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zenguitardude

A different recording latency issue?

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So most of the threads I have found looking at latency when recording respond in a few basic ways:

  1. Always monitor through the Helix hardware for zero monitoring latency when playing/recording .
  2. The DAW requires setup and can cause latency.


The topic I cannot find is:

after addressing monitor based latency, in other words hearing latency as you play/record, no one discusses how to fix the actual recorded latent track.

You can hear whatever degree of latency is occurring simply by having a track in input, not muted and listening to the heterodyne differential. I experience the disparity varying depending on the complexity of the session. (Am running Protools) So I monitor through the helix when I track a part by muting the output of the enabled track. The problem is that, after recording, the latency is an aspect of the track because it was delayed getting recorded. I know this because I have done exhaustive testing. I even went to the extent of mic'ing a metronome in sync to the internal metronome and can see there is a delay between the clicks. 

When recording melodies or rhythm parts that delay effects the rhythmic "feel" of my recorded parts and I find I consistently have to offset the part by moving it upstream to counter the delay caused in recording. I have gotten to the point where I will do a first pass where I am playing quarter notes or eighth notes just to see what I need to do in order to offset the track, post recording.

Has anyone found a work around or solution for this? NOT monitor latency but actual track delay. If this particular/exact issue has been addressed/solved in another thread please link here. Thanks

Thanks

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Can you adjust in ProTools a temporary negative delay offset for recording? That's how I solve it here in my DAW Logic.

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Unfortunately it is not a consistent delay amount. It varies between 16ms-35ms, which is significant, as 16ms is almost 1/60th of  a second. Protools has delay comensation and low latency monitoring but not a way to measure and offset, that i know of.

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This isn't really a Helix issue. Someone here MIGHT have an answer, but wouldn't you be more likely to get a proper answer to this by posting in the ProTools Forum? Heck, post in several DAW forums. Can't hurt.

 

And when you do get the answer, come back and tell us.....:-)

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23 hours ago, zenguitardude said:

The topic I cannot find is:
after addressing monitor based latency, in other words hearing latency as you play/record, no one discusses how to fix the actual recorded latent track.

I make IR responses sessions right now using Pro Tools using analog loopback. I can assure you PT usually gives a sample precision auto compensation during recording.
My interface has 606 samples RTL at 48kHz 128 sample buffer and one sample signal recorded with an analog loopback sits exactly where it should.
There are some exceptions - sometimes a driver doing something strange and there is full RTL delay recorded until a reset. The second issue is bussing the track to another track/aux which deliver additional latency. It is discussed for years as a bug because that latency is not corrected with PT latency compensation.
If you can describe at what circumstances your recorded tracks are latent maybe I can replicate what you report, or maybe you can do some simple analog loopback tests to make sure you are not wrong.

 

22 hours ago, zenguitardude said:

not a way to measure and offset, that i know of.

Setting I/O insert shows full RTL value in latency monitoring indicator under the channel strip, but you are not talking about RTL offset but some offset you claim to be present in recorded track.

 

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2 hours ago, zolko60 said:

I make IR responses sessions right now using Pro Tools using analog loopback. I can assure you PT usually gives a sample precision auto compensation during recording.
My interface has 606 samples RTL at 48kHz 128 sample buffer and one sample signal recorded with an analog loopback sits exactly where it should.
There are some exceptions - sometimes a driver doing something strange and there is full RTL delay recorded until a reset. The second issue is bussing the track to another track/aux which deliver additional latency. It is discussed for years as a bug because that latency is not corrected with PT latency compensation.
If you can describe at what circumstances your recorded tracks are latent maybe I can replicate what you report, or maybe you can do some simple analog loopback tests to make sure you are not wrong.

 

Setting I/O insert shows full RTL value in latency monitoring indicator under the channel strip, but you are not talking about RTL offset but some offset you claim to be present in recorded track.

 

So, if I am recording and I leave the track armed and unmuted, I can hear a difference between the direct signal and the channel signal. It can vary from a Phase sound to an actual slapback, depending on the latency/delay. This delay is the amount of time it takes to get from my guitar through the A/D converter and through the input/output section of Protools. I have delay compensation and low latency monitoring turned on. I record by muting the return of the armed track and listening through the Helix as I play. A quick test is simply to put up a click and play quarter notes against the click and if I monitor through the Helix and I am reasonably accurate, in general I hear myself play quarter notes against a click. On playback that performance is delayed. It is obvious sonically and visually. The delay amount seems to vary. This is the nature of latency. I hear and feel a delay between when my hands execute the performance and the PT rig is recording it. If I offset the playback to match the tempo it always works but is time consuming to do each track. I will try and make a screen capture movie to show this.

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On 5/25/2019 at 10:33 AM, rd2rk said:

This isn't really a Helix issue. Someone here MIGHT have an answer, but wouldn't you be more likely to get a proper answer to this by posting in the ProTools Forum? Heck, post in several DAW forums. Can't hurt.

 

And when you do get the answer, come back and tell us.....:-)

I think it is a Helix issue because the recommendation on how to record is to monitor THROUGH the Helix as you record, because that monitor path for audio is PRE USB send to the DAW,  so that you don't experience the latency as you play. Meaning they know there is an issue. At the same time the reality, for me, seems to be delayed performances that need to be offset to achieve the original performance rhythmic accuracy. Seems to me to be entirely a Helix issue, otherwise they would not have to make that recommendation?

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1 hour ago, zenguitardude said:

So, if I am recording and I leave the track armed and unmuted, I can hear a difference between the direct signal and the channel signal. It can vary from a Phase sound to an actual slapback, depending on the latency/delay.

In case of "low latency monitoring" and "direct monitoring" no DAW monitoring should be heard

 

1 hour ago, zenguitardude said:

I have delay compensation and low latency monitoring turned on.

Delay compensation state is irrelevant for direct monitoring.

 

1 hour ago, zenguitardude said:

On playback that performance is delayed. It is obvious sonically and visually.

It should not be. Simple test is to record something recorded via DA/DA and compare if there is any offset.

 

1 hour ago, zenguitardude said:

The delay amount seems to vary. This is the nature of latency.

No. It should be constant for a buffer setting for the same interface.

 

1 hour ago, zenguitardude said:

I hear and feel a delay between when my hands execute the performance and the PT rig is recording it.

I also hear and feel delay with DAW monitoring at 20ms RTL of Helix as an interface. I do not hear latency with 2ms low latency (Hx direct) monitoring. PT is not recording any latency in both cases. It auto compesates unless there is something wrong.

 

1 hour ago, zenguitardude said:

I think it is a Helix issue because the recommendation on how to record is to monitor THROUGH the Helix as you record, because that monitor path for audio is PRE USB send to the DAW,  so that you don't experience the latency as you play.

This is the issue of all audio interfaces. There are two ways of monitoring. In case of Helix RTL is quite high so direct monitoring is a must.

I use three interfaces with PT.  Until i adopted SPDIF recording I used to record guitars with Helix at 256 samples buffer. It is 1651 samples 34ms RTL. With no auto compensation those tracks would be completly off beat. With my other interfaces I could work with the same heavy loaded sessions with 128 samples buffer what gives me about 12ms RTL. I can play with 12ms daw monitoring latency. It is like having guitar cab 4 meters away.

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