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building transferrable patches.


reverendchewy
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Hello everyone, thanks for taking the time. I have been playing for 25 years, always been a dyed in the wool tube amp/pedals guy. I think the helix is absolutely remarkable, unlike anything i have heard before!! really enjoying mine!!  ok to my question, i am having a hard time dialing in patches that are transferrable to live situations, i play 2-3 times a week, plug direct to FOH and use IEM's. i think the old Fletcher Munson curve is getting me! i have been trying to build patches with headphones and my IEM's but with no luck. Is there a trick to building transferrable tones? Can it be done with headphones/ iem's or do i need to get a Headrush 108 or something like that? 

 

thanks a bunch

 

Chewy

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1 hour ago, reverendchewy said:

Hello everyone, thanks for taking the time. I have been playing for 25 years, always been a dyed in the wool tube amp/pedals guy. I think the helix is absolutely remarkable, unlike anything i have heard before!! really enjoying mine!!  ok to my question, i am having a hard time dialing in patches that are transferrable to live situations, i play 2-3 times a week, plug direct to FOH and use IEM's. i think the old Fletcher Munson curve is getting me! i have been trying to build patches with headphones and my IEM's but with no luck. Is there a trick to building transferrable tones? Can it be done with headphones/ iem's or do i need to get a Headrush 108 or something like that? 

 

thanks a bunch

 

Chewy

 

This is probably the most asked question around these parts. Here's yesterday's thread, lol:

 

 

Anyway, the short answer is "no". Change the output, and you change the tone. You'll never get your in-ears or headphones to sound exactly like what's pumping out of a giant PA system at Friday night drunk volume. You basically have 2 options:

 

1) A split path at the end of the chain going to different outputs, each EQ'd accordingly... one for your IEMs and the other for FOH.

 

2) Keep different set lists for different scenarios... live, headphones, studio monitors, etc. I've done this for years. It's a little more work initially, but in the end it saves you hours of back and forth knob twiddling, and you only have to do it once.

 

But no matter what you do, there are no magic settings that will provide perfect continuity across radically different kinds of monitoring and big volume fluctuations...even another FRFR speaker like the Headrush you mentioned (or anything else you choose to get) won't help you if you're not cranking it to stage volume when dialing in your tones. Nothing is immune to the Fletcher/ Munson effect.

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thanks for the link, some great information in that thread.  I suppose that is the question i should have asked, do i need to buy an frfr and build tones at stage volume to accomplish my goal? i currently do not have a way to build tones at stage volume and i cant use rehearsal time to play with my helix. so perhaps i answered my own question, thanks for your help

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4 hours ago, silverhead said:
6 hours ago, reverendchewy said:

thanks for the link, some great information in that thread.  I suppose that is the question i should have asked, do i need to buy an frfr and build tones at stage volume to accomplish my goal? i currently do not have a way to build tones at stage volume and i cant use rehearsal time to play with my helix. so perhaps i answered my own question, thanks for your help

That would be best.

 

But at the same time its not essential.

 

My workflow to sort patches is:

  • initial build using headphones (that I know very very well)
  • Levelling with DAW meters
  • Re-levelling with headphones
  • Leveling tweaking with stage setup (moderate volume)  <<< you'd likely skip this
  • Rent a room with good monitoring gear (ie FRFF type bins) and tweak and level patches
  • Practice with band (or do gig) and keep mental or real notes on what needs changing (tone, effects wet/dry mix, drive, ;evel between patches, perceived volume with the band, etc)
  • Adjust and iterate

Sounds long winded, but the more you do the more you'll 'get' what needs to be done to a patch for it to work live, and you get a lot quicker at it.  If you have someone that can come along and tweak as you play even better as it keeps it an online approach rather than stop start.

 

For me a patch doesn't stand on its own, it has to fit with the band so I often do sanity checks by playing along with prerecorded material as well to see how it sits - both at home and in a rehearsal room.

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59 minutes ago, waymda said:

 

...

If you have someone that can come along and tweak as you play even better as it keeps it an online approach rather than stop start.

...

 

Using the Helix looper is a great way to free up your hands for adjusting the tone. I use an external Digitech looper that has storage on it too. I have several different guitar loops saved for setting up different amp channels or tones, e.g.  clean, rhythm, lead, etc..  Every time I set up for example a preset with multiple amp channels I use the looper to dial in the different channels. My loop for clean might be an arpeggiated piece or a fragment from a song with a clean rhythm while the lead loop would be something intended to be more distorted or sustained...you get the idea.

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Thanks for all the great advice! It looks like some kind of speaker is going to be necessary for building patches. Do you prefer studio monitors, or something like the headrush 108, i have been seriously considering it. I know they say it’s flat response but nothing is truly flat. 

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1 hour ago, reverendchewy said:

I know they say it’s flat response but nothing is truly flat. 

 

Correct... just understand this going in: No matter what you pick, you're still gonna have to make adjustments when you get to rehearsal. No two PA-style FRFR speakers will sound identical, even at the same volume... that's just one piece of the puzzle. No less important is how a given tone sits in the mix with the rest of the band. You can blast away at home at stupid volume, through whatever speaker(s) you end up getting, eventually dialing in tones that you think are magnificent. But when you actually try and use them in context, they may turn out to be somewhat less than magical. What sounds great solo, even at an appropriate live volume, sometimes won't cut through a mix. Tinkering is inevitable, to some degree. I know I said it already, but it bears repeating...separate set lists for monitoring through different outputs, in different listening environments, and at big volume differences, is the key to sanity. Yes, it's more work up front...but in the end it will spare you hours of grief. Otherwise, get used to being in a constant state of fiddling with knobs and buttons instead of actually making music.

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