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XEQT

USB issue .. get electric noise

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Hi !

I have always loved my Helix until i got this issue. I whanted to use it for editing and inserted a USB cable into it and it started to hiss and i get preaty high eltric noise from it until i removed

the USB cable. I have tried sevral (around 5 diffrent cables) with the same result i have even removed all my other usb from my PC but still the noise is there.

Can it be that its sending the noise from my computer and thinks its a sound that should go out to my XLR/Amp or can i stop it from geting any from the cable.

I have other units with audio and they dont give this problem even with the same cables in it.

All i want to do is to setup patches with the cable. No recording or play sound from it.

My sockets in the wall are not grounded but then why would ONLY Helix have this issue then and not my other units ?? And via the USB cable only ??

I got a recomendation to use a powerd usb 3.0 hub for it. But my finances are not enough right now to buy that.

I would appricate help on this if there is some way to just controll the settings on Helix or if its broken.

I thought it was gone because i dident have the cord connected to my PC for a while and that showed me why it was that what gave me the answer to my problem before.

 

Many Thanks Roberth (Sweden)

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Are you using a laptop? If so, try disconnecting it from the wall (battery power).

If that doesn't work, I'd start by taking it to a local tech who can test your USB.

 

It could be that your other MultiFX units don't have this USB problem due to design differences. Out of curiosity, what other USB/Audio/multiFX units do you have that don't have this problem? Are they running off of two prong wall warts?

 

Having un-grounded electricity makes this difficult to diagnose, as most audio noise problems come down to grounding issues. I'd bet that L6 designed the Helix with the assumption that it would be used with grounded electrical connections.

 

Since use of EMI/RFI filters and surge arrestors is standard practice when using high end electronics, and those type devices require a ground, I have to wonder why you'd risk your valuable electronics with un-grounded electricity?

 

 

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Hi rd2rk !

 

Its a desktop with Windows 10 i am using. I have tried with removing all other usb and the same issue is still there. And even setting in diffrent ports dident help.

I have a 1300W power supply to run all i have in the computer.

 

I have a MOTU 16A sound card that i recently added a Thunderbolt card and is using it through that now i have even tried to use a USB-C hub and used the Thunderbolt with one of the ports as a USB unit with the same issue.

The sound card is working like a charm and thats both usb 2.0 and Thunderbolt 2.

I have an Echo unit that i can controll and listen to on usb and thats no issues there either ..

 

It's only on the Helix i hear the sound ..

 

The reasone for not having grounded sockets is because its a rent apartment i live in and they can do it but it's so expensive that its laughable .. Because they need to do it i can't get a firm for my self to do it so it a catch 22 there.

I would love to have it grounded in the whole apartment but right now i need to cough up to much to get that .. And if i move i will lose that for the next apartment.

I have a Lenovo laptop that i could test it with just to see how it works or not .. but its abit heavy to work on that because its a small screen .. but could be my saver .. Because i have a 24/48 mixer to use as recording and that is one more that i dont hear any noise from except the helix via XLR and thats connected on the same line as the other units power.

So if Line6 could give me some assist on how to disable the sound from the USB i might get it to work .. It's like it tries to use the output from the computer into the Helix .. I have hade this issue also with 2 motherboards .. first i hade a AMD and now a INTEL .. None of them could be used for this. I will test the laptop and see what will happen with that .. Oh and one more thing if i remove all inputs like the guitar all gets dead quiet .. So if i have no input into it works but if i insert my guitar it starts again .. Even if i use the Variax Standard it's the same ..

 

But i will test the laptop as soon as possible .. if you come up with more questions or tricks to test with let me know !!

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Funny .. I installed the newest hxedit and connected the laptop with the power supply connected to the same line of connections on the power line .. it worked like a charm no noise .. nothing just only the sound of the guitar .. how strange ??

It was the same cable and everything ..

So with or without the power supply dident give any disturbens at all ..

Thats very intressting.

 

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Reality is the biggest mystery of all!

Glad it's fixed, whatever the reason.

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I need to get a table to put the computer on :D .. i have no room for it now .. i need to put it on a small one maby IKEA here in Sweden has one i can use.

Thanks for the tip on the laptop !!

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On 8/11/2019 at 2:59 PM, XEQT said:

Funny .. I installed the newest hxedit and connected the laptop with the power supply connected to the same line of connections on the power line .. it worked like a charm no noise .. nothing just only the sound of the guitar .. how strange ??

It was the same cable and everything ..

So with or without the power supply dident give any disturbens at all ..

Thats very intressting.

 

Ground loop issue....just saying. 

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Can i correct that without spending €900 ??

If so it would be really good !!

 

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4 minutes ago, XEQT said:

Can i correct that without spending €900 ??

If so it would be really good !!

 

 

I thought you said that the update resolved the issue?

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Only if i use the laptop i can do it .. but i dont have space to put it no where around the desk i am using .. i only tested to see if it worked or not.

I have read about some units that can reamp stuff if i could use that to remove the ground loop from the guitar or maby some thing else ??

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The usual solution for ground loop problems is an isolation transformer in whichever audio path is causing the problem. This breaks the ground loop, but passes the audio. 

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1 minute ago, craiganderton said:

The usual solution for ground loop problems is an isolation transformer in whichever audio path is causing the problem. This breaks the ground loop, but passes the audio. 

 

I have to admit that I don't really understand ground loops. If his system isn't grounded (see his original post), can he even have a ground loop?

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5 minutes ago, craiganderton said:

The usual solution for ground loop problems is an isolation transformer in whichever audio path is causing the problem. This breaks the ground loop, but passes the audio. 

 

Can i use that without a ground socket or does it act as a ground unit instead of the socket in the wall ??

I'm also abit confused ..

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What else is connected to the helix?   we've got a laptop so far, what else?  

you can try other sockets if avaialbe, that sometimes will help. 

Good luck, nothing like a good ground loop issue to drive you mad.  IF that is the case.

 

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The real system is this 

 

Computer (I9-9900k)

Monitor (42")

MOTU 16A Soundcard

Behringer Eurodesk SX4882 (Mixer) (Analog)

M-Audio BX5 (Speakers)

M-Audio M3-6 (Speakers) 

Behringer Compressor Multicompro (4 channel Analog)

Behringer Compressor Pro XL (2 Channel Analog)

JTS US-903DC (Wieless Guitar/Bas/other instruments also, Analog)

Lexicon MX 400 XL (Digital echo)

AKG Duo2 (Wierless Guitar/Bas, Analog)

Dell R410 Server (Enterprise Server 24 cores)

Helix Rack With 2.81 and the pedal bord to it with 2 expression pedals in it.

And the last one is the IN5 Analog amp.

 

None of the other system analog or not get the ground issue only the Helix gives me this error and thats all on the same socket that i have most are in a 19" rack.

But the computers isent and not the mixer its to big :D ..

So if there where a ground loop should that be noticed along the other equipment ??

I can listen on my IN5 amp with headphones a that is as clean as it should be. I can even connect it to my wierless without any problem its clean and fresh.

So i am very mistified with what could be wrong.

I have usb to 3 units and one thunderbolt. Those are for sound interfaces.

Edited by XEQT
Left out for sound

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ohh .. forgot my EQ a Behringer Ultragraph Pro

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Unplug all of your USB devices. Everything, including the HELIX, turned ON and wired normally except all USB disconnected.

No noise? 

Plug in the Helix USB. Noise?

If there's no noise until you plug in the Helix USB, with the ONLY USB device connected by USB being the Helix, then there's the problem.

 

Nobody can fully troubleshoot a system like yours on a forum. The fact that your system isn't properly grounded and filtered for EMI/RFI interference further complicates the situation.

You've already discovered the solution, using the laptop for the Helix. Nobody can help you with the logistics of where to put the laptop. You gotta do what you gotta do.

 

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I have unplugged all of the usb and even keyboard/mouse and as soon as i put in the first cable that is the helix .. supprise Noise .. and even if i change the port the noise gets there .. also .. so i dosen't matter what port if i have 1 usb (The Helix) in there it still produces exactly the same noise level .. So why just the Helix ??

you saw the list of units i have and NONE of them have sound problems both analog and digital ones .. i have already pulled my hair of and then some and still come up with nothing ..

and all i want to do is to just control the unit easy from my big computer ..

And i have tried to use diffrent ports and all that .. Aux, Variax, Guitar and even inserts .. 

Is it just me or do i have to start to cough up €900 for grounding of the apartment for one unit that is "sensitiv" ..

 

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I have even tried to use a external hub with the same problem .. but thou it was not powered by a power supply.

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1 hour ago, XEQT said:

.. So why just the Helix ??

 

Who knows why? Like I said in my previous post, nobody can troubleshoot your whole system on a forum.

I, too, have a whole bunch of stuff connected to my system, and NO extraneous noise whatever. Let's see, what's the primary and most visible difference between your system and mine?

My electricity is properly grounded, and EVERYTHING runs off of the same properly grounded circuit, through high grade EMI/RFI filters.

Could that make a difference.....maybe. But what the heck, just blame the Helix.

 

THOUSANDS of happy Helix users in houses, apartments, high end studios and sleazy bars use Helix without USB noise problems. A handful, such as yourself, seem to be cursed.

I'd like to be able to give you a logical, scientific answer that doesn't require you to move to a dwelling with proper grounding, but I can't.

You have a solution. Your laptop.

It may not be convenient, but it's obviously more convenient at this time than moving. Why stress over answers that no one can give?

 

WAIT! I'll give it one last try. Is the Helix USB cable running parallel and close to a power cable? I hope that's it, 'cause it's all I got.

Good Luck!

 

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1 hour ago, XEQT said:

I have even tried to use a external hub with the same problem .. but thou it was not powered by a power supply.

 

Line 6 SPECIFICALLY states DO NOT USE HUBS!

Whoever gave you that info is misinformed.

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I will test that with a power cable .. i could just run it trough another way too .. but i will give it a try tomorrow .. 

A question thou .. What is EMI/RFI filters ??

Maby they wont even install that if i change it to grounded in the apartment ??

Just curioes ..

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27 minutes ago, XEQT said:

I will test that with a power cable .. i could just run it trough another way too .. but i will give it a try tomorrow .. 

A question thou .. What is EMI/RFI filters ??

Maby they wont even install that if i change it to grounded in the apartment ??

Just curioes ..

 

You just have to look at how the cables are routed. If the USB cable is running parallel to ANY power cable, then re-route it or separate them by about a foot..

 

EMI (electromagnetic interference) and RMI (radio frequency interference) are hardware filters present on pretty much every power strip with surge arrestor/suppressor ever built. However, since these devices (surge arrestor/suppressors) work by shunting excess voltage (as might occur due to a nearby lightning strike) to ground. Obviously, that won't work for you, and a power strip thus configured might even start a fire if it tries to shunt a large voltage spike to a non-existent ground. You can get Ferrite Core clip on noise filters like these:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/Ogrmar-20PCS-Filter-Suppressor-Diameter/dp/B07BWC5ZTW/ref=sr_1_6?crid=3KBNBLGGO101O&keywords=emi%2Frfi+filter&qid=1565735825&s=electronics&sprefix=emi%2Frfi%2Caps%2C174&sr=1-6

 

but I have no idea how effective they are. IIRC, the USB cable that came with my HD500 had one of these built into the cable, but the cable that came with the Helix did not. If you have a USB cable with one of these built in, you could try it.

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On 8/13/2019 at 12:01 PM, rd2rk said:

 

I have to admit that I don't really understand ground loops. If his system isn't grounded (see his original post), can he even have a ground loop?

 

There is grounding among the various units, regardless of whether they connect to a power line ground or not. Here's an article you might find helpful.

 

FWIW I once had a problem where audio devices hooked up to my computer's USB had noise. Apparently the motherboard's USB port was "dirty" - for example, USB hard drives connected to the computer caused clicking and other noises. The solution was getting a USB card, which I dedicated solely to audio devices.

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54 minutes ago, craiganderton said:

There is grounding among the various units, regardless of whether they connect to a power line ground or not. Here's an article you might find helpful.

 

 

Priceless!

This is one of those "If only people would search before posting a new thread" subjects. Everybody should read this, and I'm Bookmarking it for future reference. Thanks!

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