10" FRFR Speaker?

[guitarbloke1980]

So I've been offered a JBL PRX710 for a very silly price through my work.

 

Would this be suitable for the HX Stomp?  Coming from a guitar amp and 2x12 I'm concerned that a single 10" speaker won't be able to cut it in the mix with my band (keys, bass, drums and the other guitarist plays a dual rectifier through a 2x12).  I'll be feeding it into the FOH as well, but I'm thinking about the mix onstage.

 

 

 

 

 

[SteveFrance]

When i see the specs (db and power), i assume it'll be allright !

[guitarbloke1980]

4 minutes ago, SteveFrance said:

When i see the specs (db and power), i assume it'll be allright !

 

Oops - sorry I meant to include those!  

 

133db SPL

1500w

Frequency range: 50 Hz - 19.6kHz

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/vintage/vintage-portable/prx700-series/prx710#.XIJnmYj7SUk

 

I will have the speaker raised off the ground on an amp stand and tilted slightly

[SteveFrance]

It was my answer (not a question nor an allusion), i've looked at it on the web ;)

You should buy it

[DunedinDragon]

It's a little bit older design but it would probably be okay.  It is a bi-amp design, but unlike more modern designs it allocates the amps equally between the horn and the speaker.  Generally more modern designs allocate less wattage to the horn than to the speaker because highs are more easily produced, but it has a pretty flat response in the "Normal position".  As far as loudness it's right up there with most powered speakers with a rating of 133 db SPL, so it should be loud enough.

[guitarbloke1980]

Thanks guys, they've said I can have it for £50 (GBP) which seems like a good buy to me :)  I'll take it!

 

[gunpointmetal]

You're not going to get a 1:1 replacement for a 2x12 cab with a 10" FRFR monitor as far as volume/air movement (unless you're underpowering/running your cab at moderate volumes). That 133dB rating is more than likely a peak transient output and no way reflects the continuous output, which is probably closer to 90dB (probably). If you're not playing metal with scooped-out tones or heavy distortion, that speaker will probably be plenty for most gigs, though. I would suggest getting it up on a pole to about chest/shoulder height for the tweeter versus having it on a tilt-back amp stand.

[rd2rk]

1 hour ago, gunpointmetal said:

I would suggest getting it up on a pole to about chest/shoulder height for the tweeter versus having it on a tilt-back amp stand.

 

This.

At that price, even if it's not loud enough, you probably won't have much trouble turning it around.

[DunedinDragon]

1 hour ago, gunpointmetal said:

You're not going to get a 1:1 replacement for a 2x12 cab with a 10" FRFR monitor as far as volume/air movement (unless you're underpowering/running your cab at moderate volumes). That 133dB rating is more than likely a peak transient output and no way reflects the continuous output, which is probably closer to 90dB (probably). If you're not playing metal with scooped-out tones or heavy distortion, that speaker will probably be plenty for most gigs, though. I would suggest getting it up on a pole to about chest/shoulder height for the tweeter versus having it on a tilt-back amp stand.

 

Actually you're likely to get more volume as heard by the audience due to the difference in design of cabs and powered speakers.  Cabinets have a LOT of bleed and the sound cone is quite large in all directions, so a lot of sound energy gets wasted in the ceiling and floors.  Powered cabinets are much more directional with a wide horizontal sound cone and limited vertical cone.  There's also a LOT less bleed from the type of sealed cabinets used on powered cabinets so the sound energy is MUCH more directional and efficient maintaining higher db over distance.  That's why you haven't seen cabinets used for FOH speakers for at least 2 decades now.

As far as the 133db SPL rating that is the peak without any specification of distance, but those are instantaneous so it's likely in the 120-ish range.  You wouldn't want much more since a military jet takeoff from 25 ft measures in at 150 db which results in an immediate rupture of the eardrum.  Most often a loud rock concert will generally be in the 108 to 114 db range as it becomes physically painful pretty much above that range.

[gunpointmetal]

Actual volume and perceived loudness aren't the same thing. A fully-powered 2x12 cab will drown out a 10" PA speaker no matter how you position it, easily.

[DunedinDragon]

6 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

Actual volume and perceived loudness aren't the same thing. A fully-powered 2x12 cab will drown out a 10" PA speaker no matter how you position it, easily.

 

Well then I guess all the sound companies need to replace their line arrays with guitar cabinets, huh?  HINT:  perceived loudness is subjective, actual volume is measured and objective.  You might perceive you're going 120 mph in a car when the speedometer says you're only going 90.  I've run shows where the guy cranks his Marshall through a 4x12 cabinet and refuses to turn it down, so I mute his PA channel.  Around row 10 he won't be heard above the rest of the band, nor will he be heard on the opposing side of the stage.  Everyone else in the band will be heard clearly throughout the auditorium.  By the way, I'm not the only sound guy that does this.....it's an old trick that's been used quite often.

[gunpointmetal]

And we're talking about using a cabinet on stage as a guitar-only monitor, so "spread" and angle of projection only matter to one person.

If you're completely muting a channel in the PA and killing the room sound instead of just dialing it back to where its complimentary, you're a lollipop sound guy. It's not hard to back off a channel or high-pass so that the PA output still reaches the back of the room AND isn't overpowering the front mix. Sound guy's job is to make the band sound good in the room even if its not an easy situation, not dictate how the music is being made. 

 

To the OP: I've been auditioning monitors and playing through FRFR rigs for over 6 years now, in bands where the dynamic is LOUD. Where the crossover frequency sits and the slope of the crossover is almost as important as wattage for a guitar-only monitor if you're trying to maintain some of the tangible aspects of the guitar. A lower crossover will make the highs feel separate from the lows. Some cheaper PA speakers have the crossover as low as 1.8kHz. If you don't have PA support and need a lot of volume from your cab, one 10" PA speaker isn't going to cut it. If you're playing genres with more "classic" tones in a dynamic band and you're already running at a comfortable volume, you should be fine. Don't expect a 10" driver with a tweeter to "carry the room" the same way a 2x12 guitar cabinet would in a high-volume situation, though. 

[spikey]

Quote

Don't expect a 10" driver with a tweeter to "carry the room" the same way a 2x12 guitar cabinet would in a high-volume situation, though. 

 

Power/volume wise you are correct, but if "stage dynamics" is used properly (in most cases and depending on room acoustics) by all the band members this wouldn't need discussion. I have played with a few excellent people in the past who knew how to do this well, and it makes for a fun time on stage (because everyone can hear everyone), while the FoH does its job for the crowd. 

[amsdenj]

6 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

Cabinets have a LOT of bleed and the sound cone is quite large in all directions, so a lot of sound energy gets wasted in the ceiling and floors.  Powered cabinets are much more directional with a wide horizontal sound cone and limited vertical cone.  There's also a LOT less bleed from the type of sealed cabinets used on powered cabinets so the sound energy is MUCH more directional and efficient maintaining higher db over distance.  That's why you haven't seen cabinets used for FOH speakers for at least 2 decades now.

Guitar speakers are kind of unique. Although a round cone will produce the same dispersion over 360deg, that's maybe not the whole story. What happens is the low frequencies tend to go everywhere, and therefore small cones that don't move that much air will suffer from poor low end at high volumes because of this dispersion. All that wasted energy is lost.

 

However, high frequencies in a guitar speaker tend to beam straight out and don't disperse that much at all. Contrast with a PA horn that loads the diaphragm differently, resulting in  horizontal dispersion while limiting vertical dispersion, keeping the energy focused where the audience is. This is great for PA use, but maybe not so great for guitar performance use. This horizontal dispersion has the same effect on overall perceive loudness as the 360deg does for the lows on a guitar cabinet. The frequencies that would have been beamed straight out from a guitar speaker will now be dispersed horizontally by the PA horn, changing how these tones are perceived by the performer.

 

This can make the guitar feel like it gets lost in the stage mix, at least to the performer right in front of it. It can also make the guitar sound overly bright to the performer because the high end is getting better dispersion than the guitar speaker so the performer will hear it better. But that's not necessarily good if you're expecting a nice warm, fat sound from your guitar.

 

I think the issue is that what the performer needs for backline on stage, and what the audience needs to cover the room are quite different, and the same speaker/cabinet design can't do both very well. I've moved away from PA FRFR speakers for live stage/backline use to a Powercab Plus. This seems to be a nice compromise because the speaker models don't use the tweeter at all. So it sounds and feels more like a guitar speaker (which after all it is) to me, while still having FRFR capability for acoustic sounds and IRs I still want to use. Then I run Helix into the PA to support what's needed for FOH. I don't try to use the same solution for both.

 

 

 

[cvpe913]

Anyone tried the Laney AH110?

[Radeo_X]

@gitaristadaw did you try this Laney AH110? I've an option to buy it but I'm not 100% sure. If you have it please provide some opinion :)

[donkelley]

So anyway - the physics of speakers is very well understood.

 

dispersion wise, any multi-speaker cab, or multiple cabs, with speakers outputting the same frequency range of the same signal, will result in beaming (directionality).... the longer the cross sectional area in any one direction, the lower the frequency the beaming starts in that cross section (and it continues into high frequencies).

 

So a 212 cab has some very serious beaming of midrange frequencies on one direction since the total distance of the moving speaker from outside of one speaker to furthest outside limit of the other speaker is probably going to be like 24 or 25 inches (end to end, and often 2 speakers have 3 or 4 inches between them), and beams in the other direction (90 degrees or 270 degrees from the first sample) much less so since the cross section is roughly 11 inches (most 12" speakers are not 12" moving diameter).

 

412?  bad in both directions.

 

pa speaker with one main speaker doing most of the output, crossing to a horn at high frequencies?  even at all frequencies covered by the main (10", for example) speaker... and better dispersion up high because of the improvements in using properly designed tweeter.

 

10 speaker has good disperion into higher frequencies than a 12" speaker does.

 

IF you can get one that is very sensitive and has super high power handling and is built strongly and sounds even over it's range...

 

 

....then a PA speaker that is 10" with horn, and with a loud power amp, can easily be as loud as a 412 guitar cab. 

 

 

Power handling is in the design - not the size of the cone.  Efficiency sort-of also in design, but larger cone and more surface area do make a speaker louder... and 4 speakers is louder than 1 or 2.... so the cab has to work much less to make that same level of sound - but the 110 pa speaker may well be able to do it.

 

There are plenty that can't do it - and bass (guitar or drum or keys) output at high level is WAY harder to achieve and might blow up a 110.... for guitar, there are some amazing 110s, like the headrush frfr.

 

Major brand, 1000 to 2000 watts (peak) amp, high efficiency speakers??  It's a no brainer - it should be outstanding.

 

Bi-amped speakers have used weak amps for tweeter and big amps for woofers for several decades, actually... but some designs do benefit from having the same output power for each since there are some INCREDIBLY high efficiency PA 10", 12" and 15" speakers out there now, where in the old days the tweeter horn was always way more sensitive than the woofer and needed less power... these days, the power output isn't so dramatic.  Yes, without low frequencies there is for sure a difference, but there are readily available 2 channel super high power amps these days that make biamping with the same power output for tweeter and woofer a good cost decision, while it never hurst the marketing material to sum the outputs and say "look, we have 3 killowatt speakers!"... when in fact it's a tweeter amp that peaks at 1500 watts max but would fry the tweeter if it ever did that much output, so its output level is cut to match properly.

 

Marketing drivel, eh?  it's annoying - you gotta read between the lines.

 

Still, I'd say that would make a pretty outstanding FRFR speaker.

 

 

NOTE:  nearly all FRFR speakers are NOT flat response... listen to some videos where they compare FRFR speakers - they all sound dramatically different.

 

It shouldn't be that way, but it is.  They're just flatter than guitar cabs, is all.

 

So you may have to use global eq after to get your tones to match what you're used to, by probably cutting some highs, some presence area, and possibly cutting lows a bit too.

 

Global EQ is best for matching your FRFR's quirks to how you think it should sound... (like compared to line out into recording studio board through very truly FRFR studio monitors in a treated room that has had frequency analysis and correction done to it).