Flatter Frequency Response IR-s?

[Ka5par]

Does anybody know of IR-s that are made from full range speakers or guitar cab-s that are more full range than regular ones?
Maybe even some acoustic amp cabinet or a synth cabinet?

I'm looking into making some clearer sound with more high and bass definition, but blending in a parallel path without cab can sound a bit too buzzy with overdrive.
So a more neutral IR might be just the thing.
Also IR-s can be switched with snapshots, so maybe a clearer for less overdrive and a regular guitar cab for more.

[cruisinon2]

6 hours ago, Ka5par said:

Does anybody know of IR-s that are made from full range speakers

 

IR's simulate mic-ed guitar speakers, same as the onboard cab blocks in Helix. Some kind of cabinet emulation is necessary with any type of FRFR output if you want your tone to sound anything like what we all typically associate with an electric guitar. There wouldn't be much point to an IR made from an FRFR speaker, because that's not what makes a guitar sound like what it is. It would be the redundant... like running a Marshall cab sim through an actual Marshall cabinet.

 

Quote

or guitar cab-s that are more full range than regular ones?

 

There is no such thing. If guitar cabinets were full range, they wouldn't sound like guitar cabinets, they'd sound like PA speakers or studio monitors. The (severely) limited frequency response and directional nature of guitar cabinets is what makes them sound like what they are. Alter that too much, and you wouldn't have a "guitar tone" anymore.

 

Quote

Maybe even some acoustic amp cabinet or a synth cabinet?

 

Acoustic and keyboard amps are pretty close to FRFR systems as it is, so again, making an IR to simulate what you've already got sitting in front of you as your monitor, is redundant.

 

Quote

but blending in a parallel path without cab can sound a bit too buzzy with overdrive.

 

That'll never work... the only time using no cab sims makes sense, is if you're monitoring through an actual guitar cabinet.

 

Quote

So a more neutral IR might be just the thing.

 

I think you may be a little confused as to what IR's are for...they're not supposed to be neutral. They're emulations of specific speaker and mic combinations that are decidedly NOT neutral, intended to be monitored through the clean slate of an FRFR output... your monitor itself is the only thing you want "neutral". A neutral IR coming out of a neutral FRFR speaker won't sound produce a "guitar tone", as we all know it.

[Ka5par]

3 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

I think you may be a little confused as to what IR's are for...they're not supposed to be neutral. They're emulations of specific speaker and mic combinations that are decidedly NOT neutral, intended to be monitored through the clean slate of an FRFR output... your monitor itself is the only thing you want "neutral". A neutral IR coming out of a neutral FRFR speaker won't sound produce a "guitar tone", as we all know it.

 

Thanks for answering. I'm actually not that confused about IR-s as it might look at the first glance. Like you said, for the standard guitar tone the regular cab is desirable. But for other tones, especially when not playing a guitar, some other tones might also be needed.
I'm looking for a middle ground of guitar cabinet lo-fi sound and full range. Even full range speakers, when miced up will color the sound, so that little color is what I'm looking for.

 

This is for the Chapman Stick in this case, but I would use this kind of subtler coloring for a synth also.

 

The closest by description I've found so far are these, but they're not straight wav-s, so unusable:

https://austinbuddy.com/products/austinbuddys-vintage-cab-pack-wfractal-audio/
KEYBOARD AMP — three keyboard IRs based on a Roland® keyboard amp, plus a room mic.

[ric1966]

If you can find an IR made with a vintage ElectroVoice (EV) 12” speaker that may do the trick. I vaguely recall them being cleaner sounding with less breakup than your typical Celestion. I think their power rating was in the 150-200 watt range.

[Ka5par]

2 hours ago, ric1966 said:

If you can find an IR made with a vintage ElectroVoice (EV) 12” speaker that may do the trick. I vaguely recall them being cleaner sounding with less breakup than your typical Celestion. I think their power rating was in the 150-200 watt range.

 

Thanks, I found a couple.
RedWirez has some:
https://www.redwirez.com/bigbox.jsp
Speakerbox • EVM12L 200-watt 12" • IR Library:

Impulse responses of a 200 watt Electro-Voice EVM12L. Electro-Voice says, "the EVM12L is a full range speaker with a frequency response specially tailored to cut through the thickest mixes"... and we believe them. Nice low end, too.

With the Speakerbox series we set out to capture the essential character of some legendary speaker and mic combinations with just a dash of color. To that end, we housed our speakers in a solid mahogany, open-backed cabinet. The cab's lightweight, resonant shell is designed to fill a room with 3 dimensional, lively tone rather than box it in and project it forward.

They have the EV also as part of Mesa Halfback 2x12, Mesa Mark IIC+ .

 

Choices...

[gunpointmetal]

I know a lot of people will disable the cab and even amp sim all-together for clean/acoustic sounds. A little studio compression and a parametric EQ can do a lot to an electric guitar signal.

[Ka5par]

6 hours ago, gunpointmetal said:

I know a lot of people will disable the cab and even amp sim all-together for clean/acoustic sounds. A little studio compression and a parametric EQ can do a lot to an electric guitar signal.

Yeah, that's an option too. I'm having a moderate success with one path using an IR and a parallel path with hi-cut EQ at 8kHz.

[HonestOpinion]

On 8/13/2019 at 3:45 PM, Ka5par said:

Does anybody know of IR-s that are made from full range speakers or guitar cab-s that are more full range than regular ones?
Maybe even some acoustic amp cabinet or a synth cabinet?

I'm looking into making some clearer sound with more high and bass definition, but blending in a parallel path without cab can sound a bit too buzzy with overdrive.
So a more neutral IR might be just the thing.
Also IR-s can be switched with snapshots, so maybe a clearer for less overdrive and a regular guitar cab for more.

 

I would focus on the speakers that are used in amps that are more famous for their clean sounds, e.g. Fender Twin, Hiwatt(when not cranked), Roland Jazz Chorus, Gallien-Kruger, certain Boogies like the Lonestar (not triple rec), etc.. This is a good place to start although the clean tones through some of the amps known for their crunch/lead tones can surprise you. Often although not always the speakers that have higher power handling specs like the EVs ric1966 mentioned tend to yield more pristine clean sounds as they usually break up later.

 

As you noted snapshots work well for switching IRs and can also switch between Helix built in cabs although you will need two cab instances so it will require more DSP.  Experimenting with the Helix cabs may give you a better idea of which IRs you want to purchase. There are also acoustic IRs that can be used for clean tones although they are generally most useful if you are going for an acoustic guitar sound.

 

Clean tones can also be a bit subjective. A jazz player generally is often looking for a pristine clean sound with infinite headroom and no chance of breakup. Rock players will often use a clean tone on the edge of breakup and may be perfectly happy with for example a Soldano, Bogner, or Marhall clean tone, so to some extent it depends on what tone you are going for and the material you are playing.  Adding compression and and a bit of chorus can help too and make sure the 'Headroom' parameter is maxed out on the delays on the Helix to minimize breakup. Lastly not to state the obvious but the amp you select is going to make a huge difference as well.

[Ka5par]

9 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

There are also acoustic IRs that can be used for clean tones although they are generally most useful if you are going for an acoustic guitar sound. 

Do you mean the IR-s of the acoustic guitar body itself? I've seen those, need to test them as well.

 

9 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

Clean tones can also be a bit subjective. A jazz player generally is often looking for a pristine clean sound with infinite headroom and no chance of breakup. Rock players will often use a clean tone on the edge of breakup and may be perfectly happy with for example a Soldano, Bogner, or Marhall clean tone, so to some extent it depends on what tone you are going for and the material you are playing.  Adding compression and and a bit of chorus can help too and make sure the 'Headroom' parameter is maxed out on the delays on the Helix to minimize breakup. Lastly not to state the obvious but the amp you select is going to make a huge difference as well.

 

I'm looking for the extended freq response at both ends, because the Stick goes to low C - 1/2 step above 5 string bass. And so some bass amps have been quite good - Cougar, Cali Bass, Woody Blue. But also some guitar amps - Archetype Clean, Brit J45 Brt.

I'm tweaking a tone that gives me cleaner sound while playing softly and breaks up when played louder.

I need the bass without farting and the extra bite at the top, so it doesn't sound muffled. Blending two paths together has been the way so far. So I'm experimenting various ways of getting the path without a cab to sound a bit nicer - EQ hi cut and now the more exotic IR-s.

 

It would also be useful to be able by using snapshots to go to a more distorted rhythm and solo sound. That might work by blending less of the bright cab or cabless path, when using more distortion, so the sound doesn't get harsh. While the Bass amps do the break-up quite nicely, the higher distortion isn't as good

[HonestOpinion]

14 hours ago, Ka5par said:

Do you mean the IR-s of the acoustic guitar body itself? I've seen those, need to test them as well.

...

 

For example the 3Sigma acoustic IRs  - https://www.3sigmaaudio.com/acoustic-impulses/

[Ka5par]

I haven't yet bought any IR-s, but I've found some free ones.
Some IR-s of vintage mics (this is essentially what I was looking for):

https://micirp.blogspot.com/p/about-micirp.html

 

And some of acoustic instruments:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/1125801-impulse-responses-acoustic-guitar-body.html

 

I made a couple of sound tests blending the regular guitar cabs and one of these. The results are not perfect, but in that directon.
I needed to add the IR-s in a DAW instead of Helix, because the mic ones phase needed to be adjusted.
 

The mic and and acoustic blends with guitar cabs. 2 clips of each, playing the same sound softly and harder:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1q0adb2unqpy7bf/AAB5qMcJD27yhOEQRZo10cs3a?dl=0

[HonestOpinion]

18 minutes ago, Ka5par said:

I haven't yet bought any IR-s, but I've found some free ones.
Some IR-s of vintage mics (this is essentially what I was looking for):

https://micirp.blogspot.com/p/about-micirp.html

 

And some of acoustic instruments:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/1125801-impulse-responses-acoustic-guitar-body.html

 

I made a couple of sound tests blending the regular guitar cabs and one of these. The results are not perfect, but in that directon.
I needed to add the IR-s in a DAW instead of Helix, because the mic ones phase needed to be adjusted.
 

The mic and and acoustic blends with guitar cabs. 2 clips of each, playing the same sound softly and harder:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1q0adb2unqpy7bf/AAB5qMcJD27yhOEQRZo10cs3a?dl=0

 

There are a bunch of links for free IRs here as well:

 

[Ka5par]

Thanks, I'll look at these as well.