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jorgealberto25

Why helix hardware sounds better than the plugin??

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Maybe there’s allot of questions about this but I can’t find the answers. I downloaded the demo again to to try helix native and I was not impressed with the tone. On the high gain models it was all muddy that you have to back off the gain but you lose the bite. 

 

At GC I tried the hardware version and it sounded way better no muddy. And even with the power cab also being demoed. It sounded like an amp.

yes I tried all settings in studio one 3, my lab top and Scarlett second gen. Funny thing that other plugins sound better than native and have more volume.

any reason why some computers don’t sound good with native. Some people have the same issue but no answer.

 

 should I go for the helix lt or save for the floor or if I fix the issue just purchase native?

i wanna plug and play and learn lots of songs from different genres. So recording my own music will be once and while.

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Helix LT - you will be happy :) sold my native - luv the floor

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With the same input source/dry track, Native and the hardware will sound exactly the same. The guitar inputs on the Helix hardware are optimized for electric guitars in a way that most generic audio interfaces aren't.

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1 hour ago, jorgealberto25 said:

At GC I tried the hardware version and it sounded way better no muddy. And even with the power cab also being demoed. It sounded like an amp.

yes I tried all settings in studio one 3, my lab top and Scarlett second gen. Funny thing that other plugins sound better than native and have more volume.

any reason why some computers don’t sound good with native. Some people have the same issue but no answer.


 

 

The Powercab sounded like an amp because it is an amp. You made no mention of what you were monitoring through at home when you tried the Native demo. If you were using headphones, studio monitors, or some other FRFR speaker, then comparing it to the Powercab is rather pointless... it's a different animal. The whole point of the Powercab is to provide the "amp in the room" feel that some guys can't do without.

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On your Scarlett be sure you're using the INSTRUMENT input. Hit a big chord LOUD and turn up the Input level till it flashes yellow, then back off a notch.

Unless you're using the same playback system at home as you used at GC, it will sound different, though it shouldn't sound worse than other plugins. 

Native has an Input meter. set it so that it's peaking around -20db.

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52 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

The Powercab sounded like an amp because it is an amp. You made no mention of what you were monitoring through at home when you tried the Native demo. If you were using headphones, studio monitors, or some other FRFR speaker, then comparing it to the Powercab is rather pointless... it's a different animal. The whole point of the Powercab is to provide the "amp in the room" feel that some guys can't do without.

I’m using studio one 3, a thosiba labtop with  AMD 1.90ghz. 8gb ram. Scarlett 6i6 and two jbls lsr308.

 

my only complain is that the high gain stuff specially when you palm mute it’s muddy and distorted. On the helix hardware same settings didn’t sounded like that. I bet that if I buy the hardware and connect it to my daw it won’t sound like that. There’s people here that have similar issues and there’s no answer. People are using less powerful computers and native works fine. So I don’t know wants the problem.

maybe native doesn’t like certain computers? Lol

 

the speaker was a head rush power cab 

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5 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

On your Scarlett be sure you're using the INSTRUMENT input. Hit a big chord LOUD and turn up the Input level till it flashes yellow, then back off a notch.

Unless you're using the same playback system at home as you used at GC, it will sound different, though it shouldn't sound worse than other plugins. 

Native has an Input meter. set it so that it's peaking around -20db.

Yeap i already try that. Yes it sounds bad. Revalver 4 sounds 10 times better

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21 minutes ago, jorgealberto25 said:

Yeap i already try that. Yes it sounds bad. Revalver 4 sounds 10 times better

 

I have a Scarlett 2nd gen. Using Reaper, LIVE or Cakewalk, Native sounds EXACTLY like Helix Floor. Using Helis as interface instead of Scarlett, Native sounds EXACTLY like Floor.

 

Maybe you just don't like the way Helix sounds.

 

Different strokes....

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36 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

On your Scarlett be sure you're using the INSTRUMENT input. Hit a big chord LOUD and turn up the Input level till it flashes yellow, then back off a notch.

Unless you're using the same playback system at home as you used at GC, it will sound different, though it shouldn't sound worse than other plugins. 

Native has an Input meter. set it so that it's peaking around -20db.

 

What you really want is unity gain from the interface. I'm not sure where that would be on the Scarlett, but on other interfaces it would be with the knob all the way down. Native is very sensitive to input levels, so you'd want instrument level, like you said - ideally with no gain added.

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Just now, phil_m said:

 

What you really want is unity gain from the interface. I'm not sure where that would be on the Scarlett, but on other interfaces it would be with the knob all the way down. Native is very sensitive to input levels, so you'd want instrument level, like you said - ideally with no gain added.

 

There's a significant (10db) difference between the humbuckers on my PRS and the single coils on my Strat, as registered on the Native Input meter. That's where you need to turn up the Input knob on the Scarlett. Using the Input meter on the Scarlett as I described prevents over driving the Scarlett's preamps and provides the best signal to the DAW/plugin.

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28 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

There's a significant (10db) difference between the humbuckers on my PRS and the single coils on my Strat, as registered on the Native Input meter. That's where you need to turn up the Input knob on the Scarlett. Using the Input meter on the Scarlett as I described prevents over driving the Scarlett's preamps and provides the best signal to the DAW/plugin.

 

IMO, you'd be better off compensating for the output difference from your pickups in Native itself rather than with the interface.

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1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

 

I have a Scarlett 2nd gen. Using Reaper, LIVE or Cakewalk, Native sounds EXACTLY like Helix Floor. Using Helis as interface instead of Scarlett, Native sounds EXACTLY like Floor.

 

Maybe you just don't like the way Helix sounds.

 

Different strokes....

I believe you that it sounds the same. But its weird that with other people it doesn’t. I think the software doesn’t like some computers. Just my theory lol

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15 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

IMO, you'd be better off compensating for the output difference from your pickups in Native itself rather than with the interface.

I think that hardware win here? No need for adjustments like the plugin and the interface

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35 minutes ago, jorgealberto25 said:

I think that hardware win here? No need for adjustments like the plugin and the interface

 

I think using the Helix hardware as the source of the dry track for Native is the best way to go if you want to ensure you have matching tones from the hardware and Native.

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2 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

IMO, you'd be better off compensating for the output difference from your pickups in Native itself rather than with the interface.

 

We can agree to disagree on that.

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8 hours ago, phil_m said:

With the same input source/dry track, Native and the hardware will sound exactly the same. The guitar inputs on the Helix hardware are optimized for electric guitars in a way that most generic audio interfaces aren't.

 

My Apollo Quad has two dedicated "Hi-Z" inputs specifically made for guitar and Native does not sound as good to me as Helix does. I'm sure you might not think so Phil but my ears disagree. ; )

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Just to weigh in, while I've had a Native preset behave differently than it did in the Stomp sound wise, I don't personally think the products sound different. Just that sometimes if I move a Stomp preset to Native I have to adjust it slightly to get it back to how I want it to sound, or if I move a Native preset to Stomp, same thing sometimes. Both seem capable of sounding identical with tweaking, however. 

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Its not just sound :) its feel (feedback with fingers) also - hard to explain - instantly noticed that with the floor unit - that I never felt with a plugin

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58 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

Both seem capable of sounding identical with tweaking, however. 

 

Yep I can agree to that. I can tweak my guitar and sound just like Chet Atkins too. Well, I seem "capable" of sounding identical with tweaking at times. ; )

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You cannot objectively compare Native against the hardware unit going to a powercab vs your monitoring methods. its 2 different worlds and has been debated endlessly with generally the same outcome every time. 

they are the same inherently but with different inputs / outputs, you need to adjust gain staging and learn how to use all the tools provided to get the tone you want. 

 

I don't know a lot about the JBL monitors,  but a power cab is a professional device made with intention....the price points between the two will assure that.  

You have a very large gap to overcome before you will convince yourself how good this unit really is.  Native or hardware. 

 

I don't believe helix in my mind, was a turn key device or just plug and play....this is an expansive device that is a tool and is set generally wide open and needs to be "reeled" back in to where it makes your ears happy...

 

regardless, enjoy the journey, its a good one, if you should so choose to enter that rabbit hole.....blue pill or red one...the choice is yours. 

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I wonder how many of these comparisons are being done "live"?  Let me explain:

 

Helix Native is a VST based plug-in for a DAW running on a PC/Mac.  These are using general compute x86 based CPUs.  These CPUs are not designed for DSP processing natively.  While running the plug-in live, I predict that helix Native is giving an approximation of what it should sound like after it's rendered.  

 

Helix Floor/LT/Stomp/etc... are all running a custom Helix Core OS on an embedded (most likely ARM based) CPU and separate DSP Processors that work in real time.  
 

I wonder if you record a track from a Helix hardware unit with both the processed track and the dry track from the Helix, and run Helix Native on the dry track (reamping) and RENDER the file, if you could tell a difference?  

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23 minutes ago, robertgoddard said:

Helix Native is a VST based plug-in for a DAW running on a PC/Mac.  These are using general compute x86 based CPUs.  These CPUs are not designed for DSP processing natively.  While running the plug-in live, I predict that helix Native is giving an approximation of what it should sound like after it's rendered.  

 

I'm sure that's not the case... If you enable monitoring through your DAW, you're hearing the audio being processed in real-time (real-time including whatever latency there is, of course). That's the case for all VSTs, really.

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1 hour ago, robertgoddard said:

 

I wonder if you record a track from a Helix hardware unit with both the processed track and the dry track from the Helix, and run Helix Native on the dry track (reamping) and RENDER the file, if you could tell a difference?  

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "render" and why that makes a difference?

I have recorded wet/dry with Helix and re-amped the dry track with Native. I can't tell the difference. YMMV.

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lol stupid me I lowered the input knob on the Scarlett all the way to zero and that kinda work.

So yes the head rush power cab is making the hardware sound I guess a little better now that I made that adjustment

 

can’t wait to try some IRs. any good free ones or the ones available for purchase are better?

 

thinking about it, I don’t play live or in a cover band so for me the hardware will be expensive. Maybe the hx stomp to make it easier and also well I don’t have buy the plugin for $400! 

 

Also ill go for a tube amp it inspires me to play. I don’t know maybe it’s just me but the first time I played one there was this feeling that with the modelers I can’t get.

 

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1 hour ago, jorgealberto25 said:

can’t wait to try some IRs. any good free ones or the ones available for purchase are better?

 

 

1 hour ago, jorgealberto25 said:

Also ill go for a tube amp it inspires me to play. I don’t know maybe it’s just me but the first time I played one there was this feeling that with the modelers I can’t get.

 

That's because you are used to the amp in the room sound....speakers moving air.....that unmistakable thump when you lay into a chord.  A modeler is more like a miced amp, in the studio, in another room, monitored in the control room.....i.e. It's that guitar sound you hear on your favorite album.

 

With a modeler, you're not just dialing the amp, but you are also dialing in EQ and (sometimes) compression.  You're not just a guitarist anymore.  You've also become the sound engineer.  At least that's the way I approach it when building my patches.  If you don't know a lot about EQ and compression, be prepared for a learning curve.  It's not that hard to get a great sound out of a modeler if you know what you're doing.

 

Last piece of advice.  Factory presets suck.  You can somewhat use them as a "how-to" guide.  But you will have the most success if you build your own from scratch.  

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On 8/29/2019 at 8:46 PM, lungho said:

 

 

 

That's because you are used to the amp in the room sound....speakers moving air.....that unmistakable thump when you lay into a chord.  A modeler is more like a miced amp, in the studio, in another room, monitored in the control room.....i.e. It's that guitar sound you hear on your favorite album.

 

With a modeler, you're not just dialing the amp, but you are also dialing in EQ and (sometimes) compression.  You're not just a guitarist anymore.  You've also become the sound engineer.  At least that's the way I approach it when building my patches.  If you don't know a lot about EQ and compression, be prepared for a learning curve.  It's not that hard to get a great sound out of a modeler if you know what you're doing.

 

Last piece of advice.  Factory presets suck.  You can somewhat use them as a "how-to" guide.  But you will have the most success if you build your own from scratch.  

Yes I understand. But it’s not because I’m use to it. I been playing with real amps at some local stores for the past few weeks and there’s this feel that modelers don’t have.

 

maybe if I was touring and playing live I will definitely buy a Helix floor. But I’m just at home learning. so plugins will work for recording and the real amp that I will purchase will be for practicing. 

 

Anyone here doesn’t play live and uses the helix hardware at home? What are the benefits?

 

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The sound quality Helix Native is subject to the quality of your audio interface's A/D converter.

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3 hours ago, hideout said:

The sound quality Helix Native is subject to the quality of your audio interface's A/D converter.

 

Every time and twice on Sunday. 

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