plugged out of the mono line out into my amp and just went they the distortion pedals real quick. A pair of pedals sound ok but a bunch sounded prettt questionable. I’m hoping I just did something wrong. A couple of pedals sounded really really bad and super fizzy like the Octavia. 

 

Any suggestions would be great!

 

thanks!

[rvroberts]

So you bought a full Helix to use as s pedal board?  Not a HXFX?

And you are certain you are not a troll?

I'll give you the benefit of doubt. 

I've owned a lot of AC15s and they are very bright amps. You may know they don't work well with all drives and distortions because of that. 

They also don't have effects returns - well mine didn't anyhow. 

Are you using the amp clean or edge of breakup?

Typically, what you need to do is manage the top end of most distortions. 

Those with a good mid bump and not too much high end work best. 

You can manage this with EQ. 

But first, make sure your levels are sensible. Get a good cleanish sound with guitar direct into amp, then adjust level through be Helix to be similar. ( With no effects)

Then use EQ to tailor the top end. Don't be concerned if you have to cut below 5K. 

You won't get hifi delays like this and don't even think about using amp or speaker Sims in your effects chains

 

[Kilrahi]

Just to clarify, here is your quote:

 

"A pair of pedals (distortion) sound ok but a bunch sounded prettt questionable."

 

Distortion is literally destroying your sound wave. I mean, we all adore good distortion, but to be clear, you say you are adding a "bunch" and all we know a bunch means is more than two.

 

The more distortion pedals you throw in a chain, modeled OR real, the more insanely hard it will be to keep it from going to lollipop.

[joseroys]

6 hours ago, rvroberts said:

 

Yeahhelix. I got it for studio and live. But I wanted to try it with my amp to see if it could replace my pedals. The vox also has a bright cap mode so it takes pedals pretty well. 

 

I’m using the vox with low drive and clean with the master up. 

 

So, I have to use a high cut on the pedals? I thought they were supposed to behave like a real pedal?  

 

What did did you mean by not getting hi-fi delays?  With the 5k roll off you mean?  Again, seems not as I expected having to roll off top end if they behave like real pedals. 

 

When using the regular mono line out, the master volume is obviously in effect. There’s no “nominal” level on the output I’m guessing right?  I tried the loop out which seems to just send line level. I would have thought since I have line (instrument) level on the master out, it would just be; line level. So it’s line level with a huge boost?

 

and yes. Of course. I turned off all amp modelers. 

 

Thanks for the help

Quote

 

o you bought a full Helix to use as s pedal board?  Not a HXFX?

And you are certain you are not a troll?

I'll give you the benefit of doubt. 

I've owned a lot of AC15s and they are very bright amps. You may know they don't work well with all drives and distortions because of that. 

They also don't have effects returns - well mine didn't anyhow. 

Are you using the amp clean or edge of breakup?

Typically, what you need to do is manage the top end of most distortions. 

Those with a good mid bump and not too much high end work best. 

You can manage this with EQ. 

But first, make sure your levels are sensible. Get a good cleanish sound with guitar direct into amp, then adjust level through be Helix to be similar. ( With no effects)

Then use EQ to tailor the top end. Don't be concerned if you have to cut below 5K. 

You won't get hifi delays like this and don't even think about using amp or speaker Sims in your effects chains

 

 

[joseroys]

6 hours ago, Kilrahi said:

Just to clarify, here is your quote:

 

"A pair of pedals (distortion) sound ok but a bunch sounded prettt questionable."

 

Distortion is literally destroying your sound wave. I mean, we all adore good distortion, but to be clear, you say you are adding a "bunch" and all we know a bunch means is more than two.

 

The more distortion pedals you throw in a chain, modeled OR real, the more insanely hard it will be to keep it from going to lollipop.

 

 

I meant I tried  bunch of pedals to test. Not stacking but separate. Individually. But I tried a bunch of the of/distortion. 

[codamedia]

2 hours ago, joseroys said:

I tried the loop out which seems to just send line level. I would have thought since I have line (instrument) level on the master out, it would just be; line level. So it’s line level with a huge boost?

 

I think most people would find it very hard to take this thread seriously when you don't seem to understand the basic setup options of the Helix, or the concept of level matching. 

 

If you don't have the I/O settings and levels set right, nothing will sound right! 

1. Every input and output on the Helix can be set to Instrument or Line Level. In your setup, you should have both the inputs and outputs set to INSTRUMENT.
2. With every effect off... set your the level "through the Helix" to be the exact same as the guitar would be straight into the amp. This takes a little back and forth. Once you find the correct spot on the Master Volume.... make note of it. (painters tape and a marker always does the trick if you don't trust your memory)
   • I don't want to complicate matters, but you could just disable the master volume from the 1/4" outputs. If the I/O is set to instrument, it would be like using a pedal board. 
3. With any effect you add, make sure you check the "effect level vs the bypass level" to make sure you don't start creeping up or down beyond the obvious. This step is 100% the same as setting up a pedal board.

If you follow that approach, you will find that the Helix is remarkably close to the effects it is modeling. If you add a Teemah overdrive, it will be virtually the same as adding a Timmy to your pedal board. Same with a Tube Screamer, or a script phase, or a dyna comp, or <insert favorite effect here>. 

 

9 hours ago, joseroys said:

A couple of pedals sounded really really bad and super fizzy like the Octavia

 

Have you ever played a real Octavia? Super fizzy is kind of right :) Learn how to dial it in and use it (just like a real one) and it's magical. 

[davepmoll]

AC 15 is a low headroom kind of amp and tends to be finicky with actual pedals, let alone virtual ones.   It's a good amp in its own right, but if you really want to take full advantage of what the Helix can do you should look for a different amp. 

[Kilrahi]

14 hours ago, joseroys said:

So i bought the Helix again (second time) and trying it in front of an amp like a pedalboard. I’m using an ac15 with a Celestion Blue speaker. I’m am not trolling I swear. Really

 

 

 

I hope you get it figured out. I can't imagine buying something that expensive twice. The Helix is amazing, but at that kind of price sometimes when you know something isn't your cup of tea you're better off bailing. If you love original pedals and manage to make them sing, well, that's not a disgraceful route to go.

 

4 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

Have you ever played a real Octavia? Super fizzy is kind of right :) Learn how to dial it in and use it (just like a real one) and it's magical. 

 

Excellent advice all throughout your reply, and yeah, that line about the Octavia just left me confused. It translated to me as, "My modeled super fizzy pedal sounded like the real super fizzy pedal."

[joseroys]

4 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

I think most people would find it very hard to take this thread seriously when you don't seem to understand the basic setup options of the Helix, or the concept of level matching. 

 

If you don't have the I/O settings and levels set right, nothing will sound right! 

1. Every input and output on the Helix can be set to Instrument or Line Level. In your setup, you should have both the inputs and outputs set to INSTRUMENT.
2. With every effect off... set your the level "through the Helix" to be the exact same as the guitar would be straight into the amp. This takes a little back and forth. Once you find the correct spot on the Master Volume.... make note of it. (painters tape and a marker always does the trick if you don't trust your memory)
   • I don't want to complicate matters, but you could just disable the master volume from the 1/4" outputs. If the I/O is set to instrument, it would be like using a pedal board. 
3. With any effect you add, make sure you check the "effect level vs the bypass level" to make sure you don't start creeping up or down beyond the obvious. This step is 100% the same as setting up a pedal board.

If you follow that approach, you will find that the Helix is remarkably close to the effects it is modeling. If you add a Teemah overdrive, it will be virtually the same as adding a Timmy to your pedal board. Same with a Tube Screamer, or a script phase, or a dyna comp, or <insert favorite effect here>. 

 

 

Have you ever played a real Octavia? Super fizzy is kind of right :) Learn how to dial it in and use it (just like a real one) and it's magical. 

 

Hmmm. Not sure how it came across that I didn’t know about gain staging. I spent about 7 years as a full time audio engineer and a lifetime of playing guitar. 

 

there didn’t seem to be a way to be a way to use the instrument out and bypass the gigantic master volume knob. So I was curious what was considered nominal. Kinda like every mixing and recording console ever made. 

[joseroys]

11 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

 

 

I hope you get it figured out. I can't imagine buying something that expensive twice. The Helix is amazing, but at that kind of price sometimes when you know something isn't your cup of tea you're better off bailing. If you love original pedals and manage to make them sing, well, that's not a disgraceful route to go.

 

 

Excellent advice all throughout your reply, and yeah, that line about the Octavia just left me confused. It translated to me as, "My modeled super fizzy pedal sounded like the real super fizzy pedal."

 

Super extra nasty lollipop fizzy. I doubt most of us have played a real vintage Octavia right? Well neither have I but the full tone and some others do not sound like lollipop. Maybe they should have modeled a better sounding one. 

[Kilrahi]

1 hour ago, joseroys said:

 

Super extra nasty lollipop fizzy. I doubt most of us have played a real vintage Octavia right? Well neither have I but the full tone and some others do not sound like lollipop. Maybe they should have modeled a better sounding one. 

 

Well, they modelled the vintage one. I think people would riot if they modelled a cloned pedal. Not that personally I see any problem with it, but cork sniffers would claim all sorts of garbage. 

 

It's not the easiest thing to troubleshoot tone complaints over the internet. In your case, you clearly have tons of experience and you have been here before asking for how to fix things you feel sound off and it still didn't resolve how you felt. 

 

Have you thought of purchasing actual presets that likely use the pedals you feel don't sound right and then trying to tweak them for your unique scenario?  For example, I love Glenn's stuff and he has some Jimi Hendrix stuff you could build off of. He no doubt uses an FRFR but in my opinion it's not very difficult to pull out the amp sim and tune it to your real amp. Even if it's not Jimi you're trying to imitate, if you can get it good in one place you can get it good in another. 

 

His video is below. Great stuff.