A Tiny Little Ground-breaking Feature ...

[wolbai]

... I have overseen which came along with the new POD HD firmware 2.20 in November:

 

 

POD HD 500 Master volume control in relation with L6 link.

 

 

And today I had some time to check it out at the rehearsal room with my DT50 Head and the POD HD 500.

 

Although there is already a Thread in the POD HD forum I thought it is worth to place my feedback here, because a lot of non-DT25/50 consider this new firmware as worthless.

 

But this is a totally different story for the DT25/50 user which are using this equipment for live performance / professional usage IMO.

 

And I think this tiny little feature is ground-breaking!

 

One of my biggest challenges on the DT50 in the past was to manage the bloody high volume amount which comes along when turning the DT25/50 master volume in the area of 50% and above.

 

Unfortunately this was the only option in the past to push the power section for tube saturation of some amps like the Marshall Super Lead Plexi, Park-75, which I am using quite frequently. Pretty the same way as the original amps expecting to make them shine.

 

I therefore have started 1 1/2 years ago using (several) power attenuators to run my DT25/50 in master volume level on approx. 70% to benefit from power section tube distortion.

 

But approx. 6 months ago I stopped using a power attenuator, because all of them I have used (also a RIVERA Rock Crusher) where not able to deal with effects like delays, reverbs and some mod effects in a proper way IMO.

 

So I completely changed my presets by lowering the DT25/50 master volume to approx. 25% without using a power attenuator anymore. I have compensated the loss in distortion / tube saturation of the power section by intensive usage of dist pedals and tube compressor. All in all this was somehow a bit of a compromise in tone.

 

As of today I am aware the master volume control in the POD HD 500 is a mighty feature. And it is not only just another way to control volume. It is THE way IMO:

 

I have raised the DT25/50 master volume back to old position (when used with a power attenuator) to approx. 70%. And I have reduced the overall volume with the master volume on the POD HD by reducing from max to approx. 45%.

 

The outcomes:

 

- pretty much more headroom for clean tones; my existing clean tones had some kind of distortion level due to the low Dt25/50 master volume setting (not really surprising).
 

- the tones on distorted sounds with amps like, Marshall Plexi Lead, JCM800, Soldano are (again) stellar.
 

- The overall tone seems not to suffer by lowering the POD HD output as the input level for the DT25/50 IMO.
 

- No need for LVM mode or a power attenuators IMO any more to manage high volume.

 

 

As a consequence of the new POD HD firmware 2.20 I need to rework my presets by reducing the usage of distortion pedals, tube compressor pretty much in the same way I had my presets when using a power attenuator. A lot of distortion I need can be done now again just with the amp-Equing.

 

The weird thing to me is that this mighty feature is available somewhere pretty late in the life cycle of the Dt25/50 amps (DT50s are no longer available in bigger Online stores like THOMANN).

 

Anyhow: one of the BEST features which came along with a POD HD firmware releases in the last 2 years IMO for L6 link device users and a very welcome year end gift from Line6 !!!

[Brazzy]

I was in the market for an attenuator but changed my mind when this update was released. I have way more control since the "HD 500 Master Volume L6 Link Control" addition. So I'm right there with Ya! Nice Post BTW.

[radatats]

Aboslutely agree... DT master UP, POD master to control volume, channel volume to level patches.  Increased headroom and power amp sweetness...  Made all the difference for me.

[Metalchef]

Ditto

[Metalchef]

If I might add since the volume fix the Divided by 13 model is one of my favorites now.

[boyce89976]

Agreed!  I set my master on the DT up around 75-90%.  Used the PHD Motorway to build a couple of patches for the first time today, using a pretty healthy volume (about what it would be set at in the amp closet at church), and the sustain/creamy overdrive was simply marvelous.  It was so creamy, lead lines sounded clean, and just rang out forever.  

[innovine]

According to this thread: http://line6.com/support/topic/4231-channel-volume-vs-master-volume/?do=findComment&comment=28015

Its not possible to get power amp distortion by lowering the input and cranking the dt master, which seems to me to be exactly whats claimed in this thread. Someone please ennlighten me.

[radatats]

Before the upgrade we couldn't turn the DT master up at all because the POD master was fixed full up.  Now we can turn the DT master up and turn the POD master down to compensate.  As my post in the thread you reference fully explains, that allows the power section to breath with more current to the tubes and while you don't really get the full flavor of power amp distortion kicking in until both masters are up pretty high you certainly get a different tone and feel from when the POD was full up and the DT low.  It just gets better as you turn it up!

[Brazzy]

Before the upgrade we couldn't turn the DT master up at all because the POD master was fixed full up.  Now we can turn the DT master up and turn the POD master down to compensate.  As my post in the thread you reference fully explains, that allows the power section to breath with more current to the tubes and while you don't really get the full flavor of power amp distortion kicking in until both masters are up pretty high you certainly get a different tone and feel from when the POD was full up and the DT low.  It just gets better as you turn it up!

I do beleive that about says it. Thumbs Up!

[wolbai]

According to this thread: http://line6.com/support/topic/4231-channel-volume-vs-master-volume/?do=findComment&comment=28015

Its not possible to get power amp distortion by lowering the input and cranking the dt master, which seems to me to be exactly whats claimed in this thread. Someone please ennlighten me.

 

As an additional comment to radatats explanations: I suggest that you test it on your own, if the equipment is available to you. Ears are at the end of the day always the best proof IMO.

[innovine]

I disagree. Ears are easily fooled, but a thorough understanding is more reliable.

 

I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just that I don't understand. I gan't crank my amp due to small children and grumpy neighbours.

[innovine]

Before the upgrade we couldn't turn the DT master up at all because the POD master was fixed full up. Now we can turn the DT master up and turn the POD master down to compensate.

The channel volume does the same thing as the pod master when connected via the line6 link.. nothing new there..

 

the only thing raising the dt master would do is raise the noise floor, it seems to me, and no explanation suggests otherwise..

[radatats]

http://line6.com/support/topic/4231-channel-volume-vs-master-volume/?p=27929

 

Whatever...

[wolbai]

I disagree. Ears are easily fooled, but a thorough understanding is more reliable.

 

I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just that I don't understand. I gan't crank my amp due to small children and grumpy neighbours.

 

The beauty of forums is that we always can agree that we disagree :D

[grandinq]

Awesome feature!  I only wish I hadn't bought that Weber attenuator this past summer!

[innovine]

http://line6.com/support/topic/4231-channel-volume-vs-master-volume/?p=27929

 

Whatever...

Can you expand on the difference here:

 

Channel Volume - controls amp block signal output within the preamp.

 

POD Master - controls preamp signal output to the power amp.

 

According to this thread, the difference clearly means better tone, and no need for attenuators, so I must have missed something drastic.

[boyce89976]

Can you expand on the difference here:

 

Channel Volume - controls amp block signal output within the preamp.

 

POD Master - controls preamp signal output to the power amp.

 

According to this thread, the difference clearly means better tone, and no need for attenuators, so I must have missed something drastic.

 

This is how I understand it:

 

Channel volume is in the amp block and affects the amp block volume PRE-mixer.  

 

POD Master volume is at the very end of the signal chain in the POD and affects the POD output POST-mixer.  

[radatats]

Sure, if I can...

 

Consider your signal as it passes through the POD from your guitar.  It comes in at a certain level and is modified at every FX or amp block it encounters.  Lets just consider the amp blocks for now.  Each amp model has different characteristics and just as in the real world, some models put out a hotter signal than others.  The Channel Volume is how we adjust the signal level as it leaves the amp block, before it hits other FX, the mixer, and what ever we have in the Post section.  While we can certainly use it to crank every amp block to its max, it is most useful as a tool to level the volume between the various amp models that we use.  Max out your quietest amp model and the lower the Channel Volume for other amps to match.

 

Once we do this we now have a somewhat consistent signal level leaving the mixer and being passed to the Post section for further processing.  The POD Master comes at the very end of the Post section and our signal chain.  This knob adjusts the final signal level being sent to the power section, either the tube power section of our DT or the power amp driving whatever speaker cab we are using.  In this case we are talking about the DT power section.  The POD master works in conjunction with the DT master to give us our final volume level.  It is the interaction between these two that determine whether we get true power section distortion or not.

 

The POD signal contains the audio data we wish to reproduce and the DT has the horsepower to drive the speakers.  The audio signal will merge with and ride on the power amp current.  We can either send a large audio signal to ride a small current (POD up, DT down), a small audio signal to ride a large DT current (POD down, DT up) or a large audio signal to ride a large current (POD up, DT up).  Sort of like a car with different engines.  With a small engine (DT down) we can jam on the gas pedal (POD up) and we may go fast but the engine is working hard and not too responsive.  With a big engine (DT up) and a light touch on the gas (POD down) we can still go fast and be more responsive without working too hard.  With a big engine (DT up) and jam on the gas (POD up) we can smoke the tires and roar down the track and the engine gets to do its thing.

 

Prior to the update the POD was up all the time as the Master knob had no effect.  All we could adjust was the DT master and for most of us it was way too loud to use on a regular basis or at home.  The update allows us to choose what kind of "engine" we want to use and how hard we want to step on the gas before our ears or our significant others complain.  For me personally, I prefer a big effing engine and I can work the gas myself.  It just opens up so many more options even though full out power amp distortion may only come with a Led foot...

 

I hope this helps...

[innovine]

I appreciate the long reply, thanks. I'm with you 100% of the way until the final paragraph.

 

We have always had the channel volume. With nothing after the amp block and before leaving the pod, there is no difference between the channel volume and the master volume, so the ability to throttle back the pod has always been there, just the post effects which are hit harder or not now.

 

The analogy with the car is kinda getting there, but if we imagine a dog with his head out the window (the listener) and his tongue flapping in the wind (the power amp dist), is it correct to say that the amount of tongue flap is the same whether its a big engine working a little, travelling at 10mph, or a tiny engine working itself to death to also give 10mph?

Tongue flappage isn't magically added because the car -could- go faster, which is sort of what I'm hearing in this thread..

Ano, as I mentioned in the other thread, constant current is only in some classes, which hasn't been discussed..

 

I get the feeling I'll be getting my sine wave generator out soon.

[boyce89976]

We have always had the channel volume. With nothing after the amp block and before leaving the pod, there is no difference between the channel volume and the master volume, so the ability to throttle back the pod has always been there, just the post effects which are hit harder or not now.

 

 

 

I think you just answered your own question... Channel volume is in the amp block, before the mixer and post-amp effects.  POD Master volume is post everything, including post-amp effects.  That's a big difference in functionality!  It might help to think of Channel volume as part of the pre-amp gain control and the Master volume as just that.      

[radatats]

I see what you are saying but I never felt it really worked that way.  I may be wrong but I look at it like 3 separate levels of gain staging.  If I am forced to keep the POD master full up, the only way I can lower the signal to the power section to allow me to turn up the horsepower is to lower the audio level being carried on the signal to the power section.  Doesn't seem the same.  Plus I either have to adjust every patch individually to change volume or turn down the DT master, exactly what I don't want to do.

 

And the bigger engine is what gives us head room and the ability to respond to transients and pick attack.  Both engines may get us to 10 mph but the big engine can easily spurt up to 50 mph...

 

That's it from me... If anyone else can explain it better or differently please have at it...

[innovine]

Just tried with the pod master down and the dt at max, then with the dt down and the pod at max. I've turned it down pretty far so as to not wake the kids, buti can't hear any difference at all. Bf double nrm, pretty clean. Maybe the difference only shows up after a certain volume? I was told the power amp dist wouldn't be heard at home listening levels tho. What am I missing?

[innovine]

Alsoe I see how the pod master is useful as a gain control, but NOT how it contributes to better tone, or to replace an attenuator.

 

(you could by the way reduce the signal by putting some level control in the amps loop, but I totall see your point and fudlyeagree that its useful)

[boyce89976]

Just tried with the pod master down and the dt at max, then with the dt down and the pod at max. I've turned it down pretty far so as to not wake the kids, buti can't hear any difference at all. Bf double nrm, pretty clean. Maybe the difference only shows up after a certain volume? I was told the power amp dist wouldn't be heard at home listening levels tho. What am I missing?

 

I don't think you'd be able to hear a difference with this test... volume is too low.  The idea radatats was trying to convey is that there is greater headroom available if the DT Master is all the way up using the POD Master to control output volume... to hear the difference, you'd have to play at such a volume for the "High POD Master/Low DT Master" scenario to clip.  

 

Another way to think about it is in live sound you run your power amps at full gain, to get the most headroom and control the output volume with the mixing console master faders.  

[wolbai]

Just tried with the pod master down and the dt at max, then with the dt down and the pod at max. I've turned it down pretty far so as to not wake the kids, buti can't hear any difference at all. Bf double nrm, pretty clean. Maybe the difference only shows up after a certain volume? I was told the power amp dist wouldn't be heard at home listening levels tho. What am I missing?

 

A clean amp like a BF Double will not show that much difference in tone when turning up the power section on your DT (the only exception his, if you hit the string very hard you will not hear distortion). This is pretty much the same as the the original amp (I think Fender Twin Reverb) behaves. This amps stays clean at the highest volume levels. That is why many people love this amp for its outstanding cleaness.

 

The difference can be heard with amps which needs a hard hit on the power section to get saturated. These amps are for example Marshall Plexi, or the PARK-75. Try them. Set your Pod Master volume at around 50% and your DT master volume to 1 or 2 o clock (that is a volume level a play at rehearsal room with my band). Do the same with these amps with Master volume on your DT at 25% and the POD HD master volume at 100%. Don't use any distortion, OD effects or compressors in the signal chain. You should hear a significant distortion  level with DT Master volume turned up compared to the second test.

[ahrens]

Dang, this is a great update/feature! Of course the XTLive had it years ago.  God do I wish I had some of those badass amp models from the XTLive in the HD500(Metal Pack, ect…)

 

Happy New Year!

(note to self…more time playing/songwriting/recording…less time tweaking…)

[Metalchef]

Good job wolbai.... That's why I like the forum.... Just when u can't figure out how to 'splain something someone comes in and gives a great example.

[MartinDorr]

Have similar experience as 'innovine' although I think there is a bit more going on.

Despite that general position, I think the Master Volume is a great new feature addition as it replaces all my trailing volume pedals that allow me to adjust easily to venue volume needs.

Will scratch my plan to get an external pedal for dynamic volume or Wah (save $50 or more) and one gets essentially another effect slot if you used the Volume pedal like I did.

 

That said I think there is a bit of a tone change when trading off Channel Volume with Master Volume. I did not expect that as I also thought Channel Volume does the same as Master Volume except on a different point in the signal chain after the amp.

My current best guess is that Channel Volume does not act on the output of the preamp amp model but on the input to the preamp, i.e., it acts like a clean boost, and thus Channel Volume and Master Volume do not have the same effect even if there are no post amp effects (which would throw another wrench into the picture).

 

Time for more experimentation. By the way, I also suspect that the preamp Drive setting is made available to the DT power amps and it impacts output volume on the DT. You can try this out by using USB to perfectly balance the preamp output signal for a number of same high gain amp type/tube/mode settings and then check volume when played through the DT. You will find some significant volume differences although the visible DT settings will not change at all and the input signal coming out of the different preamps is pretty much the same (use high resolution RMS and not peak metering to blance volume).

 

Martin

[saTa]

I'm not sure this has to do with the update or if something's broken... but all my presets sound completely different (much cleaner and quieter) than before. I have to turn the Master on my DT25 up all the way and still can't hear myself in the rehearsal room whereas it used to be fine at around 35-40% up. Am I wrong in assuming that it all should sound exactly the same with the master on the HD500 all the way up? Well, it doesn't... :(

[boyce89976]

I'm not sure this has to do with the update or if something's broken... but all my presets sound completely different (much cleaner and quieter) than before. I have to turn the Master on my DT25 up all the way and still can't hear myself in the rehearsal room whereas it used to be fine at around 35-40% up. Am I wrong in assuming that it all should sound exactly the same with the master on the HD500 all the way up? Well, it doesn't... :(

 

Sounds like you might have an amp issue, or your POD settings have changed for some reason.  

[grandinq]

I'm not sure this has to do with the update or if something's broken... but all my presets sound completely different (much cleaner and quieter) than before. I have to turn the Master on my DT25 up all the way and still can't hear myself in the rehearsal room whereas it used to be fine at around 35-40% up. Am I wrong in assuming that it all should sound exactly the same with the master on the HD500 all the way up? Well, it doesn't... :(

 

This is what was happening to me.  Replacing the tubes brought everything back in its loud, tonal glory.

[innovine]

The difference can be heard with amps which needs a hard hit on the power section to get saturated. These amps are for example Marshall Plexi, or the PARK-75. Try them. Set your Pod Master volume at around 50% and your DT master volume to 1 or 2 o clock (that is a volume level a play at rehearsal room with my band). Do the same with these amps with Master volume on your DT at 25% and the POD HD master volume at 100%. Don't use any distortion, OD effects or compressors in the signal chain. You should hear a significant distortion  level with DT Master volume turned up compared to the second test.

 

Actually I don't hear any difference. The dt25 is MUCH quieter in the second test you describe, and I need to raise the master on the pod to 11 o lock to get a similar volume level. Maybe there's a mistake in what you described? I was expecting roughly level volumes but these are waay off.

 

I'm using the plex 100 lead nrm pre.

 

You didn't mention the setting for channel volume... so i put it at 100%.

Test 1. With the dt25 master at 9-10 o clock, and pod master at 11 o clock. I can't really play much louder than this...

 

Test 2. The dt25 master at 100% and the pod master at 9 o clock. This gives me the same volume level, and it sounds the same to my ears. Just in case, I miced it up (i didnt try the direct out yet) and listened to the recordings, and I can't tell the difference there either.

 

 

From this I can conclude that either you made a mistake in your numbers above, or that at a bedroom volume level there is no difference whether you crank the dt25 master or lower the master and provide a stronger signal to the power section by cranking the pod master instead. As mentioned, there may be differences if you have reverb or something earlier in the chain, but I Don't hear any difference on the output of the power amp. Perhaps the amp needs to be much louder again?

[wolbai]

Actually I don't hear any difference. The dt25 is MUCH quieter in the second test you describe, and I need to raise the master on the pod to 11 o lock to get a similar volume level. Maybe there's a mistake in what you described? I was expecting roughly level volumes but these are waay off.

 

I'm using the plex 100 lead nrm pre.

 

You didn't mention the setting for channel volume... so i put it at 100%.

Test 1. With the dt25 master at 9-10 o clock, and pod master at 11 o clock. I can't really play much louder than this...

 

Test 2. The dt25 master at 100% and the pod master at 9 o clock. This gives me the same volume level, and it sounds the same to my ears. Just in case, I miced it up (i didnt try the direct out yet) and listened to the recordings, and I can't tell the difference there either.

 

 

From this I can conclude that either you made a mistake in your numbers above, or that at a bedroom volume level there is no difference whether you crank the dt25 master or lower the master and provide a stronger signal to the power section by cranking the pod master instead. As mentioned, there may be differences if you have reverb or something earlier in the chain, but I Don't hear any difference on the output of the power amp. Perhaps the amp needs to be much louder again?

 

It is pretty hard to resolve different results at that point. And I doubt whether this is really necessary...  May be the fact that my amp is a DT50 and not a DT25 is a root cause for different tonal results.

 

In any case: I am talking about a gig volume level and not a bedroom volume level. I hardly can imagine to hear that much differences at bedroom levels. I personally do not care that much on the sound at bedroom or headphone levels. I use to practice with my POD HD500 at home and a decent headphone. That is pretty fine for me. And I use mainly the same presets (with pre amp models) as for live gigs. 

 

I have used this new setup on several gigs and for a 3 days studio recording session so far and I am very pleased with a 50%-60% POD Master volume and a 50%-70% DT50 Master volume level. This configuration brings more power section saturation to MY tone than before (old configuration: POD Master volume at 100% and DT50 Master volume at approx. 25%) with SPECIFIC amps as mentioned (not the clean ones).

 

And I can pretty much more easily adapt the overall volume level to the specific environment I am playing without much negative impact on my tone with the POD Master volume as before. There is good range between 40-60% on the POD Master volume to MY ears where I can adapt noticably the overall volume level without loosing too much power section contribution to the tone. And I also agree that the more to you increase the POD Master volume to 100% the better these power section results (on specific amps) are noticeable. But the tradeoff is that the volume level is just too high for most locations to play. 

 

Regarding the Marshall Plexi Lead I am using the Bright pre amp model with amp volume at 100% for Rhythm and lead tones.

On amps like the Soldano and the JCM800 which I use frequently, I also have discovered good results in tone by increase the DT-Master volume and reducing the POD-Master volume (again: at the same HIGH volume level as before). I therefore have kicked out some distortion pedals in several presets or I have reduced noticably effect paramaters like compressors and let therefore the power section contribute to a distorted tone.

 

I do not think that we are talking here on the level of mistakes. Simply speaking if it sounds good to me - it is good and I am not wrong. And it is fair enough to say that this does not necessarily apply to everyone.

[Slidedude]

Has anyone from Line 6 actually chimed in on this new feature? I understand this is probably not the forum for that, but I'm curious.

[saTa]

This is what was happening to me.  Replacing the tubes brought everything back in its loud, tonal glory.

Cheers... but it was a strange software issue. Re-installing the firmware and resetting the amp did not work. However, when I used one of the DT editors posted somewhere here on these forums to have a look at the parameters, I found the master knob to be WAY off. When it was turned up all the way on the actual amp, it was at 30-40% in the software. So I cranked it in the software and then moved it on the amp. Now they're back in sync and the amp behaves as expected. Very annoying and many thanks to the guys putting out these DT editors!

[chrishlp]

Guys, are you talking about the HD master volume or the amp model master volume?

 

I've recently have been using the amp master volume on full amp sims and low volume to get greater headroom and dynamics out of the DT tube power stage.

[cr8z4life2]

If you guys are still monitoring this thread maybe you can help........I am using the DT 25 with the 500X  and have spent a lot of time on custom tones for live use.  When I turn up on the DT25 to say noon......some of my settings are too hot.  I am getting feedback but not the enjoyable type!!   So would it be correct to set the PODS master volume all the way up and turn down the DT25 master to combat that somewhat?    

[MartinDorr]

I get maximum 'tube effect' from my DT25 when the DT Master Volume is set at 3pm (not max) and thus I leave that setting constant for any venue or tone.

I use HD Master Volume to adjust volume to venue.

I use Channel Volume on HD to set peak amp model signal level (measured via USB) at about -12dBFS to stay away from model soft clipping/compression/distortio

 

From measurements I concluded that Channel volume changes that results in output levels below the -12dBFS peak are tone neutral. Changes that cause output to be higher will impact tone, which you may use to your advantage if you are looking for a bit of compression or distortion. It will get nasty though (for my taste) if you get in the -3dBFS range.

 

Martin

[scotty_burford]

Hi Martin

How do you do these measurements?

All the best 

[MartinDorr]

I use USB to a MAC running an Izotope high resolution meters (I beleieve there is also some free SW you can get to just measure peak and RMS levels). I also use a Faber SignalScopePro App on an iPhone and iPad and a small USB AD interface from Behringer (UAD-something). You don't need the latter for speaker measurements. You also don't need to calibrate your mic/SPL levels if you are just after relative differences.

Let me know if you want to repeat the measurements that show that channel volume has no tone impact as long as peak level stays at or below -12dBFS range. It takes some prepping using a simple HD tone setup, recording a small loop, and taking a series of measurements a couple of times.