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Experiments With Helix Master Volume Settings


DunedinDragon
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thanks for the help!  had somehow missed that video.  Would love to try taking that knob out of the equation for the mixer, but at the moment, the helix has decided to not recognize any input...just went silent in the middle of practice.... this happened a few weeks ago and then came back.. this time, not coming back yet... have submitted f/u to original ticket, but if anyone has any ideas.. pleas share!  I have done all the standard cable troubleshooting and will try full reset/ restore next... wish me luck!

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On 8/27/2019 at 5:17 AM, DunedinDragon said:

I have my global settings so that the XLR out is set to Mic level and is disconnected from Helix big knob.  This does two things.  First, It sets my XLR output as if the Helix big knob was set to full, but it sends the signal at the much lower Mic signal level so that it's easier to adjust at the mixing board.  Secondly it allows me to use the Helix big knob to control my 1/4" output to my stage monitor independently from my signal to the board to get an appropriate stage mix with the rest of the band.

The level coming into the board will likely be pretty hot, but can be adjusted by the gain or trim knob.  This varies from mixer to mixer depending on their preamps, but having the signal at Mic level keeps it manageable.  Understand that the position of the mixer gain knob has NOTHING to do with unity level, and unity level on the Helix has nothing to do with unity level at the mixer.  Unity level is determined by the incoming signal and measured by the signal lights on the mixer which is controlled by the mixer gain knob.  If you're using a Mackie board you would have to select PFL (Pre Fader Listen) on that channel and watch your signal lights and set the mixer gain knob such that the signal lights hover right around unity or zero db.  This is made much easier if you have your XLR output set to Mic level.

In my case I'm using a QSC TM30 mixer.  With my Helix XLR output disconnected from the Helix big knob and set to Mic level, my channel volumes on my amps tend to be somewhere in the range of 4 to 6 on most amps or a bit higher on the lower wattage amps like the Roland JC120, but pretty much in line with what I'd expect out of the real amps.  All of my IRs stay consistently at -18db.

 

So now this might be a stupid (or blatantly obvious to some) question, but now I'm guessing I should be checking patch/snapshot levels in a DAW with the XLR out setting maxed?  We have a Yamaha TF digital board and I tried the XLR disconnected from the big knob bit this weekend and I had to have the channel gain at 2 to avoid constant peak.  It is Mic level and still HOT AF to the board.  


Would an easy enough solution be to run max volume Helix into my board, then board to laptop and set patch levels in a DAW?  I would much rather have the big knob disengaged playing live but don't need such a hot signal going to the board.  Sorry if I sound like a dunce...just trying to be clear on my end. Great post BTW.

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4 hours ago, HeartySalmon said:

 

So now this might be a stupid (or blatantly obvious to some) question, but now I'm guessing I should be checking patch/snapshot levels in a DAW with the XLR out setting maxed?  We have a Yamaha TF digital board and I tried the XLR disconnected from the big knob bit this weekend and I had to have the channel gain at 2 to avoid constant peak.  It is Mic level and still HOT AF to the board.  


Would an easy enough solution be to run max volume Helix into my board, then board to laptop and set patch levels in a DAW?  I would much rather have the big knob disengaged playing live but don't need such a hot signal going to the board.  Sorry if I sound like a dunce...just trying to be clear on my end. Great post BTW.

 

The actual position of the gain knob on your mixer channel is actually irrelevant as the whole purpose of that gain knob is to get your signal consistent with the levels of all the other signals coming into the board.  That being said, it's also quite possible you may have the settings within your patch (such as amp channel volume, compressor gain, or distortion output, etc) set too high which then causes the overall output volume to be overly hot.

One way to check this is to check the relative volume level of each of the blocks within a patch by individually turning them on and off to check that you have a fairly consistent volume level within the patch while listening to it to ensure you aren't building up excess volume through the course of your preset.  I check my overall levels at home by running them through a small mixing board and shoot for signal level of roughly -4db on my 1/4" L/Mono out (line level) with my Helix volume knob set at the 3 o'clock position.  My XLR output at mic level going into the board is still a bit hotter than the level coming off of a vocal microphone, but that's easily adjusted by the gain knob on my channel.  If done correctly your faders should provide a pretty good visual reference of where each channel sits in the overall mix, and the faders are really the only thing that matters in terms of what's going to the FOH.  Same with your aux or monitor dial or fader levels for the monitors.

But ultimately all that matters at the board is to get your signal at a consistent level with all the other channels coming into the board regardless of the physical setting of the gain knob on your channel.  The position of the gain knob doesn't matter but the fader levels do.

 

EDIT:  I also noticed that the TF board has a digital gain adjustment for each channel which may be a way of adjusting an overly hot signal.  I have something on my QSC TM-30 called a DAC (Digital Audio Control) which does that.

 

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13 hours ago, HeartySalmon said:

 

So now this might be a stupid (or blatantly obvious to some) question, but now I'm guessing I should be checking patch/snapshot levels in a DAW with the XLR out setting maxed?  We have a Yamaha TF digital board and I tried the XLR disconnected from the big knob bit this weekend and I had to have the channel gain at 2 to avoid constant peak.  It is Mic level and still HOT AF to the board.  


Would an easy enough solution be to run max volume Helix into my board, then board to laptop and set patch levels in a DAW?  I would much rather have the big knob disengaged playing live but don't need such a hot signal going to the board.  Sorry if I sound like a dunce...just trying to be clear on my end. Great post BTW.

 

Just to address your question in general terms if you previously used the big volume knob to control your XLR out levels, chances are that once you switch over to having the XLR outs not controlled, which defaults them to max output, this will absolutely necessitate reviewing and editing your patches and probably having to reduce block levels, most typically the 'Ch Vol'.  The only users who will not need to do this are those who ran their big volume knob all the way up before switching over. I know when I switched over to this configuration I had to ratchet back the levels on many of my presets. If your experience mirrors mine plugging the Helix into several different boards over the years, be prepared for the input/gain levels on the channel for the Helix to be set quite a bit lower than most other channels on the board and to potentially have a pad engaged if your mixer provides one.

 

 

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3 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

The actual position of the gain knob on your mixer channel is actually irrelevant as the whole purpose of that gain knob is to get your signal consistent with the levels of all the other signals coming into the board. 

 

 

Yes.  Totally get that.  I was just surprised that the setting was so much lower for that channel than, say, the other guitar player's mic'd cab.

 

3 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

One way to check this is to check the relative volume level of each of the blocks within a patch by individually turning them on and off to check that you have a fairly consistent volume level within the patch while listening to it to ensure you aren't building up excess volume through the course of your preset.  I check my overall levels at home by running them through a small mixing board and shoot for signal level of roughly -4db on my 1/4" L/Mono out (line level) with my Helix volume knob set at the 3 o'clock position.  My XLR output at mic level going into the board is still a bit hotter than the level coming off of a vocal microphone, but that's easily adjusted by the gain knob on my channel. 

 

This is the info I was looking to verify.  Thanks for making it perfectly clear.

 

3 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

EDIT:  I also noticed that the TF board has a digital gain adjustment for each channel which may be a way of adjusting an overly hot signal.  I have something on my QSC TM-30 called a DAC (Digital Audio Control) which does that.

 

On the TF board, the digital gain is the gain...if that makes sense.  There's a lovely little image like a tuner that lets you know if your gain for that input is too low, too high, or just right (see photo).  Once I got the gain settled down, the faders looked much like you'd expect instead of my channel being at -50 and everyone else being at or near 0.

 

2 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

 

Just to address your question in general terms if you previously used the big volume knob to control your XLR out levels, chances are that once you switch over to having the XLR outs not controlled, which defaults them to max output, this will absolutely necessitate reviewing and editing your patches and probably having to reduce block levels, most typically the 'Ch Vol'.  The only users who will not need to do this are those who ran their big volume knob all the way up before switching over. I know when I switched over to this configuration I had to ratchet back the levels on many of my presets. If your experience mirrors mine plugging the Helix into several diifferent boards over the years be prepared to have the input/gain levels on the channel for the Helix to be set quite a bit lower than most other channels on the board and/or to have a pad engaged if your mixer provides one.

 

 

 

Based on your and DunedinDragon's replies, I definitely need to go back and adjust patch volumes if I want to continue with having the XLR out disconnected, which I do.  So that's what I'll do now.  I have some time before the next gig so I should be able to get it done.  If not - I'll stick with the big knob for now. 

 

Thank you guys so much for taking the time to outline some of the finer points. 

TF gain.jpg

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Forgive me if I am missing the obvious but is there not a way to control the overall output level of the xlr out in the software?

 

Edit: Nevermind. I am just getting back into the Helix and haven't used one in a while.

 

So you all are basically gain-staging your presets so that you end up with a certain max output level that is balanced across all presets. I have always done that to a point but I am usually somewhere between 12:00-3:00 on the master volume with the xlr outs disconnected. It would certainly be cool if we could have an output level control in the software. The Kemper has a simple output mixer that controls the different outputs separately as well as which ones are affected by the mater volume knob.

 

-Frank

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11 hours ago, frankencat said:

Forgive me if I am missing the obvious but is there not a way to control the overall output level of the xlr out in the software?

 

Edit: Nevermind. I am just getting back into the Helix and haven't used one in a while.

 

So you all are basically gain-staging your presets so that you end up with a certain max output level that is balanced across all presets. I have always done that to a point but I am usually somewhere between 12:00-3:00 on the master volume with the xlr outs disconnected. It would certainly be cool if we could have an output level control in the software. The Kemper has a simple output mixer that controls the different outputs separately as well as which ones are affected by the mater volume knob.

 

-Frank

 

I'm not sure what the point would be of an output level control.  You already control your output level with the master volume.  If you disconnect the XLR from the master volume it sends the signal at full volume (ideally to a mixing board).  The mixing board then controls the level of the incoming signal to match it with all the other signals coming in on other channels.  It's not your responsibility to gain stage the mixing board signal.  That's what the mixing board does best.

The idea of being able to control one output such as the 1/4" outs via the master volume separate from the output to the mixer is simply to allow you to have control over your on stage level of volume without affecting the signal volume going to the mixer.

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18 hours ago, frankencat said:

Forgive me if I am missing the obvious but is there not a way to control the overall output level of the xlr out in the software?

 

18 hours ago, frankencat said:

It would certainly be cool if we could have an output level control in the software. The Kemper has a simple output mixer that controls the different outputs separately as well as which ones are affected by the mater volume knob.

 

Well.... there is a method to decide what gets controlled by the master volume knob, so that is a non-issue. 

 

If you want software control over the XLR outs separately, I have mentioned a work around a few times in these forums, and even in this thread. Of course, this does not help if you are already utilizing the global EQ. 

 

Assign the global EQ to XLR only and leave all EQ settings flat (no cuts or boosts). Now you can adjust the volume of the XLR outs with the "level" parameter in the Global EQ. 

 

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12 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

 

Well.... there is a method to decide what gets controlled by the master volume knob, so that is a non-issue. 

 

If you want software control over the XLR outs separately, I have mentioned a work around a few times in these forums, and even in this thread. Of course, this does not help if you are already utilizing the global EQ. 

 

Assign the global EQ to XLR only and leave all EQ settings flat (no cuts or boosts). Now you can adjust the volume of the XLR outs with the "level" parameter in the Global EQ. 

 

 

Great idea. I actually though about that but since I didn't have the unit in front of me I didn't try it. Thanks for mentioning that little workaround.

 

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