Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Highroller54

Tone Coloring

Recommended Posts

Hello,

 

  I have had my HD500x for a few weeks now, and have found some real cool features and sounds to use.  But I do like the sound of my amp and would like to set up a couple patches that uses my amps tone and enhance it with the 500.  Here is my problem, I have tried many different configurations of connecting the 500 to my amp and like running it into the front of the amp best.  I set my amp clean on channel one with a little dirt on channel two, when I connect the 500 to my amp via the left mono output and my guitar into the guitar in and a blank patch my tone is totally lost and sounds like it has a blanket over it, and a big loss in volume. I have also tried using it in the effects loop of the amp and it adds to much hum.  I would have thought that when using a blank patch that there would be little or no coloring of tone but I was wrong, so am I doing something wrong or is this the nature of the beast.  I have tried a blank patch with an eq to bring my tone back but the more a tweak the eq the more noise it seems to add. I have tried all the eq's in the list, and I guess if I spent many hours tweaking the eq I could get close, but should I have to do this just to retreve the tone I loose by connecting the unit.

 

Any suggestions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You should get better result using the 4 cable method. Here's a video of how to:

http://line6.com/support/page/kb/_/effects/pod/pod-hd/video-tutorial-connecting-the-pod-hd500x500-r145

Thank you for the response, but I don't see how the 4 cable method can help with the issue I'm having.  Anytime you introduce the HD500x into the signal chain on a blank patch it degrades the tone of my amp drastically. That tells me I am not getting a pure path from my guitar to amp with the 500 in the chain, know matter how it's connected. This tells me that my 500x either has an issue or a blank patch has a lot of buffering and signal degrigation going on and requires tones of eqing to bring the tone back.  Im not looking for true bypass, I just don't see why the system would make such a drastic change in tone on a blank patch.  Like I said without the 500x in the signal chain the amp is very musical and round sounding, with the 500x in the chain it sounds like a speaker in a cardboard box with a wet blanket over it, terrible sounding, very boxey, and honky mids and just dead sounding, not musical at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the response, but I don't see how the 4 cable method can help with the issue I'm having. Anytime you introduce the HD500x into the signal chain on a blank patch it degrades the tone of my amp drastically. That tells me I am not getting a pure path from my guitar to amp with the 500 in the chain, know matter how it's connected. This tells me that my 500x either has an issue or a blank patch has a lot of buffering and signal degrigation going on and requires tones of eqing to bring the tone back. Im not looking for true bypass, I just don't see why the system would make such a drastic change in tone on a blank patch. Like I said without the 500x in the signal chain the amp is very musical and round sounding, with the 500x in the chain it sounds like a speaker in a cardboard box with a wet blanket over it, terrible sounding, very boxey, and honky mids and just dead sounding, not musical at all.

Output mode has a large impact on the EQ into the front input. Which mode are you using?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Output mode has a large impact on the EQ into the front input. Which mode are you using?

 

This is what I was thinking too.  Sounds like it might be set to Studio/Direct.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Output mode has a large impact on the EQ into the front input. Which mode are you using?

I have tried all modes, plus the switches on the 500 itself. I can get some really nice patches with the system, but when it comes to using my amps tone and dinamics it just isn't there at all.

 

I have tried all of guitar input signal chain, guitar and same, guitar and guitar, guitar + variax etc., and every cable mode known and they all suck tone drastically.

 

Changed the what is it the Z settings to get rid of the brightness, something to do with the imput impedance if I remember correctly.

 

Directly in to the effects return, sound too electronic/solidstate to me.

500 into the effects loop, guitar into the front of the amp, too much noise.

4 cable method, too much hum.

direct;y into the front of the amp, I like it, but can't use my amps natural tone at all.

 

I'm not trying to bash the 500x, I actually like it, but didn't notice until the last few days how much of an inpact it has on the natural tone of the amp, when trying to use the amp and enhance the tone with the 500x. I'm just wondering if my unit has issues.

 

Some things I have noticed that I haven't really figured out one way or another.

 

1. Sometimes after editing a patch through USB, the volume seems to jump up in volume for no reason, rarely, but it happens.

2. Expression pedal won't calibrate to zero on heel, I have to cheat the pedal forward a little bit to get the pedal to properly calibrate.

3. Controlls on 500x Drive, Volume, treble mids etc, sometimes have no effect on patch at all.

4. When trying to balance patches some are loud as H*ll and some are very low in volume even after balancing them, with computer through usb, Yes I save setting before moving on to the next patch.

5. After I originally upgraded the firmware, all patches sounded like a hollow body guitar made from metal, buzzz and sizzle, took reloading the firms ware 3 times and wasn't staightened out until I did multiple hard resets on the unit.

 

Question: when working in the edit software, when you select save bundle does this save all patches or just the setlist your working in?

 

I beginning to wonder if my unit has issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, the things you are describing are not common issues.  You seem to have already done everything I might have advised.  Can you take it back to the store you bought it from?  Test it at the store and compare it to another unit.  Sounds like you have a defective unit...

 

Saving a bundle should save all current set lists and patches at once.  I prefer to save individual patches and set lists.  Saving bundles didn't seem to work as well for me for some reason...

 

The excessive hum into the amp's FX loop could be a ground issue, there is a switch for that on the POD...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the response, but I don't see how the 4 cable method can help with the issue I'm having.

-When you to a bundle all patches are saved including all set lists

The reason I suggested this is because most players who use it with amp use the 4 cable method. 

There are other things that might help when you set your output mode which is probably the most significant setting to the overall sound:

 

 

this is from the  manual page 2-8:

 

"Combo Front& Stack Front: For connecting into the front input of a typical 
combo amp or amp head + external cab, respectively. When choosing either of
these Modes, you’ll see the following additional options for further tone shaping:
• Lows (Knob 2):Attenuates the low frequencies.
• Focus (Knob 3):Increases the overall midrange.
• Highs (Knob 4):Attenuates the high frequencies"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, the things you are describing are not common issues. You seem to have already done everything I might have advised. Can you take it back to the store you bought it from? Test it at the store and compare it to another unit. Sounds like you have a defective unit...

 

Saving a bundle should save all current set lists and patches at once. I prefer to save individual patches and set lists. Saving bundles didn't seem to work as well for me for some reason...

 

The excessive hum into the amp's FX loop could be a ground issue, there is a switch for that on the POD...

What he said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, the things you are describing are not common issues.  You seem to have already done everything I might have advised.  Can you take it back to the store you bought it from?  Test it at the store and compare it to another unit.  Sounds like you have a defective unit...

 

Saving a bundle should save all current set lists and patches at once.  I prefer to save individual patches and set lists.  Saving bundles didn't seem to work as well for me for some reason...

 

The excessive hum into the amp's FX loop could be a ground issue, there is a switch for that on the POD...

Thanks for your help concerning the bundle.  Yeah I had a ground loop issue, I had a real bad time with my amp, I had to buy a voltage regulator/line conditioner and that solved the amp issue, My house is over a hundred years old and although all the electrical has been upgraded it still has some issues. Yeah tried the ground lift switch on the 500 and it made it worse, it doesn't sound like a ground loop issue with the 500 sounds more like didgital hum coming from the unit, it's not 60 cycle hum. Well I still have a couple weeks left before I run out of return policy.  Gonna try a few more things, I'm going to use Monkey and try to revert all the way back to the original firmware and then start over, ROMs can get corrupted and sometimes you have to clear all the corrupted stuff in there to correct an issue. I really hate to send things back mailorder, you sometimes end up with worse than you had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

-When you to a bundle all patches are saved including all set lists

The reason I suggested this is because most players who use it with amp use the 4 cable method. 

There are other things that might help when you set your output mode which is probably the most significant setting to the overall sound:

 

 

this is from the  manual page 2-8:

 

"Combo Front& Stack Front: For connecting into the front input of a typical 
combo amp or amp head + external cab, respectively. When choosing either of
these Modes, you’ll see the following additional options for further tone shaping:
• Lows (Knob 2):Attenuates the low frequencies.
• Focus (Knob 3):Increases the overall midrange.
• Highs (Knob 4):Attenuates the high frequencies"

 

Thanks, I have changed these setting many times, but forgot about the eq part, possibly could use some tweeking, I'll give it a try.  If I remeber correctly the eq in this section is global which means I'll have to go back and adjust all 25 of my custom patches to compensate.  This is gonna su*k!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can just use the tone stack on your amp in put to achieve the same thing.  When set flat, most guitar amp tone stacks have a ~6dB bass/treble boost and midrange cut as compensation for the nature of Hi-Z electronics and the older open back guitar speaker cabs.  It's certainly less than an ideal solution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.....This is gonna su*k!

once you get the setup to where it should be, it will be very gratifying as these PODs are pretty good at giving you any sound imaginable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can just use the tone stack on your amp in put to achieve the same thing.  When set flat, most guitar amp tone stacks have a ~6dB bass/treble boost and midrange cut as compensation for the nature of Hi-Z electronics and the older open back guitar speaker cabs.  It's certainly less than an ideal solution.

Yeah I just sat back and thought about this, right now when I'm on a blank patch the amp sounds like crap (See above) and at least 30 or 40% loss in volume, but all the factory and my patches sound really good, of course some better than others, but most are usable and my patches are really close to what I was striving for.  So now if I use the amps tone stack, from where it sound great with no 500 conected and I tweek them and the 3 band eq in the utilities page to recover the loss of tone of the amp that means that everything including my custom patches are gonna sound like crap.  Surely I must have a malfunctioning unit to have to do all this to confensate for the loss of tone with the 500x connected. This can't be right or is it? I know a lot of BOSS Multiprocessors suck a lot of tone, I never experience this with line 6, been a line 6 user for years and always keep using there stuff because of it's tranparancy.  Does this mean the 500x has started a new trend or am I correct in thinking my unit has issues.  This is what I need to nail down, while I can still exchange it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As well as setting the internal output to Combo Front & Stack Front, you need to set the "1/4" Out" switch on the HD500 surface to "Amp" when plugging into Hi-Z guitar amp inputs.  I'm not sure how much you need to adjust the internal or amp tone stack set afterwards, but just use either set so it's not confusing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to all that have replied, all your comments and help is greatly appreciated.  I ask that one of you try this, so I can nail this down once and for all, and figure out if my unit has issues.  Anyone that has the 500x or I guess 500 connected to a guitar amp.

 

Try this and let me know what you find..

 

disconnect the 500 from the signal chain.

run guitar directly into your amp and pay attention to the sound.

Now add the 500 to the signal chain, 4 cable, straight in the front of the amp etc. I don't think it matters

Now go to a blank patch, how does it sound compared to no 500 in the path.

 

Please let me know what you find..

 

Is there a slight change in tone?

Is there no change at all?

is the tone change drastic?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to all that have replied, all your comments and help is greatly appreciated.  I ask that one of you try this, so I can nail this down once and for all, and figure out if my unit has issues.  Anyone that has the 500x or I guess 500 connected to a guitar amp.

 

Try this and let me know what you find..

 

disconnect the 500 from the signal chain.

run guitar directly into your amp and pay attention to the sound.

Now add the 500 to the signal chain, 4 cable, straight in the front of the amp etc. I don't think it matters

Now go to a blank patch, how does it sound compared to no 500 in the path.

 

Please let me know what you find..

 

Is there a slight change in tone?

Is there no change at all?

is the tone change drastic?

I have the hd500 running 4cm and had similar issue with my tube amps, I think the solution was to add a studio eq and boost the gain to restore what's lost.

 

I don't remember the details because I set it to where I like it and haven't changed it since. I believe I got that tip from meambobbos guide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am sorry,  My issue is exactly the same as the first post.  I am not sure how these forums go so astray.  The heart of the question is "is there a true bypass on these multi effects pedals"?  If you get a single effect pedal with "true bypass" say a distortion pedal, you do not want the pedal in the path doing anything to your tone.  you don't want to try the 4cm method (did it for over a year with my old head to great effect), tweak the EQ, do this, or try that.  Highroller54 and I just want to know how, if the HD500 has a "true bypass" mode or potential .  Right now I have a new amp head and the tone was driving me nuts.  I found out it was the POD not anything else. Same exact issues post #1 by highroller54 stated.  All I want to do is use the volume pedal and the tuner as well as the MIDI functions with no colorations, no dampening of my signal.  Can this beast work like a standard pedal with "True Bypass"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When tuner is engaged or you have a blank patch the volume is lower than direct to amp unless you bring the master volume up.

 

Presuming the switches are correct on the HD500 you can volume match using the mixer

when you have a blank patch and level match using it.

 

You can also try the different output menu options uninfluenced by an amp model.

 

These are two reasons why it is not tru bypass as it is going thru these not to mentio the master output.

 

You will need to create patches from scratch to work with this level match. 

 

One of my amps level matches at +9 the other gets very close at +12 the max you can go with the master output at 3/4th.

 

Another way to get a volume increase is to insert the FX loop with TRS to two TS cables and adjust the return volume.  This is why 4CM can work better than into front of amp.

 

Hope this helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The heart of the question is "is there a true bypass on these multi effects pedals"? All I want to do is use the volume pedal and the tuner as well as the MIDI functions with no colorations, no dampening of my signal.  Can this beast work like a standard pedal with "True Bypass"?

 

There is no true bypass such as you are describing.  A true bypass would allow the signal to flow straight from the input to the output without any DA conversion and that is not possible. The closest you will get is a blank patch but there will still be conversion to digital and back again which may impart some tonal changes.  You will just have to play with EQ and setup options to get a blank patch as close to true bypass as possible.  

 

I really don't understand why you are seeing this big of an issue.  I can run mine straight into the front of my tube amp and I have no tone suck to speak of and the levels are not way off either.  It sounds more like a setup issue than an overall POD problem...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't understand why you are seeing this big of an issue. I can run mine straight into the front of my tube amp and I have no tone suck to speak of and the levels are not way off either. It sounds more like a setup issue than an overall POD problem...

Agreed!

 

This sounds like a "Forrest and Tree" thing to me. We get laser focused on one tree and forget to look at the Forrest around us. I'm guilty of it at times. I spent hours with my original tube screamer playing one choppy chord in a triplet eight note pattern. I would then turn it off and repeat this pattern with the pod Screamer. Adnausium! My wife was going crazy with me! I was pulling my hair out because I couldn't get them to sound EXACTLY the same! Hours of my life that I can't get back because I was too busy staring at one tree. Only to realize that sounding different is not synonymous with sounding bad. It's just different. Now I have two screamers with different qualities and they both sound amazing!

 

It is time for you to get away from that tree, look at the Forrest around you. Set up a blank patch, put a studio eq in the chain, boost the gain, turn up the mixer, do what you gotta do and then move on! By focusing so much on this one issue, You may be missing out on future "Pod'scoveries" that will get you what you want.

 

Ask youself...is your goal a booty kicking tone from your rig, or is it to make the pod bypass so you can hear your amp. If the latter is your goal, there is one sure fire way to accomplish it, Put the pod back in the box and plug your guitar into the front of the amp. Bada-Bing! Discussion over!

 

To me, that would be a waste of a perfectly good and amazing pod.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed!

 

This sounds like a "Forrest and Tree" thing to me. We get laser focused on one tree and forget to look at the Forrest around us. I'm guilty of it at times. I spent hours with my original tube screamer playing one choppy chord in a triplet eight note pattern. I would then turn it off and repeat this pattern with the pod Screamer. Adnausium! My wife was going crazy with me! I was pulling my hair out because I couldn't get them to sound EXACTLY the same! Hours of my life that I can't get back because I was too busy staring at one tree. Only to realize that sounding different is not synonymous with sounding bad. It's just different. Now I have two screamers with different qualities and they both sound amazing!

 

It is time for you to get away from that tree, look at the Forrest around you. Set up a blank patch, put a studio eq in the chain, boost the gain, turn up the mixer, do what you gotta do and then move on! By focusing so much on this one issue, You may be missing out on future "Pod'scoveries" that will get you what you want.

 

Ask youself...is your goal a booty kicking tone from your rig, or is it to make the pod bypass so you can hear your amp. If the latter is your goal, there is one sure fire way to accomplish it, Put the pod back in the box and plug your guitar into the front of the amp. Bada-Bing! Discussion over!

 

To me, that would be a waste of a perfectly good and amazing pod.

 

 

Agreed. I have an original BK Butler Tube Driver.The Holy Grail of tube drive pedals.It is quite good and I dig it but the one in my M13 and my HD500 gets a lot more use and is also very good.If a player is worried about tone suck/true bypass/amp integrity/purist this and purist that don't use any of this modelling stuff. Get a good tube amp you are in love with/4  or 5 pedals and use the three or 4 great sounds you will have.For me I need  a lot of different sounds live as I play jazz standards/Metal/Hip Hop/Funk/Country/Blues/Alt Rock and everything else during the course of one gig.The POD gives me what I need to entertain an audience with a minimum of fuss.I dont record with these things though.That is a whole other deal.When I play live I let the audience decide if its good or not.If it is good I get paid well and get asked back over and over.If not I make changes.

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Highroller54;  To answer your basic question about the tone/volume drop off.  I made a clean patch with a vol pedal only.  I adjusted the mixer to +2.5 - center/center that took care of the volume drop off.  I went into the set up menu and adjusted the input for "Guitar" the guitar in Z to 136k once again for my rig this sounded closest to the guitar in the front.   Adjusted the out put to 600hz and flat on both Lows and Highs.  This got my sound to be the same both ways.  You may need to tweak (and I am sure you will) on your set up to get it "even sounding" and it was about 20 mins of time and quite easy.  Once again no disrespect to POD, but I really don't get what I wanted out of it.  I use it for the tuner, vol pedal and MIDI switching since I got my new head.  So if I boxed the POD up I would need $120 for a good floor tuner, $200 for the volume pedal and $3-500 for the MIDI switch board.  Now you know why I don't want to box it up or trade it into guitar center for $200. Thanks for you advise and its nothing personal its just a money thing. The condescension is really annoying when people are just looking for a solution on the "community support" forum.  Support being the operative word.  Thanks again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...