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11R user looking for more "meat" in Helix amps


jclark5093
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New to the L6 world, once bought a PodHD500 on sale then returned it 3 days later, underwhelmed (probably same sound I'm hearing now?) I've used an 11R for years now, and some people complain about cabs and say IR is better now, but I don't think I mind the cab sims in this unit. In fact, I think that might be the biggest issue I have with the Helix sound (other than the RAT being kind of quacky when you use the filter compared to my ProCo hardware rat).

 

I used the 11R input at 1M Ohm + Cap for both A/B, and just used a RAT or Screamer into Fender and Marshall type amps. My favorite on the 11R is the open back 1x15 cabinet, which Helix doesn't have, so I didn't compare that, but it gives you an idea of the type of tone I prefer, maybe? Usually using an AKG 414 type mic, but sometimes an 87 or 121. For this test, I used a Fender Delux Vibrato 1x12 and a Marshal J45 4x12 on both the 11R and Helix Native. My interface is a Saffire Pro 40 firewire, and I'm using small Yamaha HS5 nearfield monitors. Got the levels as close to each other as possible. I set the buffer size to 64 samples, and monitored both through my DAW (using SPDIF and *not* any audio/preamp inputs on my Saffire). So the only A/D was guitar into the adjustable impedance input on the 11R.

 

The Helix felt "tighter" and more "photoshop" in the distortion, especially amp distortion. 11R by comparison felt "heavy" and unpredictable (in a "tube" kind of way). Also, a bit more "air" in the 11R maybe? Or something, I can't quite figure out the EQ difference to match them... The only way I can describe is like this - the 11R produces a recording that sounds like a recorded amp, like I put a cab in an iso booth with a microphone. Helix sounds more like pre-eq'ed guitar tones you'd get out of a $5k Yamaha keyboard that does "guitar" sounds. I don't know how to phrase that in a useful engineering way! I don't know what it is about those sounds that always kind of sound "fake," so if anyone knows, please help with my descriptors!

 

I tried moving the mic further away on the Helix software and that helped a bit, but it was still lacking in the low end. I don't mind cutting some frequencies in the end mix, but I don't want to boost to create something that isn't there. Also, I'd like the option to use this live at some point. I got an HX Effects that I just started to learn yesterday (pain in the lollipop with bare feet, btw!), and it's decent, especially into my 11R, but the idea of switching to Helix (or native, as it's on sale for $70 for HX owners) is suddenly off-putting and I wonder if I should have spent $400 extra for a Headrush unit with the Eleven sounds that I would probably like more?

 

This is all assuming that the Helix Native software sounds identical to the Helix board (and will feel the same, given low enough latency with good drivers? I'm getting Input Latency 4ms, Output Latency 2ms which is like standing across the room from a real amp, but idk how much latency the VST adds).

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I realize you're probably an honest to God guy who bought the thing and is trying to find solutions, but check out the thread below that we all dealt with this week.  Just to be perfectly blunt, at least in my case, I'm exhausted with this type of question.

 

Again, being blunt (and there are people on this board who I know disagree with me) I do not believe that it should be hard to get a great tone from the Helix that feels "real." In fact, I think any person ought to be able to pull it off in about 30 seconds. 

 

What this means is, for people who can't - I struggle believing they ever will.  I'll also link you to a series of YouTube videos that are great for training people how to get a great tone from the Helix. If your journey is sincere, then follow those as a path to sucess. Again though, I tend to believe if you're struggling that much already, it's time to return it and run like hell. 

 

 

 

 

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Since I've never owned an Eleven rack nor Helix Native I can't offer any advice about tone matching there.  What I can offer is patterns tend to be the most useful in using the Helix in most recording or live scenarios.  As you'll probably notice in the Jason Sadites videos, he favors using mic combinations on cabinets, which is also consistent with every pro recording studio I've ever worked in.  The most common combination tends to be a dynamic and ribbon mix such as an MD421 and a R121.  This is most easily accomplished with the Helix stock cabs by using dual cabinets typically with the same cab but different mics and mic placements.

What seems to drive many users toward using IRs is the versatility of mics and mic placements used in the various IR mixes which aren't available in the stock cabs.  I know in my case one of the more useful IRs tends to be the Basketweave IRs from Ownhammer who have mixes that have as many as 6 different mic and mic placements in an IR.  I still believe, as demonstrated by Jason Sadites, that you can achieve a good cabinet sound through the stock cabs, but stock cabs are certainly limited in placement options giving you only distance as an option but no way to simulate positions between cone and cap edge nor off-axis positioning in the way that IRs can.

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17 hours ago, jclark5093 said:

Helix sounds more like pre-eq'ed guitar tones you'd get out of a $5k Yamaha keyboard that does "guitar" sounds. I don't know how to phrase that in a useful engineering way!

 

That's pretty harsh... 

 

Please export/share your Helix Native patch (or a couple) so others can take a look and make a suggestion or two. It's a lot easier than trying to guess at what might be the problem. Many of us have no problems getting great tones out of the Helix. Why some people struggle with it as much as they do is a mystery, or we would have those same problems. 

 

17 hours ago, jclark5093 said:

This is all assuming that the Helix Native software sounds identical to the Helix board (and will feel the same, given low enough latency with good drivers? I'm getting Input Latency 4ms, Output Latency 2ms which is like standing across the room from a real amp, but idk how much latency the VST adds).

 

Native and the Hardware should sound the same, however there are many variables with computers/interfaces to consider. As for latency, it is a non issue with the hardware unit. 

 

4 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

... but stock cabs are certainly limited in placement options giving you only distance as an option but no way to simulate positions between cone and cap edge nor off-axis positioning in the way that IRs can.

 

IMO this is the biggest limitation in the Helix... the mic models all "appear" to be taken from the center position which certainly highlights the bright/shrill tones. This is quite an oversight on the part of the modeling personnel. 

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I love these threads...

 

I was a rack mounted preamp/multi-fx guy for decades. Every single time I swapped units, there's was a period of adjustment... there's no way around it. If you use the same thing for a bunch of years, you get used to how it works and what it sounds like. It's that simple. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that switching to a completely different platform from a different manufacturer will require time and effort to achieve the results you seek. Expecting otherwise is asking for a miracle,  and assuming that the new thing you bought is somehow inferior because it doesn't provide instant gratification, is ridiculous. I've never been thrilled with anything right out of the box. So my reaction to these "I A/B-ed my new stuff with the old stuff for 5 minutes, and they don't sound the same" complaints will always be this:

 

No $hit...of course they don't. You can't just pull up the same amp, cab, and mic models on two entirely different devices and expect them to be indistinguishable. Especially when one of the units in question is as old as the 11R...I don't recall precisely when it was released, but it's been a number of years... which today, is a technological eternity. 

 

I've never played an 11R, but having many years of experience with similar gear, it's a virtual certainty that were I handed one right now, I would not reach tonal nirvana merely by flipping the switch and plugging in a guitar. 

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2 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

I was a rack mounted preamp/multi-fx guy for decades. Every single time I swapped units, there's was a period of adjustment...

 

And here's the thing. I agree with you on everything you're describing here. When it comes to figuring out how to sound like you want to sound on a new unit ABSOLUTELY. Especially with Helix, I think it has a very high learning curve. If someone comes on here and says, "Just bought Helix . . .LOVE the possibilities but feel completely lost as to how to get there . . ."

 

That I can understand, and that can be handled. However, when someone goes, "Helix sounds like fake music and my modeler doesn't."

 

That doesn't sound like a reasonable position to address. I don't think that position has been viable for a long time now. Helix, Fractal, Kemper, Headrush, Boss . . .  they all produce solid units that don't sound like fake digital recreations at this point. So when I hear that position stated it always feels like there's an underlying human prejudice that I'm not going to be able to address. 

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22 hours ago, jclark5093 said:

I used the 11R input at 1M Ohm + Cap for both A/B, and just used a RAT or Screamer into Fender and Marshall type amps. My favorite on the 11R is the open back 1x15 cabinet, which Helix doesn't have, so I didn't compare that, but it gives you an idea of the type of tone I prefer, maybe? Usually using an AKG 414 type mic, but sometimes an 87 or 121. For this test, I used a Fender Delux Vibrato 1x12 and a Marshal J45 4x12 on both the 11R and Helix Native. My interface is a Saffire Pro 40 firewire, and I'm using small Yamaha HS5 nearfield monitors. Got the levels as close to each other as possible. I set the buffer size to 64 samples, and monitored both through my DAW (using SPDIF and *not* any audio/preamp inputs on my Saffire). So the only A/D was guitar into the adjustable impedance input on the 11R.

 

It seems to me that you did a very limited test if you only looked at Marshall-style amps... Not sure what all amps you're including in this, either. The Deluxe Reverb cab seems like an odd choice for that style of amp... There is a 1X15 cab in Native, but it's closed back (the Ampeg B15 model).

 

I don't know, I don't think trying to make Native sound like your 11 Rack is a good way to go about things. You have to approach it with a blank slate and take the time to create tones you like.

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TL;DR: The amps sound IDENTICAL (it's the cabs that are making it different)

 

__________________________________________________________________________________

 

I have responses to everyone here, but don't know how to multiquote on this forum (sorry!)

 

I tried a Fender Deluxe Vibrato (traditionally a combo, but in modelers you have to choose a cab so I did 1x12) and also did a Marshall style amp because those were the two I was certain should be modeling the same amp (other names I'm not sure what amp they are supposed to be, but J45 and Deluxe Vibrato are easily deciphered).

 

As for the cab sims, yes, the biggest difference is the mic placement! That seems to be my primary complaint and why I compared it to a "yamaha keyboard" because it is very bright/harsh and in-your-face, where I'd prefer a cab be mic'ed with a close/medium and room mic, and that's the vibe I get from the 11R (also the EXACT SAME MODELING as the Headrush unit, apparently - makes sense, both made by the same people. There are some A/B tests and I literally can't tell them apart from each other, so I'm guessing the Headrush is basically the 11R in a floor-unit format).

 

And here's the real kicker to this whole thread: I turned off cab simulation in both, and used a (kinda bad) 3rd party cab IR in my daw, and guess what? The 11R and Helix sounded 100% identical!

 

SO

 

to everyone who says "new unit will sound different, duh, isn't that why you bought it?" Well, no, I'm testing before committing to a floor unit, which is about form factor and not about tone. Just want to make sure I can get a usable tone (and maybe purchase the software at discount if it's worth it). Seems like the cabs in there are not to my tastes, but I'll try mixed cabs and see if I can find some free decent sounding 3rd party IR I guess for testing? Don't want to invest if I'm not going to use it, you know...

 

Bottom line?

 

I dialed front-panel settings on the Marshall J45 into a 3rd party IR on both the 11R and the Helix (native) and could *not* tell the difference. They sounded the same, and they FELT the same. The amp modeling is on point. I don't think any of the brands are really getting "better" than others at amp modeling at this point, except maybe super clean fender tones which are the hardest to nail IMO, but again that might be a cab modeling thing. In a room with a fender amp, it's an open back cab, lots of bass coming out the back, interesting frequency curve,  especially in a small/medium room, because it's not about the amp - it's about the baffled cabinet producing standing waves in that room at some frequencies and not others. It's a whole experience, and you can't get that even with a real cab mic'ed up. But when you DO mic up a cab, it sound like (to me) what the 11R cabs sound like. If I could put those in a Helix, I would have zero problem getting a tone that I like. It's all about those microphones and their placement (and combination, and room they were recorded in, which might be why i like the 11r ones better?)

 

**Thanks Everyone!!**

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22 hours ago, jclark5093 said:

I tried moving the mic further away on the Helix software and that helped a bit, but it was still lacking in the low end. I don't mind cutting some frequencies in the end mix, but I don't want to boost to create something that isn't there. Also, I'd like the option to use this live at some point. I got an HX Effects that I just started to learn yesterday (pain in the lollipop with bare feet, btw!), and it's decent, especially into my 11R, but the idea of switching to Helix (or native, as it's on sale for $70 for HX owners) is suddenly off-putting and I wonder if I should have spent $400 extra for a Headrush unit with the Eleven sounds that I would probably like more?

 

This is all assuming that the Helix Native software sounds identical to the Helix board (and will feel the same, given low enough latency with good drivers? I'm getting Input Latency 4ms, Output Latency 2ms which is like standing across the room from a real amp, but idk how much latency the VST adds).

 

I re-read your original post today and I do have some additional thoughts:

 

1. You already know you loved your 11R. If you know you loved that, and you know you're struggling now, how much time did you spend researching Headrush?  It seems like the perfect natural evolution for you. My first thing I would look at is to return the HX Effects and examine the Gigboard which sells full price for $650. If you liked the sounds but need more IO and switches look at the full Headrush. 

 

2. Helix Native sounds identical to Helix, Helix LT, HX Effects, and HX Stomp. 

 

3. At the same time, if you tried IRs and they're working for you, that likely means you don't like the style of mic'ed cab that Helix emulates which puts you in the vast majority of the population as far as I can tell (I like them - but I seem to be a smaller group). If you want to keep the HX route, make sure you research IRs further since that's probably where you'll find your joy. 

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10 minutes ago, jclark5093 said:

As for the cab sims, yes, the biggest difference is the mic placement! That seems to be my primary complaint and why I compared it to a "yamaha keyboard" because it is very bright/harsh and in-your-face, where I'd prefer a cab be mic'ed with a close/medium and room mic, and that's the vibe I get from the 11R (also the EXACT SAME MODELING as the Headrush unit, apparently - makes sense, both made by the same people. There are some A/B tests and I literally can't tell them apart from each other, so I'm guessing the Headrush is basically the 11R in a floor-unit format).

 

The Headrush is kind of an 11 Rack in pedalboard format... Back in 2012, inMusic, the parent company to the Headrush brand, acquired M-Audio from Avid. Along with that sale they got a lot of the Avid software. Included in that was the 11 Rack code. So they took the code and reworked it in some ways (they split out the amp and cabs as separate blocks, for instance). I've heard some people say the Headrush sounds the same as the 11 Rack, some people say worse, and some say better... So I guess it's a matter of taste. The development team behind the Headrush, though, doesn't include any of the original 11 Rack people. I think pretty much all the development that has taken place since the HR was released was models that were being worked on before the acquisition. How much more development there will be, I don't know.

 

Though inMusic did acquire the software rights, they didn't acquire any of the hardware rights. The Headrush doesn't have the variable input Z circuitry that the 11 Rack had, for instance.

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3 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

1. You already know you loved your 11R. If you know you loved that, and you know you're struggling now, how much time did you spend researching Headrush?  It seems like the perfect natural evolution for you. My first thing I would look at is to return the HX Effects and examine the Gigboard which sells full price for $650. If you liked the sounds but need more IO and switches look at the full Headrush. 

 

2. Helix Native sounds identical to Helix, Helix LT, HX Effects, and HX Stomp. 

 

3. At the same time, if you tried IRs and they're working for you, that likely means you don't like the style of mic'ed cab that Helix emulates which puts you in the vast majority of the population as far as I can tell (I like them - but I seem to be a smaller group). If you want to keep the HX route, make sure you research IRs further since that's probably where you'll find your joy. 

 

 

Awesome, thanks for the thoughtful reply. The reason I'm looking at Line6 now is basically duplicate effects. On 11R (and Headrush) you can't have 4 overdrive/fuzz pedals in one patch/scene/rig. I want to run 2 delay units, 2 mod units and 2 drive units (for my *basic* rig), and the dual send/return is something I'll be using as well for an EHX SuperEgo (freeze) pedal, which I don't think any multi-fx board can do yet, and a Pigtronix Infinity looper (midi sync'ed 2-slot stereo looper, which I don't think the Helix looper can even midi-tempo sync to bar-lengths, can it?).

 

The amp sims are not as critical for me, until I start thinking about gigging without an amp, and maybe the full fat Helix has DI out so my bass guitar rig can be easier to load/unload/backup and use in-ears for monitoring? Same with my electric cello - but basically, I was looking to consolidate my pedalboard and clean up workflow. Thought about the big BOSS loop controller where you can rearrange pedal order (like the GigRig from TPS), but it cost more than the HX FX!

 

This thread all started when I saw that Helix Native was only $70 for HX owners and wondered if I should kick the 11R out of my studio, but I haven't found an *advantage* to the Helix Native software yet. If there might be one, someone let me know?!

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2 minutes ago, phil_m said:

The Headrush is kind of an 11 Rack in pedalboard format... Back in 2012, inMusic, the parent company to the Headrush brand, acquired M-Audio from Avid. Along with that sale they got a lot of the Avid software. Included in that was the 11 Rack code. So they took the code and reworked it in some ways (they split out the amp and cabs as separate blocks, for instance). I've heard some people say the Headrush sounds the same as the 11 Rack, some people say worse, and some say better... So I guess it's a matter of taste. The development team behind the Headrush, though, doesn't include any of the original 11 Rack people. I think pretty much all the development that has taken place since the HR was released was models that were being worked on before the acquisition. How much more development there will be, I don't know.

 

Interesting, I didn't know the story - I wonder if those cab sims are IR or if they are DSP? I think they really sound the same, so that part might be recycled... and the interface looks more usable than the 11R, but there are still some real limitations in routing and pedal *type* selection (can't have 4 fuzz boxes, etc).

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1 minute ago, jclark5093 said:

 

This thread all started when I saw that Helix Native was only $70 for HX owners and wondered if I should kick the 11R out of my studio, but I haven't found an *advantage* to the Helix Native software yet. If there might be one, someone let me know?!

 

I think if this the main reason for checking it out, and you think the amps are pretty comparable to each other with similar cab modeling, the rest of it comes down to workflow. Learning a new system may take some time, but do the other benefits outweigh the possible time lost to getting everything set up? I know for me the design and set-up of Native and Helix UI was pretty much clear as day from the get-go. If it comes to live performance, the Helix Floor/Rack are hand-down more functional (I think).

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5 minutes ago, jclark5093 said:

This thread all started when I saw that Helix Native was only $70 for HX owners and wondered if I should kick the 11R out of my studio, but I haven't found an *advantage* to the Helix Native software yet. If there might be one, someone let me know?!

 

Well, the advantage of Native over hardware in the studio is you can have as many instances running simultaneously as you want (or as many as your system can support). So if you have multiple tracks of guitar and you want to change something in each of them, you just change it in the UI, and that's it. With hardware you'd have to re-process everything again in real-time - very time-consuming.

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2 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

Well, the advantage of Native over hardware in the studio is you can have as many instances running simultaneously as you want (or as many as your system can support). So if you have multiple tracks of guitar and you want to change something in each of them, you just change it in the UI, and that's it. With hardware you'd have to re-process everything again in real-time - very time-consuming.

 

To be honest, since getting the 11R I kind of forgot that's a thing because I treat it like an amp (I don't record the dry-thru, so it's committed to audio very early in production) and not because I'm a purist or any nonsense, but I find that for me personally, it speeds up my workflow to just re-record something if I want to tweak tones, or work with what I have, because otherwise I'll tweak forever and never finish anything!

 

Especially working on a deadline, it's too easy to get caught up in nonsense. Plus, if I had the space, I would record with real amps every time, and I don't think I'd be looking at software to replace them, but I can definitely see how that could benefit a lot of people in commercial work (and I guess hobbyists too, but that's just personal preference if they want headphone practice and recording jams with more tones available without spending the money for a full modeler, things like NI Guitar Rig have been popular for a long time with that crowd)

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On 4/1/2019 at 8:14 AM, Kilrahi said:

 

And here's the thing. I agree with you on everything you're describing here. When it comes to figuring out how to sound like you want to sound on a new unit ABSOLUTELY. Especially with Helix, I think it has a very high learning curve. If someone comes on here and says, "Just bought Helix . . .LOVE the possibilities but feel completely lost as to how to get there . . ."

 

That I can understand, and that can be handled. However, when someone goes, "Helix sounds like fake music and my modeler doesn't."

 

That doesn't sound like a reasonable position to address. I don't think that position has been viable for a long time now. Helix, Fractal, Kemper, Headrush, Boss . . .  they all produce solid units that don't sound like fake digital recreations at this point. So when I hear that position stated it always feels like there's an underlying human prejudice that I'm not going to be able to address. 

Which is why I have stopped responding to these types of threads.

 

Seriously, I have yet to find a newish modeler that I can't dial in a pretty damn good sound in under 5 minutes. I am of the belief that if someone can't, it's definitely not the fault of the modeler (unless it is an actual faulty modeler).

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22 minutes ago, Jugghaid said:

Seriously, I have yet to find a newish modeler that I can't dial in a pretty damn good sound in under 5 minutes. I am of the belief that if someone can't, it's definitely not the fault of the modeler (unless it is an actual faulty modeler).

I'm in the same boat as far as I haven't touched a modeler since the GT-8 that I couldn't just dial in something that I'd be comfortable using pretty much right off the bat, but preconception is a lollipop, especially with guitarists. Too many people dial by number or by sight instead of by sound and that doesn't even work all the time with the same model amp from the same manufacturer.

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3 hours ago, Jugghaid said:

Which is why I have stopped responding to these types of threads.

 

Seriously, I have yet to find a newish modeler that I can't dial in a pretty damn good sound in under 5 minutes. I am of the belief that if someone can't, it's definitely not the fault of the modeler (unless it is an actual faulty modeler).

 

I am of the belief that if I can't, then either A) I don't know how to use it (in which case your reply *would* have been helpful if you pointed me in a direction of education), or B) it doesn't sound good TO ME. So I think your position is a little lofty for someone who's using a modeler... Reminds me of conversations with tube snobs, but kinda inside-out or upside-down...

 

I think the cabinets/speakers/microphones (or some combination of the 3) in Helix are either intended to be "mix friendly" or something like that, which might not lend itself to all types of music, and definitely sounds odd when just playing solo. Maybe it's actually *better* in a mix, I don't know, didn't try it yet. But the out-of-the-box sound was definitely not what I have heard from any real cab in a real iso booth. I'll assume it's either the room they used to record the cabs, or the microphones, or the mic placement "algorithm." I don't know how much of Helix is IR and how much is DSP algorithms, so I'm not sure what it is I'd like to blame in this case!

 

But either way, the amp modeling on the 11R and Helix seem to be almost identical (didn't do a phase invert test to check for null, because I assume they're not actually 100% identical, not a useful test), and when run through a 3rd party cab IR, I can't tell the difference even when PLAYING LIVE of which thing I'm hearing back. So I appreciate your position of feeling the futility of these posts, but this time I (the OP) got a great answer along the way, and solved the problem I was having, with the help of the community - which, I think, is the entire purpose of these types of forums to begin with!

 

Congratulations, internet! We did it!

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On 4/2/2019 at 1:40 PM, jclark5093 said:

 

I am of the belief that if I can't, then either A) I don't know how to use it (in which case your reply *would* have been helpful if you pointed me in a direction of education), or B) it doesn't sound good TO ME. So I think your position is a little lofty for someone who's using a modeler... Reminds me of conversations with tube snobs, but kinda inside-out or upside-down...

 

I think the cabinets/speakers/microphones (or some combination of the 3) in Helix are either intended to be "mix friendly" or something like that, which might not lend itself to all types of music, and definitely sounds odd when just playing solo. Maybe it's actually *better* in a mix, I don't know, didn't try it yet. But the out-of-the-box sound was definitely not what I have heard from any real cab in a real iso booth. I'll assume it's either the room they used to record the cabs, or the microphones, or the mic placement "algorithm." I don't know how much of Helix is IR and how much is DSP algorithms, so I'm not sure what it is I'd like to blame in this case!

 

But either way, the amp modeling on the 11R and Helix seem to be almost identical (didn't do a phase invert test to check for null, because I assume they're not actually 100% identical, not a useful test), and when run through a 3rd party cab IR, I can't tell the difference even when PLAYING LIVE of which thing I'm hearing back. So I appreciate your position of feeling the futility of these posts, but this time I (the OP) got a great answer along the way, and solved the problem I was having, with the help of the community - which, I think, is the entire purpose of these types of forums to begin with!

 

Congratulations, internet! We did it!

I'm not trying to be "lofty". I'm just stating what I have seen. And it's not a direct criticism of you, so please don't take it that way. It is a general observation. And I'm not sure what you mean by "for someone who uses a modeler". Is that supposed to be a veiled insult? Not sure. but just for the sake of clarity, I use the Helix for modeling, I also use tube amplifiers. I use them together in 4CM. I use Helix Native for recording and re-amping. I use whatever gets the best results whether it be live or in the studio.

 

The point is that there are thousands of people who are getting great tones out of new modeling gear, Helix included. Several people here had already pointed you to resources to try and assist you so me adding on to that probably would not help. And, as you said, you found a solution.

 

I'm being very literal when I say if you can't get a good sound out of a unit (Helix, Fractal, Headrush, etc) the fault is not with the unit when thousands of people are in fact getting great sounds out of it. It could be one of several factors. The ones I have seen the most often are:

 

1. Limited experience in setting up a signal chain. 

2. Limited experience in using cab sims and IR's.

3. Setting up the cabling incorrectly

4. Using insufficient monitoring (headphones, speakers, etc)

5. Really just not knowing how to dial in a tone by using hearing as opposed to what you think it should sound like with a certain setting.

6. And this happens a lot..... deciding to slag on a piece of gear because you use a different piece of gear. (and I am using the communal "you" here).

 

One of my former bandmates bought a Helix after hearing my setup and then couldn't figure out how to get a decent sound out of it. In fact, he had no idea how to use it at all and not only couldn't set up a signal chain, he couldn't even tweak an amp model. And made no effort to learn, but instead relied on me to program it for him. (He also couldn't dial in a good sound on his modded JCM800 and it took me about 30 seconds to do so). There are a lot of people like that out there that just want to plug something in and have it sound like the tone in their head. That doesn't work with a piece of gear like Helix and doesn't work for almost every tube amp I have owned over the years. But those tube amps aren't at fault any more than the Helix is. I can pretty much make any piece of gear sound like arse if I tried. :D

 

The opposite is also true as long as you have the right piece of gear (tool) for the job.

 

I'm glad you found a solution. The helix is an amazingly versatile piece of gear if utilized properly. And that can be in many different configurations, whether someone prefers FRFR or running through a tube amp, or just a power block and cab, 4CM or as a plug in..

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I came over from an 11R after initially feeling totally underwhelmed by Native.

 

I was using the 11R as an interface and just couldn’t get it to sound good.

 

I read around and saw that others had issues getting native to sound decent without L6 interfaces so I took the plunge, thinking I could return or sell the Helix unit if it still wasn’t good.

 

So glad I did, it all sounds totally different when using the Helix unit. I love my LT!

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9 hours ago, Jugghaid said:

I'm being very literal when I say if you can't get a good sound out of a unit (Helix, Fractal, Headrush, etc) the fault is not with the unit when thousands of people are in fact getting great sounds out of it. It could be one of several factors. The ones I have seen the most often are:

 

1. Limited experience in setting up a signal chain. 

2. Limited experience in using cab sims and IR's.

3. Setting up the cabling incorrectly

4. Using insufficient monitoring (headphones, speakers, etc)

5. Really just not knowing how to dial in a tone by using hearing as opposed to what you think it should sound like with a certain setting.

6. And this happens a lot..... deciding to slag on a piece of gear because you use a different piece of gear. (and I am using the communal "you" here).

 

So I can't imagine not being able to "dial in" a sound on a real amp... if someone can't do that, they have no business working in the field, imo... Now, some have techs to tweak things (internally) or set up pedals with switchers and all that, but that's when you're in "artist/performer mode" and can't think straight about all that stuff. At home, even those people can chain some pedals into an amp and then set the gain and EQ on a JCM800...

 

Monitoring could be an issue for some, especially if they're used to hearing an amp in the room and now they're switching to headphones or monitoring cab sims (FRFR or whatever). That's an adjustment period. Personally, I have a harder time playing an amp in a room because I've spent so much time in the studio in front of nearfield monitors with a mic'ed cab (real or simulated doesn't seem to matter, since the sims sound so real now) but I can see some people complaining if that's new to them (or if they use an amp and leave the cab sim on, but that's common sense stuff).

 

My point of disagreement with you here is that you say anyone should be able to get a GOOD sound out of it. And that's subjective. What sounds good to you might not be pleasing to my ears. And loads of people hate on the 11R because they say the cab sims are sub-par, but I like playing through them, and find them very easily mixed into a full arrangement (as a mix engineer). And, as an engineer, I don't think the Helix sounds so great out-of-the-box. If I was working as a tech for a guitarist and swapped their (real gear) for a Helix, they would ask why it sounds different. If I used 3rd party cab IR, they probably would never know that their amp was gone. If I used 11R cabinet, they also might not know their amp was gone. This is a downside to the Helix, plain and simple. I didn't say it sounded BAD, I didn't say it sounded like trash or that I hate it, in fact I think I said it sounded pre-eq'ed which could fit well in a mix, and if I land a pop gig touring with some pop/rock band, I'll probably get a full Helix and not an 11R, partly for that reason. It sounds pre-polished, and that means less work! But it doesn't sound as much like a real mic'ed up cab (I guess because they weren't mic'ed the same way a cab usually is in a studio or even live at a decent venue?)

 

Again. Good is subjective. Maybe the patches I made would sound good to you, so I did nothing wrong. The fault was with my preferences? So that makes it my fault for not liking it? Or is it the product's fault for not meeting my expectations? Either way, if I bought a floor Helix and didn't like it (for these reasons) I would return the Helix, not myself.

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51 minutes ago, jclark5093 said:

My point of disagreement with you here is that you say anyone should be able to get a GOOD sound out of it. And that's subjective. 

 

 

Of course it's subjective, but you've missed his point... he's not arguing that there's some universal definition for what constitutes "good" sound. He's saying that anyone should be able to achieve a good sound, whatever "good" means to them...and that the persistent inability to do so isn't the gear's fault. 

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Just now, cruisinon2 said:

 

I think you missed his point... he's not arguing what sounds "good" has some universal definition. He's saying that anyone should be able to achieve a good sound, whatever "good" means to them...and the persistent inability to do so isn't the gear's fault. 

 

But that's not a reasonable position either, because the cab sims are persistent, and color every signal chain you design. If you're using a clean power amp into a guitar cab, then fine, I'll conceded that any "amp modeler" should be as easy to dial a tone as a real amp, but when there are so many parameters, it could conceivably be easy to fail in a specific tone (without studying the manual for a month, which I'd argue *is* a fault of the device in an age when people can navigate smartphones and computers without reading manuals like we did back in the 90s).

 

In my case, my persistent inability to achieve a sound that was good to me was the gear's fault.

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1 hour ago, jclark5093 said:

 

But that's not a reasonable position either, because the cab sims are persistent, and color every signal chain you design. 

 

 

There are numerous cab sims to choose from,  and the list of 3rd party IR's is nearly endless...so you're only stuck with a "persistent" cab sound if you refuse to try others.

 

1 hour ago, jclark5093 said:

If you're using a clean power amp into a guitar cab, then fine, I'll conceded that any "amp modeler" should be as easy to dial a tone as a real amp, but when there are so many parameters, it could conceivably be easy to fail in a specific tone...

 

So having more options makes it less likely that you'll be able to dial in any one specific sound? That really doesn't make much sense. You might not find it in the first 5 minutes, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. And with the example you've cited...a modeler into a power amp and real cabinet...you're stuck with whatever the inherent characteristics of that cabinet happen to be, yet you think that will make it easier to achieve one specific tone? That's a huge contradiction. 

 

I've tried tons of gear over the years that I just plain didn't like....I suspect it happens to everybody. But there's a difference between not liking something and labeling it defective or incapable of accomplishing a particular task. For example, I loathe Mesa cabinets. 1x12, 2x12, 4x12, doesn't matter. Tried em all and I've never been happy with any of them. Yet I've heard plenty of other guys who get great tones with them, so is it Mesa's fault or mine?

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2 hours ago, jclark5093 said:

In my case, my persistent inability to achieve a sound that was good to me was the gear's fault.

 

Personally... I don't blame gear that I don't get a good sound out of... especially when quite often I like hearing that same gear when used by others.

I chalk it up as "not right for me" and don't use it. Same result, no blame.

 

32 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

For example, I loathe Mesa cabinets. 1x12, 2x12, 4x12, doesn't matter. Tried em all and I've never been happy with any of them. Yet I've heard plenty of other guys who get great tones with them, so is it Mesa's fault or mine?

 

IMO - that's a great example... and I'm right there with you on the MESA cabinets :) 

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Good IS always subjective. 

 

Take this. I hate Beethoven.

 

Yeah.

 

Nevertheless though, I'm wise enough to admit I'm the one full of lollipop on that issue. I think it's the same way today with modern modelers. I get if one isn't a person's style, but I don't get actually thinking they sound fake.

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10 minutes ago, codamedia said:

IMO - that's a great example... and I'm right there with you on the MESA cabinets :) 

 

Yeah...I don't get it. It's the "amp in the room" sound I couldn't stand. At volume they're all nasally mid-range...couldn't dial it out. Sounds like I'm playing through a 1000 lb nose... but there are guys who make it work. Different strokes. 

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26 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

Good IS always subjective. 

 

Take this. I hate Beethoven.

 

Yeah.

 

Nevertheless though, I'm wise enough to admit I'm the one full of lollipop on that issue. I think it's the same way today with modern modelers. I get if one isn't a person's style, but I don't get actually thinking they sound fake.

 

Lol... I'll go one better. I love Zeppelin. I think Jimmy Page is one hell of a songwriter... he's penned some of the most iconic rock tunes ever, and I imagine in 100 years "Stairway" will still be on the radio. But...

 

Imho, he's a miserable, sloppy guitarist. Every live track I've ever heard he sounds like he's got a broken hand. 

 

Flame away, I've heard it before, lol... you know what they say about opinions.

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19 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

Imho, he's a miserable, sloppy guitarist. 

 

I'm in in the middle.... I like his studio playing (for the most part) but have never been a fan of his live work for the exact reason you state. 

Since we are laying ourselves out to get flamed,  don't get me started on my feelings about Hendrix :) 

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1 hour ago, codamedia said:

Since we are laying ourselves out to get flamed,  don't get me started on my feelings about Hendrix :) 

 

I won't go quite so far as to say that he was responsible for more sales of Zippo lighter fluid than guitars, but it's not far off...;)

 

JK... actually, it's the same gripe. He was a songwriter, and a flamboyant performer with more stage presence than I could muster in 3 lifetimes. But creativity and the execution of complicated mechanical tasks are two very different things, and they originate in entirely different parts of the brain. It's exceedingly rare for a musician to have both skills in abundance.... most will have significantly more of one than the other. Those overflowing with both are on a very short list. 

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2 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

I loathe Mesa cabinets. 1x12, 2x12, 4x12, doesn't matter. Tried em all and I've never been happy with any of them. Yet I've heard plenty of other guys who get great tones with them, so is it Mesa's fault or mine?

 

I love the direction of this thread, but I'll say you'd be free to blame Mesa for not making a cabinet that you like. Not that they will care or change, they'll say to get a different brand, because their product is clearly not for you. Can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time, right? So it's a "fault" of the product - meaning a weakness or a flaw. The flaw is not it's sound, the flaw is that it is not universally loved. Every product has that flaw, but some of them will be perfect for you.

 

What I did *not* say, however, was that helix is defective in any way. It does what it does on purpose. And like I said, I'm sure it has a place (as do MESA cabs, though I'm not sure where that place is...) but I didn't realize it was the cab sim making it sound that way until I tried a 3rd party one. Before doing that, I tried every different cab in the software, didn't like any of them. But what I *thought* was happening was that I just didn't like HELIX! That was an error in my logic, but that was the perception at the time. It's interesting that whatever pre-eq thing they did, they did it to EVERY SINGLE CAB in the helix. So if you never thought to load 3rd party IRs, you would never know if it was the fx or amp or impedance (for the hardware) or the EQ of the amp or pedals (the filter on the Helix RAT has a real quack compared to my real RAT or the one in the 11R - not "worse," just different). I could see someone returning a floor Helix because it never sounded good to them because ALL OF THE CABS SOUND THAT WAY.

 

Sure, tweak all the parameters (which I didn't say was inherently bad, just has a bit of RTFM vibe to it), try all the models and settings, but still don't like the sound? Oh, that's because you don't like any of the X_______X in it (reverb, delay, cab, drive, etc). Of course you can use FX loops to put your own reverb/delay/drive or even amp (4cable) in it, but the fact that I have to pay for 3rd party stuff and do the work myself is an inherent weakness in this product. I'm not saying that's a problem or that it needs to change to suit me (and others with ears like mine) but it's a truth about the system, that's all. I'm not filing a complaint about it, I'm sharing my experience.

 

I now think that the full fat HELIX would be a great choice (depending on material quality, haven't felt one in person) for any touring band that uses more than 4 analog pedals and an amp bigger than a Blues Jr. I'm on board with the Line6 sound, just not their cab sims - I wouldn't want to send that to FOH... Meanwhile, I'm using the IR block (in my HX FX) for acoustic body IR for my electric cello, never once thought to use it for a speaker cab!

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38 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

Creativity and the execution of complicated mechanical tasks are two very different things, and they originate in entirely different parts of the brain. It's exceedingly rare for a musician to have both skills in abundance.... that's a very short list

 

Right back to the premise of this thread.... it may be a "short list" but it is also a "subjective list". 

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40 minutes ago, jclark5093 said:

but I'll say you'd be free to blame Mesa for not making a cabinet that you like. 

 

Really? That attitude (placing blame) would be along the lines of entitlement to me. MESA doesn't owe me anything so why should I blame them for not making a cabinet I like? Others love those cabinets.... should I blame them for loving something that I don't.... thereby encouraging MESA to make even more cabinets I don't like?

 

It seems a lot easier and less stressful for me to just buy a cabinet I do like instead of expecting MESA to fulfill my wishlist... and blaming them when they don't. 

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28 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

Really? That attitude (placing blame) would be along the lines of entitlement to me. MESA doesn't owe me anything so why should I blame them for not making a cabinet I like? Others love those cabinets.... should I blame them for loving something that I don't.... thereby encouraging MESA to make even more cabinets I don't like?

 

It seems a lot easier and less stressful for me to just buy a cabinet I do like instead of expecting MESA to fulfill my wishlist... and blaming them when they don't. 

 

"Blame" is a strange word in this thread in general... I don't know who brought up the idea of blaming companies, but I think it's more along the lines of MESA marketing a cab that is "perfect for (insert your genre here) on stage!" and then you try it and you're *let down*. Were you let down by your own preferences, or the cab? Was I let down by the Line6 cabinets, or was I let down by my inability to love that sound? That's the crazy part of the attitude I'm seeing here.

 

I'm sure everyone agrees that, for the most part, if you don't love a piece of gear, move on and you'll find the glass slipper you're looking for. But the odd thing in my Helix story is that the slipper fit perfectly, except the heel strap was a bother - but I didn't realize that's why my toes hurt! (I'm a rock climber, so this is actually a thing, that your toes can hurt from an ill-fitting heel cup!). Basically I didn't know where to start in my search for the "bug" in my signal chain, and that's why I came here, assuming people might know what I was talking about. I think next time someone gets a bad sound out of a Helix, people should respond with 3rd party IRs first (along with a patch recommendation for whatever artist tone they're after?)

 

I've always believed that speakers have the most tonal contribution to a guitar tone, followed by cabinet, then pickup style, then preamp/tonestack, then scale length, then fret material, and *then* strings (for people who argue those details when using high gain pedals...) but in a recording situation (or live PA), the microphone choice and placement are probably 2nd or 3rd in the list. These are the *main things* that get most people to like Tone A vs Tone B (if they're modeled, real, etc, in a blindfold recording playback) and that's the thing that's got Line6 "signature" sound on it in this case (in my opinion). And that seems to be a choice they made, instead of giving me full-range normally mic'ed cab sims (or IR? I still don't know if it's DSP), and maybe that's so it will immediately fit in a live mix easier without EQ so you don't mud up a band? Not sure, but it sure as heck doesn't sound like a regular 57 stuck on the grill cloth of a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe 12" speaker! Of course a 57 stuck on the grill cloth needs EQ, and maybe the Helix doesn't, but for *some* that might be a choice we don't want made for us... or at least advertise that it's happening so we aren't surprised by the sound? idk...

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29 minutes ago, jclark5093 said:

I think next time someone gets a bad sound out of a Helix, people should respond with 3rd party IRs first

 

In fairness, that is one of the go to suggestions on these forums.... including the 2nd reply in this thread. 

 

This isn't because the stock cabinets are bad .... it's because a lot of player don't like the mic position used to capture the stock cabs. Although the stock cabs are remarkably accurate (with a mic pointed at the center of a speaker)... we don't have the option to move that position toward the edge of the cone (like many of us prefer) so we have to resort to 3rd party IR's. However - we have to stay mindful that there are a lot of people that do like that method to mic a cabinet.... and they still get good results, even if we don't. 

 

I am hopeful that the 2.8 update might provide a somewhat elegant solution to the problem. It will include a "tilt" EQ... and I'm looking forward to trying that behind a cabinet model.

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31 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

In fairness, that is one of the go to suggestions on these forums.... including the 2nd reply in this thread. 

 

This isn't because the stock cabinets are bad .... it's because a lot of player don't like the mic position used to capture the stock cabs. Although the stock cabs are remarkably accurate (with a mic pointed at the center of a speaker)... we don't have the option to move that position toward the edge of the cone (like many of us prefer) so we have to resort to 3rd party IR's. However - we have to stay mindful that there are a lot of people that do like that method to mic a cabinet.... and they still get good results, even if we don't. 

 

I am hopeful that the 2.8 update might provide a somewhat elegant solution to the problem. It will include a "tilt" EQ... and I'm looking forward to trying that behind a cabinet model.

I mean L6 did kind of address this by releasing their own FREE IRs, which are actually quite good, if a little to hi-fi for some people. The lack of mic movement is kind of a glaring defect in cabinet modeling, I think. I personally would have a preferred an Edge-Center adjustment over a Distance adjustment right out of the gate. If they could manage BOTH on the stock cabs, I probably wouldn't need IRs (at least for live playing), but I seem to remember a couple of earlier generation modelers with those adjustments and those cabs were straight trash.

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5 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

I've tried tons of gear over the years that I just plain didn't like....I suspect it happens to everybody. But there's a difference between not liking something and labeling it defective or incapable of accomplishing a particular task. For example, I loathe Mesa cabinets. 1x12, 2x12, 4x12, doesn't matter. Tried em all and I've never been happy with any of them. Yet I've heard plenty of other guys who get great tones with them, so is it Mesa's fault or mine?

 

I'm in the same boat. In fact I'm not a huge fan of V30 speakers. And I play mostly hard rock/metal. I much prefer Creambacks, Greenbacks, and G12T-75's to V30's.

 

I think some of it has to do with amp pairing and some of it has to do with playing style as well as the actual speaker. But there's nothing wrong with V30's. My lead guitar player in my metal band makes them sound glorious with his Engl rig. I'm the problem, not the cone.

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2 hours ago, jclark5093 said:

 

I love the direction of this thread, but I'll say you'd be free to blame Mesa for not making a cabinet that you like. Not that they will care or change, they'll say to get a different brand, because their product is clearly not for you. Can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time, right? So it's a "fault" of the product - meaning a weakness or a flaw. The flaw is not it's sound, the flaw is that it is not universally loved. Every product has that flaw, but some of them will be perfect for you.

 

What I did *not* say, however, was that helix is defective in any way.

And I'm not saying that you are claiming helix is defective. I am, however, stating I have seen that claim from a whole lotta people.

 

And I can not agree with the assertion that the Mesa cab has an inherent fault. Just like my personal example with V30s. Other people can make them sound great to me. I can't. The fault lies with me, not the speaker.

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43 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

I mean L6 did kind of address this by releasing their own FREE IRs, which are actually quite good, if a little to hi-fi for some people. The lack of mic movement is kind of a glaring defect in cabinet modeling, I think. I personally would have a preferred an Edge-Center adjustment over a Distance adjustment right out of the gate. If they could manage BOTH on the stock cabs, I probably wouldn't need IRs (at least for live playing), but I seem to remember a couple of earlier generation modelers with those adjustments and those cabs were straight trash.

And to me, a lot of this is moot for live playing. I only use cab modeling or IR's for recording as I decided I prefer playing the helix in 4CM through tube heads and actual speaker cabs live.

 

I still love having a tube half stack (usually with 2 heads running stereo into a stereo 412 cab) behind me on stage for a LOT of reasons, but dynamic feel is the most important one. Weight is the least. :D

 

I bought several different ownhammer IR's because I do prefer them to many of the line 6 cab models, but there are some gems in the Line 6 cabs as well, depending on how you use them. Especially in a 2 cab setup.

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