Fuzzy artifact on Amps in the Helix

[ddenise]

Does anyone else hear (in their Helix) the artifacts that are on the audio posted in this thread?  https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/helix-tell-me-what-im-hearing-here.1826645/  There are many topics on this but all the threads seem to get sidetracked in other discussions.  

 

I have the latest firmware and I definitely hear it on multiple amp cabs in my Helix.  I've changed guitars, patches, all the components I can think of as variables and I believe it is related to the Amp cab in the Helix.  I haven't found how to eliminate it but here's what I find minimizes it:

 

1. The main thing that seems to influence it is the volume knob on your guitar.  As you get towards the max guitar volume, it definitely shows up more.  Reducing the volume will eventually make the sound disappear (before the whole sound is gone).
2. Different cab models display different degrees of this.  the Tweed Blues Brt amp seems to be the "cleanest".  
3. Raising the Bias setting minimizes, but doesn't eliminate the sound.

 

The way i compared the cabs by setting my guitar volume about 7 or 8, signal directly into the cab. Then I would just change which cab was activated or not.

 

The conclusion I have is that this sound is actually the "driven" portion of the amp, as you increase the input into the amp, this shows up.  If that's the case, then it would really not be a "problem" in that it is just the digital simulation of the amp being driven.  So it seems most noticeable as the amp is just starting to be driven harder.  Once you get past a certain level, it is still there, just not as noticeable.

 

Can anyone else weigh in?   If you've been able to eliminate this, I'd love to know how.

 

[Kilrahi]

1 hour ago, ddenise said:

Does anyone else hear (in their Helix) the artifacts that are on the audio posted in this thread?  https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/helix-tell-me-what-im-hearing-here.1826645/  There are many topics on this but all the threads seem to get sidetracked in other discussions.  

 

I have the latest firmware and I definitely hear it on multiple amp cabs in my Helix.  I've changed guitars, patches, all the components I can think of as variables and I believe it is related to the Amp cab in the Helix.  I haven't found how to eliminate it but here's what I find minimizes it:

 

1. The main thing that seems to influence it is the volume knob on your guitar.  As you get towards the max guitar volume, it definitely shows up more.  Reducing the volume will eventually make the sound disappear (before the whole sound is gone).
2. Different cab models display different degrees of this.  the Tweed Blues Brt amp seems to be the "cleanest".  
3. Raising the Bias setting minimizes, but doesn't eliminate the sound.

 

The way i compared the cabs by setting my guitar volume about 7 or 8, signal directly into the cab. Then I would just change which cab was activated or not.

 

The conclusion I have is that this sound is actually the "driven" portion of the amp, as you increase the input into the amp, this shows up.  If that's the case, then it would really not be a "problem" in that it is just the digital simulation of the amp being driven.  So it seems most noticeable as the amp is just starting to be driven harder.  Once you get past a certain level, it is still there, just not as noticeable.

 

Can anyone else weigh in?   If you've been able to eliminate this, I'd love to know how.

 

 

Oddly enough, today at lunch I decided to read whatever I could find today on the "squirrels" mythos and stumbled upon that thread from 2017.  

 

As I sat there reading, I asked myself, "Wow, I wonder when this is going to surface on the Line 6 page, or if it already has."

 

Well, I got a response to that karmic thought real quick. 

[DunedinDragon]

I have no idea how you're getting this problem.  In over 200 presets I've built over the last 3 years on the Helix across a wide range of styles and genres using six different types of guitars and a fairly wide range of Helix amp models I've never experienced anything like what's being described here either with Helix cabs or with IRs.  But then you weren't very specific about the guitar you're using or the general configuration of mics and placements on your cabinet nor your output system, so it's hard to gauge what might be influencing the sound you're getting.  From your description it does sound like a pretty good description of a clipped signal.

[BBD_123]

What are you playing (pickup type) and what are you monitoring through?

 

This is a JB bridge, tone and vol wide open, into Helix with guitar pad ON, Placater dirty, master vol at 12 o'clock, monitoring through Beyerdynamic 770 pros 80 ohm...

 

Can you hear fizz in this through your rig?

 

Open a new preset and double-click and the patch should load direct to Helix Edit.

 

 

 

 

Placater squirrl.hlx

[Kilrahi]

Just to be clear, I don't think ddenise is the one who recorded that clip. Ddenise is saying that they hear the same thing. 

[BBD_123]

Sure, got that, but what I don't get is the 'ratty' tail that the OP at TGP got. I suspect some fuzz blocks might put it there, though, but not the amp blocks if basic setup is okay...

[Kilrahi]

There are such a huge wide range of opinions on what it is people are hearing. 

 

Personally, I think they're hearing the same thing I have always heard for as long as I can imagine with regular speakers and amps. Even when I was six I would put my head up to a speaker and hear all kinds of artifacts (rattling cones, sub harmonics, crossover distortion, etc.).

 

At its most basic a modeler starts out with the real deal recorded with as accurate a microphone as they can find. BECAUSE all of those artifacts exist in the real deal to some extent, they will show up in any modeler doing the real deal.  Personally, I don't know of a way you could even dial that out - though admittedly some people argue that the Axe has managed to dial it out to a great degree. 

 

When I first heard it with the HX Stomp I actually stopped and had the thought, "Wow, it even captures that kind of stuff realistically!" 

 

So for me it was a wow factor. For others they want to rip out their kidney's and stuff them in their ears. 

[Verne-Bunsen]

I concur with Kilrahi, although I came to the conclusion by a different path. I never heard “fizz” until I purchased Helix. I was more critical and meticulous with my tones with Helix than I ever had been with my tube amp rigs, and when I heard the fizz I said, “What on earth is this noise?!” I fought to eliminate it for quite a while until eventually I plugged back in to my tube amp, and guess what I heard..... the same kind of fizz! And after that I heard it on Van Halen songs and AC/DC songs and Zakk Wylde songs and all over, it’s a guitar amp noise. The way we listen to modelers is different which I think contributes to the fizz being more prominent, and I think we are far more critical of them than we are of our tube amp rigs because we just expect that the tube amp is going to sound great, it doesn’t have to “prove it” in the same way. I’ve been through the whole curve on the fizz thing and have settled on it simply being a part of guitar amp sound. I use high cuts to attenuate it in the same way that a guitar cabinet naturally attenuates it, but I don’t obsess over it. Anymore...

[jerseyboy]

I don’t play enough high gain stuff on Helix anymore to notice or bothered by “fizz”.  Back in the POD XT era using Bose L1’s live it was major issue.  

 

Yes, fizz will be a component even with most any tube OD/Dist but in the early days the XT and subsequent amplification techniques at the time full range amplification knocked fizz “proportions” outta whack.  

 

Essentially full range amplified fizz can be much more prominent compared to the fundamental tone than it would be using more standard tube amps/cabinets.  

 

Compared to prehistoric XT, Helix will do a better job today with regard to fizz proportions.  Also, now that we understand it better not too much trouble to EQ/filter some of the most fatiguing components of fizz from our full range signal paths.  

 

It’s one of those things that may come up eventually but nothing to dwell or stress about.  It can be tamed….

[codamedia]

Those are inherent sounds with guitar amps...

 

When it happens on a tube amp people accept it as part of the tone... when it happens in a modeler it must be a flaw :) 

You will scrutinize the modeler to every minute detail... but you don't do that with an amp. 

 

Amp purists will insist it's a "digital fault" while dismissing the same sound coming from their glorious tube amps as something normal.

 

[BBD_123]

2 hours ago, codamedia said:

Amp purists will insist it's a "digital fault" while dismissing the same sound coming from their glorious tube amps as something normal.

 

As well as a lack of critical perspective, there's the 'chain of ineptitude': silly pickups, too much gain right from the git-go (guitar pad off instead of on), high-gain amps wide open and not enough high cut at the end of the chain... you reap what you sow :-)