Helix Floor: a "Channel Volume" Issue could be responsible of the sound problems?

[32water]

Firmware: v2.71.0, but I think non only 
OS: Windows 7
Global Settings: factory defaults (Helix with a complete factory restore)
Bug: Suspected malfunctioning of the Channel Volume, introducing unwanted parallel distortion.

(Step by step description of how to reproduce bug)

A little introduction is necessary before the description of the problem, the following steps should demonstrate not the problem but a trick to solve it partially an temporarily.

 

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE:

DURING THE PROCEDURE, PAY ATTENTION MANAGING THE VOLUMES LEVELS, WRONG SETTINGS CAN DAMAGE YOUR HEARING!!!!!!!

BE CAREFUL

 

1. Create a completely new preset;
2. Add a AMP+CAB block (one you really know well how it works, one you use very often, better if you start with a distorted one);
3. Set the CHANNEL VOLUME parameter at 0
4. Add at least 2 stereo GAIN blocks after the AMP+CAB, each one settled at +12db;
5. Set the output level of the OUTPUT block to comfortable level for you (I used +20 db);
6. Play with the AMP+CAB varying the parameters at your taste.

 

After this, first of all is very important you understand if the chosen amplifier is working really so much better than ever, for me certainly, otherwise it could not be a bug forwardable to Line 6.

 

As rebuttal do the following steps:

1. Disable the two gain blocks;
2. Rise very carefully the CHANNEL VOLUME continuing to play.

 

Finally I want to say, only to know I'm not a newbie, that:

1. I have a very big experience with Line 6 product;
2. I have been playing for 35 years;
3. I had a multitude of different amplifiers and multi-effects in the past;
4. I have a large knowledge of musical instruments and surroundings.

 

So, let me know your experience, to understand if I found something very useful or it's only a dead end.

 

Personal note:

I have the suspect that CHANNEL VOLUME is working in parallel for the processed and unprocessed CAB block signal, so in fact lowering at 0 the parameter you reduce at minimum the unprocessed signal intervention.

 

I'm very interested in your opinions so be free to comment.

 

 

[GingerLefty]

It would have been helpful if you had described what you are hearing that is an issue, and what sounds better to you after you have implemented your fix.

Also in your implementation I presume the gain blocks are just making up for the drop in volume caused by setting the ch vol to zero?

[32water]

Thank you for the replay. 

For me in that situation the AMP+CAB works as it really should, for my experience using the channel volume everything become unusable. In truth, what I would like to know is if you all will obtain the same result, as I quote "So, let me know your experience, to understand if I found something very useful or it's only a dead end."

With regard to the gain blocks you are right.

[DunedinDragon]

I suspect that what you're experiencing is the exact same effect you would have were you to disable the amp+cab block.  That wouldn't block the signal chain, it would simply remove it from the signal chain.  Adding channel volume would be the equivalent of enabling the amp+cab block.  I would also imagine that's by design since you don't want to stop the flow of the entire signal chain with whatever blocks might be in it either before or after the amp+cab block.  It could also be that the signal might continue to pass through and still be processed by the cab block so in effect it would the same as having a separate amp and cab block and then disabling the amp block only.  I don't personally see what you did as being any more useful than disabling the amp block would be.

[32water]

2 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

I suspect that what you're experiencing is the exact same effect you would have were you to disable the amp+cab block.  That wouldn't block the signal chain, it would simply remove it from the signal chain.  Adding channel volume would be the equivalent of enabling the amp+cab block.  I would also imagine that's by design since you don't want to stop the flow of the entire signal chain with whatever blocks might be in it either before or after the amp+cab block.  It could also be that the signal might continue to pass through and still be processed by the cab block so in effect it would the same as having a separate amp and cab block and then disabling the amp block only.  I don't personally see what you did as being any more useful than disabling the amp block would be.

Thank you for your replay.

But I want to highlight an aspect, what I asked you all is simply and gently to try the procedure to experience what I experienced before starting a discussion, to be sure to start everyone form the same point. You could be right in what you say but, because of is very unusual situation, also no.

Obviously I'm not sure about what I did and I don't want to force my opinions, for sure.

Really thank you for the patience.

 

[cruisinon2]

Am I the only one who doesn't have the faintest idea what the gripe is? 

[codamedia]

40 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

Am I the only one who doesn't have the faintest idea what the gripe is? 

 

He wants us to hear the difference for our selves... without telling us what the difference is as to not set any pre-conceived notions. 

 

4 hours ago, 32water said:

Add a AMP+CAB block (one you really know well how it works, one you use very often, better if you start with a distorted one); ......

 

Personal note:

I have the suspect that CHANNEL VOLUME is working in parallel for the processed and unprocessed CAB block signal, so in fact lowering at 0 the parameter you reduce at minimum the unprocessed signal intervention.

 

To test your theory... simply use individual amp/cab blocks. Once you do that, the channel volume CANNOT have anything to do with the cab block.

 

I don't understand why you are adding "stereo gain blocks" (rather than mono gain blocks) after the amp/cab block.... can you explain your decision in that?

[cruisinon2]

50 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

He wants us to hear the difference for our selves... without telling us what the difference is as to not set any pre-conceived notions. 

 

Fair enough...I never use the amp+cab blocks anyway, and I learned long ago not to chase gremlins that won't affect me one way or the other.... there's only so many hours in the day. 

[phil_m]

I'm always very skeptical of these sorts of posts from people claiming to have found some sort of fatal flaw in the modeling and then proposing some sort of cure-all. A few years ago, there was a guy who claimed that adding an Opto-Trem block with the mix at 0 in every one of his presets was the secret sauce... I mean, people can do whatever they want with their presets, of course, but I have no idea what the whole claim of "parallel distortion" is about... The only thing I'd say is that with high channel volume levels, it is possible to overload (it's not really clipping, as it's a modeled response) some subsequent blocks. But adding +24dB of gain after the amp block, plus another 20dB at the output - that's a lot of gain!

[codamedia]

I created two patches....

1. As the OP described, using the Marshall JMP Jump Model as the amp/cab. I left the amp settings at default other than the channel volume which I set to zero.
2. I duplicated the patch, turned off the gain blocks and turned up the channel volume to compensate for the loss of gain. 

I notice ZERO difference in tone or feel once the volumes are matched.

 

I have my thoughts on this... both are related to volume matching

 

I use a console in my home studio to match levels. Without that it is very easy to "think" you have them at the same levels when they are not. When that happens you may perceive a tonal difference when it is actually a volume difference. As I said... once I level matched the two patches, that perceptional difference is gone. 

 

As you turn up the channel volume you will automatically pick lighter... which obviously creates a difference in tone (generally cleaner) as you turn up.  That is why it is essential to get the volumes matched... then DIG IN the same on both patches during any tests. 

 

 

[cruisinon2]

54 minutes ago, phil_m said:

I'm always very skeptical of these sorts of posts from people claiming to have found some sort of fatal flaw in the modeling and then proposing some sort of cure-all. A few years ago, there was a guy who claimed that adding an Opto-Trem block with the mix at 0 in every one of his presets was the secret sauce... I mean, people can do whatever they want with their presets, of course, but I have no idea what the whole claim of "parallel distortion" is about... The only thing I'd say is that with high channel volume levels, it is possible to overload (it's not really clipping, as it's a modeled response) some subsequent blocks. But adding +24dB of gain after the amp block, plus another 20dB at the output - that's a lot of gain!

 

Lol. There are probably an infinite number of exciting/weird ways to induce $hitty sounds with a modeler, but I refuse to make it a quest. As it is, the universe will aggravate me a dozen different ways today.... it doesn't need my help.  ;)

[DunedinDragon]

Apparently there are some people that have a WHOLE lot more time to dink and play around with their Helix than I do.  When I fire up my Helix I have stuff I need to get ready or I'm practicing/performing.  If I'm not doing anything you'll find me napping on the couch...and if so, don't bother me!!!!

[32water]

Ok, thanx to all, I appreciated your help but I understood I'm the only one with a sound problem and I found my trick to partially solved it. I close the topic, I don't want to bother anyone.

I hope next updates will help me to fix it completely.

 

[Krimpatul]

On 3/21/2019 at 8:54 AM, 32water said:

Firmware: v2.71.0, but I think non only 
OS: Windows 7
Global Settings: factory defaults (Helix with a complete factory restore)
Bug: Suspected malfunctioning of the Channel Volume, introducing unwanted parallel distortion.

(Step by step description of how to reproduce bug)

A little introduction is necessary before the description of the problem, the following steps should demonstrate not the problem but a trick to solve it partially an temporarily.

 

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE:

DURING THE PROCEDURE, PAY ATTENTION MANAGING THE VOLUMES LEVELS, WRONG SETTINGS CAN DAMAGE YOUR HEARING!!!!!!!

BE CAREFUL

 

1. Create a completely new preset;
2. Add a AMP+CAB block (one you really know well how it works, one you use very often, better if you start with a distorted one);
3. Set the CHANNEL VOLUME parameter at 0
4. Add at least 2 stereo GAIN blocks after the AMP+CAB, each one settled at +12db;
5. Set the output level of the OUTPUT block to comfortable level for you (I used +20 db);
6. Play with the AMP+CAB varying the parameters at your taste.

 

After this, first of all is very important you understand if the chosen amplifier is working really so much better than ever, for me certainly, otherwise it could not be a bug forwardable to Line 6.

 

As rebuttal do the following steps:

1. Disable the two gain blocks;
2. Rise very carefully the CHANNEL VOLUME continuing to play.

 

Finally I want to say, only to know I'm not a newbie, that:

1. I have a very big experience with Line 6 product;
2. I have been playing for 35 years;
3. I had a multitude of different amplifiers and multi-effects in the past;
4. I have a large knowledge of musical instruments and surroundings.

 

So, let me know your experience, to understand if I found something very useful or it's only a dead end.

 

Personal note:

I have the suspect that CHANNEL VOLUME is working in parallel for the processed and unprocessed CAB block signal, so in fact lowering at 0 the parameter you reduce at minimum the unprocessed signal intervention.

 

I'm very interested in your opinions so be free to comment.

 

 

 

Thank you. I've found more people have an issue when trying some presets in which suddenly a preset creates some strange over-distortion on a 6 string guitar lowest octave notes. Some thought of some parallel processing, so this may have something to do; I'll try it with 3.50. Some say it is fixed with a simple restart and seems to be due to changing several presets. It seems to only happen with distorted tones. I'm trying to know if it's hardware related or all helixes are like this. I'll also try if it's related to the electrical installation (it's brand new but...).