Volume Loss Tone Suck When Engaging Delay Effect

[jbussiere]

Hello all, a bit of background. I'm running an HX Effects after a Kemper Profiling amp. I've noted a considerable volume drop when engaging a simple delay or vintage delay of any sort, it also sort of tone sucks (losing sparkle/chime of overall tone, maybe a bit muffled). I also noticed that when I engage a legacy modulated delay...no tone suck at all. I love the Vintage delay but for some reason I'm having this issue. 

 

Any thoughts? If you need more info, just let me know...

[rd2rk]

Although I'd never noticed it, I tried a couple of different delays after a couple of different clean amps (in my Helix Floor). I didn't notice a volume drop, but, just like in the "real" world, different delays do color the tone in their own ways. Could be this is what you're perceiving as "tone suck"? Attenuated highs can also cause a perception of volume drop. Some of the delays have tone controls, you might try adding back some highs. An eq before or after the delay might also work.

 

Also, is there an impedance setting on the HXFX? Somewhere there's a chart of the impedance that the various effects expect to see, since they're mostly modeled on stomp boxes, that might be a factor.  

 

Ah! There it is. Attached!

 

All I can think of right now.

Helix Effect Impedance Chart.xlsx

[zolko60]

The impedance thing can be a suspect, but after a Kemper or any buffered stomp - not likely. The only effect dry path simulation I know about in Helix is the Cosmos Echo with a Dry Thru parameter set to off, but since all Hx delays are heavily low passed the impression could be they affect the tone.

[phil_m]

The way the Mix parameter is scaled for the delays on the HX line is different than most pedals on the market. It’s actually a balance control. At 0 you have 100% dry/0% wet. At 100, you have 0% dry/100% wet. At 50, you have 100% dry/100% wet. So that means if you move the mix past 50, the level of your dry signal starts decreasing. As long as you have it at 50 or lower, your dry signal will remain unaffected.

 

Also, the HX Effects doesn’t have the variable input impedance circuitry.

[jbussiere]

 

7 hours ago, phil_m said:

The way the Mix parameter is scaled for the delays on the HX line is different than most pedals on the market. It’s actually a balance control. At 0 you have 100% dry/0% wet. At 100, you have 0% dry/100% wet. At 50, you have 100% dry/100% wet. So that means if you move the mix past 50, the level of your dry signal starts decreasing. As long as you have it at 50 or lower, your dry signal will remain unaffected.

 

Also, the HX Effects doesn’t have the variable input impedance circuitry.

Ok this is super interesting. So effectively anything past 50% will begin to decrease my dry signal. So there is no way to get the volume level of repeats desired without loss of dry signal, if (obviously) I'm desiring something above 50%. In practice time this is fine, but live I need my repeats fairly high for them to come through the mix with the style of music I play live.

 

This is no way being snarky, but me trying to understand. What would the reasoning be for this? I'm just trying to understand the use case honestly. Thanks for this insight, this is totally new information.

 

One thought is, I haven't played with the "level" parameter much. Traditionally...the "mix" level is what gave you volume of your repeats. Does the "level" control knob within the delay options do something similar? Or does it boost overall volume? Essentially...could I keep the "mix" right at 50% but boost the "level" knob to get me where I need?

[rd2rk]

58 minutes ago, jbussiere said:

Does the "level" control knob within the delay options do something similar? Or does it boost overall volume? Essentially...could I keep the "mix" right at 50% but boost the "level" knob to get me where I need?

 

LEVEL would boost the total output of the effect, wet and dry. Use Snapshots to control the wet/dry/level settings to get what you're after.

[PDKTDK]

I must be missing something here.  In what actual or modeled delay does the mix control the amount of repeats?

[rd2rk]

9 minutes ago, PDKTDK said:

I must be missing something here.  In what actual or modeled delay does the mix control the amount of repeats?

 

OP was asking about the LEVEL of the repeats, not the amount (# of) repeats.

[phil_m]

On 6/4/2019 at 2:09 PM, jbussiere said:

 

Ok this is super interesting. So effectively anything past 50% will begin to decrease my dry signal. So there is no way to get the volume level of repeats desired without loss of dry signal, if (obviously) I'm desiring something above 50%. In practice time this is fine, but live I need my repeats fairly high for them to come through the mix with the style of music I play live.

 

This is no way being snarky, but me trying to understand. What would the reasoning be for this? I'm just trying to understand the use case honestly. Thanks for this insight, this is totally new information.

 

One thought is, I haven't played with the "level" parameter much. Traditionally...the "mix" level is what gave you volume of your repeats. Does the "level" control knob within the delay options do something similar? Or does it boost overall volume? Essentially...could I keep the "mix" right at 50% but boost the "level" knob to get me where I need?

 

With the Mix at 50, the repeats will be roughly as loud as the dry signal, depending on the type of delay. Some models the repeats are always pretty degraded, so I suppose the only way to get the repeats as loud as the dry signal is to set the Mix to something higher than 50. In that case, yes, you'd want to use the Level parameter to compensate for the attenuated dry signal.

 

I guess the reasoning behind setting the Mix control up like this is that it allows you to treat all these time-based effects (mods, delays and reverbs) as parallel effects. It's almost like having a controllable effects loop where you're controlling the blend between the wet and dry signal. It also gives you a consistent way to know what is happening to the dry signal. As long as you keep the Mix below 50, your dry signal will remain intact (one exception to this is the swell delays - in those the dry signal is affected by the swell effect). It also gives you the ability to create tones that are more wet than dry. So, overall, I think it's a little more flexible than other ways of handling it.

[Verne-Bunsen]

On 6/4/2019 at 12:09 PM, jbussiere said:

 

Ok this is super interesting. So effectively anything past 50% will begin to decrease my dry signal. So there is no way to get the volume level of repeats desired without loss of dry signal, if (obviously) I'm desiring something above 50%. In practice time this is fine, but live I need my repeats fairly high for them to come through the mix with the style of music I play live.

 

This is no way being snarky, but me trying to understand. What would the reasoning be for this? I'm just trying to understand the use case honestly. Thanks for this insight, this is totally new information.

 

One thought is, I haven't played with the "level" parameter much. Traditionally...the "mix" level is what gave you volume of your repeats. Does the "level" control knob within the delay options do something similar? Or does it boost overall volume? Essentially...could I keep the "mix" right at 50% but boost the "level" knob to get me where I need?

Like Phil said, “50” on the mix knob is a bit of a misnomer: it is actually unison (or as close as that particular delay model will come to unison) for the repeats. Below that the repeats will be more subtle, above that your dry signal will diminish. What configuration is it that you are trying to attain? 

[arislaf]

Just an idea, but why not use the dynamic delay, with 50% and a lot of repeats (this way you can have louder repeats) and when you play it is reduced or cut off.

[DJCouci]

I have the same problem, gain drop when using delays.  Legacy delays work fine. I´m pretty sure this is a bug not a feature, do you think we have update to fix this?  

[phil_m]

10 minutes ago, DJCouci said:

I have the same problem, gain drop when using delays.  Legacy delays work fine. I´m pretty sure this is a bug not a feature, do you think we have update to fix this?  

 

See my comments about the Mix parameter above. If you have it above 50, the dry signal will be attenuated.

[DJCouci]

16 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

See my comments about the Mix parameter above. If you have it above 50, the dry signal will be attenuated.

Hi. I have read this thread and checked the mix parameter, it´s not the issue. But I noticed that this happens when both L+R inputs are used, when using L/Mono input only  there is no gain drop. I use mono effects and I have splitted inputs L channel to electric and R channel to acoustic. Input A/B routing 100 -> L&R  input, output pan 100 L&R, everything else I have used works fine but the delay gain drop. When I pull the right channel input out there is no gain drop. 

 

[DJCouci]

7 hours ago, DJCouci said:

Hi. I have read this thread and checked the mix parameter, it´s not the issue. But I noticed that this happens when both L+R inputs are used, when using L/Mono input only  there is no gain drop. I use mono effects and I have splitted inputs L channel to electric and R channel to acoustic. Input A/B routing 100 -> L&R  input, output pan 100 L&R, everything else I have used works fine but the delay gain drop. When I pull the right channel input out there is no gain drop. 

 

I did more testing and noticed that this gain drop happens with all mono effects with split channels, when using stereo effects there is no gain drop. Should this unit work this way that you can´t use mono effects on splitted channels without gain drop? I think using the stereo effects do not sound like they should when using one channel only? Can you tell if the unit is working like it should, or am I missing something here, I can´t figure out why I couldn´t use mono effects on single channel.