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How Long Until They Replace The X Series.

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I own a HD500 and want to upgrade to a HD Pro X.  How long do you think it will be before a new product line is released that obsoletes the X series?

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Well, it depends what you consider obsolete. Externally, they aren't that different. The layout seems ideal. If you find the footswitch HD500 LED's not distinct enough, you could rough up the switch casings with sandpaper and paint them flat black. Rather than release new floor boards, they might offer DSP upgrades at some point. It depends on how much DSP newer models use. It might be a while b4 models start using much more DSP. They just did an overhaul of the whole process. It might be another 5 years or so b4 that becomes an issue. I'm curious as to how much spare ROM is already onboard for new models. Again, that could possibly be upgraded with snap in circuit boards, doubling DSP power and/or ROM every year or so. Not a bad business plan to support existing hardware.

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It's anyone's guess at this point.  I personally don't see anything new coming out for a few years but it depends on what the competition does.  Which right now I don't see anything in the price point of PODHDs that's any better and I don't see that changing anytime soon. 

 

As far as upgrading to the Pro X from the HD500, I guess there's some I/O stuff you really need that makes it worth it for you.  I'm sure you're aware that they will sound the same otherwise.  Maybe you can get an extra effect in your signal chain that you can't get now.  I haven't seen where the newer DSP is that much of an increase.

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 How long do you think it will be before a new product line is released that obsoletes the X series?

Why would it become obsolete!!? There will always be sounds that you won't be able to get with any other product. I, like many,  already have a few other modelers and still keep the HD for many of the great sounds that are in it. I didn't upgrade to the X series because I don't need the extra horse power, the amps and sounds are still the same.  At any rate I'm watching for NAMM 2014, digitech and Line 6 will probably announce new products.

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I was using the term obsolete as it pertains to product management. But I think it makes sense to hold off the purchase until NAM 14.

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This might be off topic...but I still don't understand why they have not or are unable to offer add on packs for purchase.  It seems if the infrastructure of the other modelers they have come out with in the past can handle this task, that these should be able to as well.

 

Don't get me wrong I love the 500 and have been able to achieve some excellent tones.  But I'd be okay if they allowed you to delete some of the less used models and choose some that might get used more.  For instance I don't see myself ever using the gibtone or the light blue colored model(name?).  Or if they upped the sample quality of the existing ones even more.

 

I know this isn't a wish list thread so I'll stop.... 

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I doubt that this late in the HD line's life cycle that we're going to see "model packs" added.  As far as the next series goes, a manufacturer is always working on the next generation.  The question is "when?"  Even though the "X" series was little more than a face-lift, it isn't that old.  I wouldn't expect to see something new until late next year, at the earliest. . . but I could be wrong.  We may know more after Winter NAMM.

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They've too busy pimping overpriced PA equipment to interface with all this stuff to make the recording I/O, amp additions, and various other tweaks and fixes (that should have happened a year after the HD series came out) we've been looking for. The next generation won't even be able to plug into a regular amp, it'll be some weird proprietary plug that only connects to their $3000 mixer and $1200 speakers.

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Hehe...yeah, it's not a good business plan.  Most Pod owners aren't interested in or can't afford thousands more on PA gear, but they might spend ~$100 more here and there on DSP/ROM upgrades and model packs.  Pod owners should request these things here: http://line6.ideascale.com/

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They've too busy pimping overpriced PA equipment to interface with all this stuff to make the recording I/O, amp additions, and various other tweaks and fixes (that should have happened a year after the HD series came out) we've been looking for. The next generation won't even be able to plug into a regular amp, it'll be some weird proprietary plug that only connects to their $3000 mixer and $1200 speakers.

That's very true. It shouldn't take that long to even release a POD Farm HD but they seem to really like to milk the product line. I haven't been thrilled with their latest marketing since the release of the HD series. I also don't think they'r making the right decisions. POD Farm HD would be the best software modeler, yet they still sell over a decade old POD Farm....The HD series is pretty good, but I'm almost convinced that the algorithms for all these amp models would sound so much better if they didn't include everything and the kitchen sink in these POD HDs. If they release HD amp Farm with algorithms that aren't scaled down in order to fit all the effects, the models will sound so much better..But hey they don't have to do anything until the competition heats up. Next month if digitech releases upgraded amp modeling, It will be a different ball game.

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a DSP upgrade will never happen.... unless its a whole new product.

I can see how it wouldn't be necessary until a next generation modeling archetype.  If you know that for sure, do you know how much spare ROM is on board for new models?

 

Deano, what do you mean by this? "...I'm almost convinced that the algorithms for all these amp models would sound so much better if they didn't include everything and the kitchen sink in these POD HDs".

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no idea about other details... the topic has just came up before and that's the answer... the dsp chip is directly soldered to the board and not socketed.

 

I can see how it wouldn't be necessary until a next generation modeling archetype.  If you know that for sure, do you know how much spare ROM is on board for new models?

 

Deano, what do you mean by this? "...I'm almost convinced that the algorithms for all these amp models would sound so much better if they didn't include everything and the kitchen sink in these POD HDs".

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Deano, what do you mean by this? "...I'm almost convinced that the algorithms for all these amp models would sound so much better if they didn't include everything and the kitchen sink in these POD HDs".

DSP resources that are allocated and made available to run the programming/algorithms of the amp modeling are reduced significantly to allow running of eight effects that can include DSP intensive effects such as reverbs, harmony, etc. If more DSP is available to run amp models, they will simply sound and react better if that additional DSP is utilized to run  more detailed algorithms..To be fair this applies to all modelers including AXE FX II and KEmper....

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I'm pretty sure the amp models are not compromised when more FX are run.  I don't think these units are programed that way.  They run all models at full quality at all times, unless there are quality settings for each model...and I don't think there are.  When the DSP load  is exceeded, no more FX can be added.  Some PC amp modelers have various quality settings that do compromise the models to accommodate CPU power.

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DSP resources that are allocated and made available to run the programming/algorithms of the amp modeling are reduced significantly to allow running of eight effects ...

Do you mean this is happening dynamically? I'm not aware of it - I think the amp model algorithms are independent of how many or which FX are being used. The DSP limit is reached at some point as you add DSP intensive FX, but I don't think the amp modeling algorithm is ever adjusted/compromised as more FX are added.

 

If you mean that they could have designed the device so that all available DSP (or more of it) was used to run more DSP-intensive amp model algorithms, at the expense of being able to add FX, then I,m sure that's true. The resulting product would be just an amp modeler, designed to be used with an M9/13 for the FX. That's just not the design approach they took.

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I was reading on the Fractal forums that they have some special High Def versions of some of their amp models but they run into the DSP limit when using them with certain intensive effects.  Hmmm, sounds familiar...

 

My understanding of the way these DSP chips work in the PODHD is there is no compromise of quality depending on DSP load.  It either works or says DSP limit reached.  I would think it's the same way for Fractal or Kemper or anyone else.

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Do you mean this is happening dynamically?

No, and I doubt anyone is able to do this dynamically considering all the products in the market. Software plugins make you chose a higher resolution at the expense of more CPU usage.   The Kemper did have an issue with aliasing noise when you play the very high register notes using distortion due to DSP limits.

 

 I say that because I think that the algorithms in the POD HD can be or may be  better than those even in the AXE FX II if the full algorithm were utilized with the same processing power used in the AXE II. I also happen to think that where you draw the line of how much to allocate to amp modeling and effects is probably shortchanging the amp models in the HD series. For me, I'd rather see a product that focuses on AMP modeling. I compare with the Eleven Rack that probably has similar processing power but much less effects and no dual path, and it does sound and feel more natural.

 

Still I love the sounds that I get from the HD but I feel that they're almost choking as they beg for more DSP. That's when I become certain that many of us who are more concerned with amp modeling, would probably be much happier with the sound if the algorithms were allowed to utilize more DSP.  

 

For those who have the M series, I also would be willing to bet that the same effect probably sounds better in the M series because the effects are also shortchanged DSP in the HD series. The reverbs tails don't sound that smooth in the HD series but since I don't have an M series product I can't confirm this. So the issue for me is why create a product that's a compromise for  both amp modeling and effects modeling when there's already a dedicated effects product line M9 and M13. I know many who use the HD series for effects only are also having issues and most opt for the M series if they like line 6 effects.

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Line 6 offered Model Packs with the XT but not the X3L.  As I remember the user community really liked it..........One can only surmise that Line 6 did some sort of analysis and came to the conclusion that the extra business/good will was not worth the effort.  At the end of the day we have to agree that Line 6 like other companies is driven by the profit motive.  You have to believe Line 6 knows about the Model Pack market.  I feel your pain, but at some time you gotta accept...........it ain't gonna happen.

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I don't know anything so please take this only as my speculation but I think there will be modelpacks (either free or paid).

 

First, the reason for no X3 modelpack  was probably because the POD X3 line was a cumulation of years of development and HD line was already in making by the modelling engineers, nothing was being done on X3 modelling anymore. X3 was basically repackaging of XT + all modelpacks (as far as modelling goes).

 

Now, look at the number of bass mics in HD500/Pro. I don't believe they would model all of these for one bass amp model. There is gonna be more. The ROM certainly won't be a problem, I was amazed how many models they could add to XT since it initially shipped with 32 models, I think, and it grew to more than a hundred with modelpacks.

 

So I certainly expect more bass models, probably some mic pres (to utilize the XLR connector) and since this is after all mainly a guitar gear, I believe guitar players cannot be left behind.

 

But to be honest I don't care much for new amps, I can get all the types of sounds I need. If they only allowed to use one amp with two cabs (or even better one amp + one cab + two mics) to save DSP that would be perfect. But my main wish is multichannel recording over USB (wet and dry) and at least reamping over USB or preferably POD Farm HD. And yes, please fix some obvious shenanigans like HD Edit tempo bugs or missing clipping indicator.

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I suppose it's possible that the actual HD models are higher resolution than the ones in the units, but I doubt that.  They probably created models in accordance with the affordable DSP power of the day, which is probably ~10x or more than what it was when the first POD series came out.  Back in ~2000 I bought a Creative Labs SB Live PC soundcard for (~$100?).  It had a SOTA 1GHz EMU brand DSP on board.  I don't think this type of modeling is quite as power hungry as Liquid Audio or Nebula tech, but it might be.  Line 6 could pack 8 1GHz DSP chips into a Pod HD pedal.  They probably aren't very expensive in bulk.  Even 4 1GHz chips is a massive amount of DSP -- more than enough to run some Nebula level models.

 

Makes sense, Kronda.  I'd find it hard to believe if they aren't modeling more amps as we debate -- unless not enough people are requesting them.  I wouldn't be surprised if they model some of the new Bogner boutique amps.  A Two Rock would be nice at some point, and maybe one of the other Metal amps those guys are always prattling on about. :P  A Fender Super Reverb or the like would be pretty cool.  Those are gaining popularity in the burgeoning surf-related genres.  I don't see them increasing audio channels on the units, but I guess it's possible over USB.  Dual cabs and/or mics per amp would be a real boon, but most people might usually just use dual amps anyway.  Configuring 4 mics on a dual amp cab setup might result in a financial drain on the mental health system.

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The recent announcement of Yamaha's acquisition of Line6 makes this a much more interesting question...

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No, and I doubt anyone is able to do this dynamically considering all the products in the market. Software plugins make you chose a higher resolution at the expense of more CPU usage. The Kemper did have an issue with aliasing noise when you play the very high register notes using distortion due to DSP limits.

 

I say that because I think that the algorithms in the POD HD can be or may be better than those even in the AXE FX II if the full algorithm were utilized with the same processing power used in the AXE II. I also happen to think that where you draw the line of how much to allocate to amp modeling and effects is probably shortchanging the amp models in the HD series. For me, I'd rather see a product that focuses on AMP modeling. I compare with the Eleven Rack that probably has similar processing power but much less effects and no dual path, and it does sound and feel more natural.

 

Still I love the sounds that I get from the HD but I feel that they're almost choking as they beg for more DSP. That's when I become certain that many of us who are more concerned with amp modeling, would probably be much happier with the sound if the algorithms were allowed to utilize more DSP.

 

For those who have the M series, I also would be willing to bet that the same effect probably sounds better in the M series because the effects are also shortchanged DSP in the HD series. The reverbs tails don't sound that smooth in the HD series but since I don't have an M series product I can't confirm this. So the issue for me is why create a product that's a compromise for both amp modeling and effects modeling when there's already a dedicated effects product line M9 and M13. I know many who use the HD series for effects only are also having issues and most opt for the M series if they like line 6 effects.

Missed this one. Shot!

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The recent announcement of Yamaha's acquisition of Line6 makes this a much more interesting question...

They'll replace the X series with the Y series;)

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