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jorgealberto25

Why helix hardware sounds better than the plugin??

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Maybe there’s allot of questions about this but I can’t find the answers. I downloaded the demo again to to try helix native and I was not impressed with the tone. On the high gain models it was all muddy that you have to back off the gain but you lose the bite. 

 

At GC I tried the hardware version and it sounded way better no muddy. And even with the power cab also being demoed. It sounded like an amp.

yes I tried all settings in studio one 3, my lab top and Scarlett second gen. Funny thing that other plugins sound better than native and have more volume.

any reason why some computers don’t sound good with native. Some people have the same issue but no answer.

 

 should I go for the helix lt or save for the floor or if I fix the issue just purchase native?

i wanna plug and play and learn lots of songs from different genres. So recording my own music will be once and while.

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With the same input source/dry track, Native and the hardware will sound exactly the same. The guitar inputs on the Helix hardware are optimized for electric guitars in a way that most generic audio interfaces aren't.

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1 hour ago, jorgealberto25 said:

At GC I tried the hardware version and it sounded way better no muddy. And even with the power cab also being demoed. It sounded like an amp.

yes I tried all settings in studio one 3, my lab top and Scarlett second gen. Funny thing that other plugins sound better than native and have more volume.

any reason why some computers don’t sound good with native. Some people have the same issue but no answer.


 

 

The Powercab sounded like an amp because it is an amp. You made no mention of what you were monitoring through at home when you tried the Native demo. If you were using headphones, studio monitors, or some other FRFR speaker, then comparing it to the Powercab is rather pointless... it's a different animal. The whole point of the Powercab is to provide the "amp in the room" feel that some guys can't do without.

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On your Scarlett be sure you're using the INSTRUMENT input. Hit a big chord LOUD and turn up the Input level till it flashes yellow, then back off a notch.

Unless you're using the same playback system at home as you used at GC, it will sound different, though it shouldn't sound worse than other plugins. 

Native has an Input meter. set it so that it's peaking around -20db.

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52 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

The Powercab sounded like an amp because it is an amp. You made no mention of what you were monitoring through at home when you tried the Native demo. If you were using headphones, studio monitors, or some other FRFR speaker, then comparing it to the Powercab is rather pointless... it's a different animal. The whole point of the Powercab is to provide the "amp in the room" feel that some guys can't do without.

I’m using studio one 3, a thosiba labtop with  AMD 1.90ghz. 8gb ram. Scarlett 6i6 and two jbls lsr308.

 

my only complain is that the high gain stuff specially when you palm mute it’s muddy and distorted. On the helix hardware same settings didn’t sounded like that. I bet that if I buy the hardware and connect it to my daw it won’t sound like that. There’s people here that have similar issues and there’s no answer. People are using less powerful computers and native works fine. So I don’t know wants the problem.

maybe native doesn’t like certain computers? Lol

 

the speaker was a head rush power cab 

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5 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

On your Scarlett be sure you're using the INSTRUMENT input. Hit a big chord LOUD and turn up the Input level till it flashes yellow, then back off a notch.

Unless you're using the same playback system at home as you used at GC, it will sound different, though it shouldn't sound worse than other plugins. 

Native has an Input meter. set it so that it's peaking around -20db.

Yeap i already try that. Yes it sounds bad. Revalver 4 sounds 10 times better

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21 minutes ago, jorgealberto25 said:

Yeap i already try that. Yes it sounds bad. Revalver 4 sounds 10 times better

 

I have a Scarlett 2nd gen. Using Reaper, LIVE or Cakewalk, Native sounds EXACTLY like Helix Floor. Using Helis as interface instead of Scarlett, Native sounds EXACTLY like Floor.

 

Maybe you just don't like the way Helix sounds.

 

Different strokes....

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36 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

On your Scarlett be sure you're using the INSTRUMENT input. Hit a big chord LOUD and turn up the Input level till it flashes yellow, then back off a notch.

Unless you're using the same playback system at home as you used at GC, it will sound different, though it shouldn't sound worse than other plugins. 

Native has an Input meter. set it so that it's peaking around -20db.

 

What you really want is unity gain from the interface. I'm not sure where that would be on the Scarlett, but on other interfaces it would be with the knob all the way down. Native is very sensitive to input levels, so you'd want instrument level, like you said - ideally with no gain added.

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Just now, phil_m said:

 

What you really want is unity gain from the interface. I'm not sure where that would be on the Scarlett, but on other interfaces it would be with the knob all the way down. Native is very sensitive to input levels, so you'd want instrument level, like you said - ideally with no gain added.

 

There's a significant (10db) difference between the humbuckers on my PRS and the single coils on my Strat, as registered on the Native Input meter. That's where you need to turn up the Input knob on the Scarlett. Using the Input meter on the Scarlett as I described prevents over driving the Scarlett's preamps and provides the best signal to the DAW/plugin.

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28 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

There's a significant (10db) difference between the humbuckers on my PRS and the single coils on my Strat, as registered on the Native Input meter. That's where you need to turn up the Input knob on the Scarlett. Using the Input meter on the Scarlett as I described prevents over driving the Scarlett's preamps and provides the best signal to the DAW/plugin.

 

IMO, you'd be better off compensating for the output difference from your pickups in Native itself rather than with the interface.

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1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

 

I have a Scarlett 2nd gen. Using Reaper, LIVE or Cakewalk, Native sounds EXACTLY like Helix Floor. Using Helis as interface instead of Scarlett, Native sounds EXACTLY like Floor.

 

Maybe you just don't like the way Helix sounds.

 

Different strokes....

I believe you that it sounds the same. But its weird that with other people it doesn’t. I think the software doesn’t like some computers. Just my theory lol

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15 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

IMO, you'd be better off compensating for the output difference from your pickups in Native itself rather than with the interface.

I think that hardware win here? No need for adjustments like the plugin and the interface

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35 minutes ago, jorgealberto25 said:

I think that hardware win here? No need for adjustments like the plugin and the interface

 

I think using the Helix hardware as the source of the dry track for Native is the best way to go if you want to ensure you have matching tones from the hardware and Native.

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2 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

IMO, you'd be better off compensating for the output difference from your pickups in Native itself rather than with the interface.

 

We can agree to disagree on that.

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8 hours ago, phil_m said:

With the same input source/dry track, Native and the hardware will sound exactly the same. The guitar inputs on the Helix hardware are optimized for electric guitars in a way that most generic audio interfaces aren't.

 

My Apollo Quad has two dedicated "Hi-Z" inputs specifically made for guitar and Native does not sound as good to me as Helix does. I'm sure you might not think so Phil but my ears disagree. ; )

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Just to weigh in, while I've had a Native preset behave differently than it did in the Stomp sound wise, I don't personally think the products sound different. Just that sometimes if I move a Stomp preset to Native I have to adjust it slightly to get it back to how I want it to sound, or if I move a Native preset to Stomp, same thing sometimes. Both seem capable of sounding identical with tweaking, however. 

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Its not just sound :) its feel (feedback with fingers) also - hard to explain - instantly noticed that with the floor unit - that I never felt with a plugin

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58 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

Both seem capable of sounding identical with tweaking, however. 

 

Yep I can agree to that. I can tweak my guitar and sound just like Chet Atkins too. Well, I seem "capable" of sounding identical with tweaking at times. ; )

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You cannot objectively compare Native against the hardware unit going to a powercab vs your monitoring methods. its 2 different worlds and has been debated endlessly with generally the same outcome every time. 

they are the same inherently but with different inputs / outputs, you need to adjust gain staging and learn how to use all the tools provided to get the tone you want. 

 

I don't know a lot about the JBL monitors,  but a power cab is a professional device made with intention....the price points between the two will assure that.  

You have a very large gap to overcome before you will convince yourself how good this unit really is.  Native or hardware. 

 

I don't believe helix in my mind, was a turn key device or just plug and play....this is an expansive device that is a tool and is set generally wide open and needs to be "reeled" back in to where it makes your ears happy...

 

regardless, enjoy the journey, its a good one, if you should so choose to enter that rabbit hole.....blue pill or red one...the choice is yours. 

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I wonder how many of these comparisons are being done "live"?  Let me explain:

 

Helix Native is a VST based plug-in for a DAW running on a PC/Mac.  These are using general compute x86 based CPUs.  These CPUs are not designed for DSP processing natively.  While running the plug-in live, I predict that helix Native is giving an approximation of what it should sound like after it's rendered.  

 

Helix Floor/LT/Stomp/etc... are all running a custom Helix Core OS on an embedded (most likely ARM based) CPU and separate DSP Processors that work in real time.  
 

I wonder if you record a track from a Helix hardware unit with both the processed track and the dry track from the Helix, and run Helix Native on the dry track (reamping) and RENDER the file, if you could tell a difference?  

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23 minutes ago, robertgoddard said:

Helix Native is a VST based plug-in for a DAW running on a PC/Mac.  These are using general compute x86 based CPUs.  These CPUs are not designed for DSP processing natively.  While running the plug-in live, I predict that helix Native is giving an approximation of what it should sound like after it's rendered.  

 

I'm sure that's not the case... If you enable monitoring through your DAW, you're hearing the audio being processed in real-time (real-time including whatever latency there is, of course). That's the case for all VSTs, really.

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1 hour ago, robertgoddard said:

 

I wonder if you record a track from a Helix hardware unit with both the processed track and the dry track from the Helix, and run Helix Native on the dry track (reamping) and RENDER the file, if you could tell a difference?  

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "render" and why that makes a difference?

I have recorded wet/dry with Helix and re-amped the dry track with Native. I can't tell the difference. YMMV.

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lol stupid me I lowered the input knob on the Scarlett all the way to zero and that kinda work.

So yes the head rush power cab is making the hardware sound I guess a little better now that I made that adjustment

 

can’t wait to try some IRs. any good free ones or the ones available for purchase are better?

 

thinking about it, I don’t play live or in a cover band so for me the hardware will be expensive. Maybe the hx stomp to make it easier and also well I don’t have buy the plugin for $400! 

 

Also ill go for a tube amp it inspires me to play. I don’t know maybe it’s just me but the first time I played one there was this feeling that with the modelers I can’t get.

 

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1 hour ago, jorgealberto25 said:

can’t wait to try some IRs. any good free ones or the ones available for purchase are better?

 

 

1 hour ago, jorgealberto25 said:

Also ill go for a tube amp it inspires me to play. I don’t know maybe it’s just me but the first time I played one there was this feeling that with the modelers I can’t get.

 

That's because you are used to the amp in the room sound....speakers moving air.....that unmistakable thump when you lay into a chord.  A modeler is more like a miced amp, in the studio, in another room, monitored in the control room.....i.e. It's that guitar sound you hear on your favorite album.

 

With a modeler, you're not just dialing the amp, but you are also dialing in EQ and (sometimes) compression.  You're not just a guitarist anymore.  You've also become the sound engineer.  At least that's the way I approach it when building my patches.  If you don't know a lot about EQ and compression, be prepared for a learning curve.  It's not that hard to get a great sound out of a modeler if you know what you're doing.

 

Last piece of advice.  Factory presets suck.  You can somewhat use them as a "how-to" guide.  But you will have the most success if you build your own from scratch.  

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On 8/29/2019 at 8:46 PM, lungho said:

 

 

 

That's because you are used to the amp in the room sound....speakers moving air.....that unmistakable thump when you lay into a chord.  A modeler is more like a miced amp, in the studio, in another room, monitored in the control room.....i.e. It's that guitar sound you hear on your favorite album.

 

With a modeler, you're not just dialing the amp, but you are also dialing in EQ and (sometimes) compression.  You're not just a guitarist anymore.  You've also become the sound engineer.  At least that's the way I approach it when building my patches.  If you don't know a lot about EQ and compression, be prepared for a learning curve.  It's not that hard to get a great sound out of a modeler if you know what you're doing.

 

Last piece of advice.  Factory presets suck.  You can somewhat use them as a "how-to" guide.  But you will have the most success if you build your own from scratch.  

Yes I understand. But it’s not because I’m use to it. I been playing with real amps at some local stores for the past few weeks and there’s this feel that modelers don’t have.

 

maybe if I was touring and playing live I will definitely buy a Helix floor. But I’m just at home learning. so plugins will work for recording and the real amp that I will purchase will be for practicing. 

 

Anyone here doesn’t play live and uses the helix hardware at home? What are the benefits?

 

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The sound quality Helix Native is subject to the quality of your audio interface's A/D converter.

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3 hours ago, hideout said:

The sound quality Helix Native is subject to the quality of your audio interface's A/D converter.

 

Every time and twice on Sunday. 

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Sorry for the necro but I wanted to post a link to recordings using the native and the HX stomp back to back

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4uxapgw9rmkrq0z/Helix_test.wav?dl=0

 

I've been chasing why all the plugins sound so fizzy, I know a producer who took the exact same patch and played 2 different guitars through then, took a guitar and ran it through the HX before hitting native. Now listen to the audio file - you tell me which one was the HX stomp, the difference isn't slight its utterly beyond comparison, please please check the link i posted as we're trying to find out why this, and we feel subseqently all other amp sims might be getting a bad rap for being hard etc etc.

 

We've record through focusrite interfaces, behringer x32 interfaces etc and we need to find out what the issue is. I don't want to have to rely on the hardware unit to get sounds ITB.

 

This is the video that started it all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8NaX2u1anw&t=420s

he's using the NATIVE and only the HX stomp can get the tone he's showing.

 

We copied his chain exactly all plugins, all settings down to the letter. Can line6 say without a shadow of a doubt what my interface/input specs need to be in order to match the HX stomps tone when ITB?

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Without us seeing the exact chain, levels, your DAW etc, it's only ever going to be wild speculation. It's very unlikely to be down to the brand of hardware you use and quite likely to be down to some extreme level differences or mistakes in setting up the patch. If I had to guess I'd say the 1st and 2nd examples in that Helix_test.wav have the guitar signal coming in too high.

 

I have released 1 album and 1 EP almost entirely of Helix Native tones and I've gigged several of those songs live with Helix Floor, and I never noticed any significant difference that I couldn't just put down to the virtual cab vs. a real cab.

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34 minutes ago, kylotan said:

Without us seeing the exact chain, levels, your DAW etc, it's only ever going to be wild speculation.

 

Attach a copy of your preset so we can test it ourselves.

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9 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

Sorry for the necro but I wanted to post a link to recordings using the native and the HX stomp back to back

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4uxapgw9rmkrq0z/Helix_test.wav?dl=0

 

I've been chasing why all the plugins sound so fizzy, I know a producer who took the exact same patch and played 2 different guitars through then, took a guitar and ran it through the HX before hitting native. Now listen to the audio file - you tell me which one was the HX stomp, the difference isn't slight its utterly beyond comparison, please please check the link i posted as we're trying to find out why this, and we feel subseqently all other amp sims might be getting a bad rap for being hard etc etc.

 

We've record through focusrite interfaces, behringer x32 interfaces etc and we need to find out what the issue is. I don't want to have to rely on the hardware unit to get sounds ITB.

 

This is the video that started it all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8NaX2u1anw&t=420s

he's using the NATIVE and only the HX stomp can get the tone he's showing.

 

We copied his chain exactly all plugins, all settings down to the letter. Can line6 say without a shadow of a doubt what my interface/input specs need to be in order to match the HX stomps tone when ITB?

 

The first two clips sounds like DI recordings. The last clip, I can clearly hear the strings of the guitar being picked, meaning it was recorded from a mic'd cab or coming out of monitors. All the difference you're hearing is likely due to that alone, because recording a sound coming out of monitors will be colored by the speakers themselves, the natural reverb of the room, and the signal chain of whatever microphone was used to record it...

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9 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

We copied his chain exactly all plugins, all settings down to the letter.

 

Why copy? That's just a good way to make a mistake.

Export the Helix preset then import it into Native. Adjust the input level and see what it does!

 

If you are using IR blocks.... are the same IR's being loaded? 

 

FWIW... My live preset in my Helix... when imported into Native... sounds identical once the input gain is properly set!

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15 hours ago, kylotan said:

Without us seeing the exact chain, levels, your DAW etc, it's only ever going to be wild speculation. It's very unlikely to be down to the brand of hardware you use and quite likely to be down to some extreme level differences or mistakes in setting up the patch. If I had to guess I'd say the 1st and 2nd examples in that Helix_test.wav have the guitar signal coming in too high.

 

I have released 1 album and 1 EP almost entirely of Helix Native tones and I've gigged several of those songs live with Helix Floor, and I never noticed any significant difference that I couldn't just put down to the virtual cab vs. a real cab.

Whilst I appreciate your success with the Native, unfortunately myself and others have noticed the problem.

 

You're right, the first thing we went to was the input level, I can drop 12db using the trim and I can pad the DI guitar down another 20db on the input

 

I've check the input range on the helix is between -36db and -12 as it says, however I've found the most consistent feel is around more -18 to -12 BUT the fizz is horrendous and nt at all the same as the stomp. Unless of course the stomp was used to create the DI. Nothing more.

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15 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Attach a copy of your preset so we can test it ourselves.

Metal Stuff.hlx

 

As requested, however we've been using external IR loaders like Nadir, as described in the video that was linked and the same throughout.

 

The exact impulse used was OH 412 ORN M25 OH1-05 in both the video and in our tests and comes from the OH Heavy Hitters collection Vol 2

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13 hours ago, qwerty42 said:

 

The first two clips sounds like DI recordings. The last clip, I can clearly hear the strings of the guitar being picked, meaning it was recorded from a mic'd cab or coming out of monitors. All the difference you're hearing is likely due to that alone, because recording a sound coming out of monitors will be colored by the speakers themselves, the natural reverb of the room, and the signal chain of whatever microphone was used to record it...

 

Welp you're wrong the first 50secs or so is 2 different guitars, 2 different locations, SAME patch and IR running through native, the last part of the sound is the SAME SETUP just using the HX stomp for the DI tone, nothing more.

 

So just to clarify, the HX stomp was used to create the tone which doesn't sound like arse, it was recorded in dry THEN the helix native was added.

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12 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

Why copy? That's just a good way to make a mistake.

Export the Helix preset then import it into Native. Adjust the input level and see what it does!

 

If you are using IR blocks.... are the same IR's being loaded? 

 

FWIW... My live preset in my Helix... when imported into Native... sounds identical once the input gain is properly set!

 

Did you watch the video? The signal chain is so insanely simple, we've replicated it on the DAW inside Native and outboard using the HX stomp.

 

The moment the stomp gets involved the sound inside Native dramatically improves. I've now got 4 different people with 4 different interfaces who are all trying different line level tests as they are just as shocked at the difference.

 

Hence why i wanna know what's going on with the HX stomp on the input and how i can match those specs, cos for the most part either a) people are happy to settle for a crappy tone or b) just got damn lucky on certain setups (or peoples ears are a touch bad / got used to the sound)

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3 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

So just to clarify, the HX stomp was used to create the tone which doesn't sound like arse, it was recorded in dry THEN the helix native was added.

 

3 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

Hence why i wanna know what's going on with the HX stomp on the input and how i can match those specs...

 

I see what you are asking now now....

You piggy backed onto a thread with one problem but you are describing something very different. Hence... confusion :) 

 

What we know.... 

  1. NATIVE and DEVICE sound the same....
  2. DEVICE is consistent because the hardware is setup for guitar
  3. NATIVE can vary depending on the interface used to get the signal into the computer. 

You really want to know if the HX is recording a pure dry tone, or if it is enhanced in any way! 

I guess it's a fair question to ask but please see bullet point #3.... interfaces all sound a little different. 

 

I don't know what interface you used to record those first two clips... but they do sound pretty hollow/empty. 

 

3 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

...cos for the most part either a) people are happy to settle for a crappy tone or b) just got damn lucky on certain setups (or peoples ears are a touch bad / got used to the sound)

 

So if a user is using a 3rd party interface it is nothing but dumb luck or bad ears that convince them they are getting a good tone?

I suggest we get some details before leaping to that level of condescension :) 

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3 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

 

Welp you're wrong the first 50secs or so is 2 different guitars, 2 different locations, SAME patch and IR running through native, the last part of the sound is the SAME SETUP just using the HX stomp for the DI tone, nothing more.

 

So just to clarify, the HX stomp was used to create the tone which doesn't sound like arse, it was recorded in dry THEN the helix native was added.

 

In the third clip, I'm 90% sure I can hear the dry pick attack of unprocessed guitar in the background, so if it really is all DI then maybe you didn't mute the dry track... which makes me question how you've routed the audio in your DAW. Are you sure you don't have multiple tracks playing at once? (E.g. Wet DI from Stomp, dry DI from Stomp, and also wet plugin processing from Native?)

 

The first two clips and especially the second has some kind of weird crackly artifact occasionally that sounds kinda like CPU underrun but not quite. Could be your input levels too high, could be a driver problem (you are using the manufacturer's ASIO driver for the other devices, yes?)...

 

Which DAW are you using? I think sharing the DAW session is more likely to find the issue than just sharing the preset. The difference sounds like more than just levels and fizz to me, it doesn't even sound like they're using the same cab simulation. I realize you say they are, so there is some fundamental problem in the setup, somewhere.

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2 hours ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

 

Welp you're wrong the first 50secs or so is 2 different guitars, 2 different locations, SAME patch and IR running through native, the last part of the sound is the SAME SETUP just using the HX stomp for the DI tone, nothing more.

 

 

Still just sounds like either:

(a) you're pushing the signal too high on the way into Native, something that isn't really possible with Stomp (or Floor, etc), or

(b) the cab sim impulse is different

 

For what it's worth, I loaded your preset into my Helix Native and my riffs through it sound fine. No time to compare it with Floor, however.

 

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