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Amp models into an amp


Rob-Thunder
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Hi. I am thinking of buying a HX Stomp. I understand that it includes amp models, and therefore should be plugged into a PA and NOT a guitar amp (unless using the effects pedals only).

 

However, until I hear it, and hear it sound bad, I am not convinced by this.

 

First, in this video, Tim Pierce plays his Stomp (with amp models) into his amp. (see 1 minute in -

 

Second, many pedal makers create "amps in a box" type pedals, to try to sound like a Plexi (or whatever). And these are all played into standard guitar amps. Of course, the amp you play it into will colour the tone somewhat, and the pedal will sound a bit different with different amps. Nevertheless, if you play a plexi-style pedal into a clean (and relatively neutral sounding amp) you would expect to get a plexi sound (more or less).

 

So, among other things, I like the idea of using the HX stomp into an amp, and using the amp models to get a kind of "amp in a pedal" kind of effect.

 

Has anyone tried this? Am I missing anything?

 

(Background: yes, I am aware of the HX effects, and aware that most people would say that, if you want to play into an amp you want the HX effects, not the HX stomp. However, I am leaning towards the HX stomp for a couple of reasons: 1) I think I would plug directly into a PA occasionally, so would like that option. 2) As noted above, I like the idea of trying the amp models even if playing into an amp. 3) I like the smaller size.)

 

 

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What matters is what it sounds like to you. There's no right or wrong. Given your skepticism about opinions you're reading I think the best way for you to decide is to buy the HX Stomp, test things out for yourself, and return it if you don't like it.

 

What you'll get in response here will likely fall into two camps: It's not OK to run through a standard amp (the majority), and it is OK to do so (a minority). From what you've said you're going to disagree with the former and agree with the latter - but you won't have any personal experience to base your decision on. So get your experience.

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1 hour ago, silverhead said:

What matters is what it sounds like to you. There's no right or wrong. Given your skepticism about opinions you're reading I think the best way for you to decide is to buy the HX Stomp, test things out for yourself, and return it if you don't like it.

 

What you'll get in response here will likely fall into two camps: It's not OK to run through a standard amp (the majority), and it is OK to do so (a minority). From what you've said you're going to disagree with the former and agree with the latter - but you won't have any personal experience to base your decision on. So get your experience.

 

What silverhead said. I mostly use 4cm to switch between my tube amp's preamp and either a Helix full amp or a Helix preamp, depending on what sound I'm after. Sometimes I'll use a Helix preamp into my tube amp's preamp like an AIAB pedal. I have a whole set of Helix to FRFR presets that use the full Helix signal chain for when I can't use my tube amp.

 

IOW - when it comes to what sounds good with Helix, don't believe everything you read!

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Just more re-enforcement of what's already being said.  You're not going to break anything by putting an amp model into an amp and if you like the way it sounds then that's all you need to worry about.  I have the Helix LT and run in 4CM.  Some patches I use my DSL and the Helix for effects only.  Other patches I use preamp models in the Helix and the route the signal into the DSL effects return (bypassing the DSL preamp) so my amp is functioning solely as a power amp at that point.

 

There's so much you can do with this you should at least try it out.

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Buy, experiment, and use whatever you want to use! There is no right or wrong way to do any of this. 

 

FWIW... I'm a die hard "direct to FOH/Monitors/FRFR" guy because that suits me best. But I also realize that many people do not like hearing themselves like that and prefer an amp... who am I to tell them they are wrong. If anyone is getting a good tone (or even a creative tone), I don't care how they are doing it :)

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as a general rule, you don't want to run the cab models into a real amp and cab (I've tested that and can tell you that it sounds like crap) but running the amp blocks themselves (or preamp blocks) into an amp can actually get you some pretty cool sounds.   The preamp blocks are kind of meant to be used as "amp in a box" type options.  

 

You won't break anything by trying it out though, so go for it.

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Plenty of flexibility with the stomp.   You can put a full amp in the chain and run it into a guitar amp, but it is probably going to not sounds like what you are expecting.  As folks above had said, you might or not like the sounds.

 

Some great options are:

 

- Put a preamp model in the chain, and send the output to the effects return on your amp and get a lot of great sounding combinations.

- Use the stomp as an effects only box with no modeling right into your amp

- split the chain and send a full amp/cab/ir model to front of house, and just the effects to your amp on the backline.

- Use the stomp as an amp in a box pedal for your pedalboard.  Bonus, you get some great effects in your chain also!

 

For the money, you get great flexibility, fantastic amp models and effects.

 

 

 

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Thanks for the replies. However, I think some of you have over-estimated my scepticism, or the extent to which I have already made up my mind.

 

For example, Silverhead suggested "From what you've said you're going to disagree with the former and agree with the latter". But I don't think this is right. I will disagree with - or dismiss - anyone who simply tells me that the amp models will sound bad going into an amp purely on the basis of the fact that they are designed to go direct into a PA. However, if someone came on and said, "I wanted to plexi amp in a box, so I tried a plexi amp model into my Fender amp - but it didn't sound like a plexi, it sounded weird", I would not disagree with that. Indeed, I would give such a comment considerable weight. Indeed, if a number of people came along and said similar things, I would start to think, okay maybe my idea isn't going to work, and I may consider whether the HX Effects might be a better choice.

 

As such, I would emphasise that I am indeed keen to hear people's views, based on their experience, if anyone has tried similar things.

 

(Similarly, if someone with technical knowledge came along and explained why the amp models in the Stomp would be very different from an amp in the box pedal, then I would also give that considerable weight, and take those comments seriously.)

 

For those who suggested I buy it, and experiment, and make up my own mind, I am happy to experiment, and would ultimately make up my own mind. However, if I have good reason to suspect it may not work, then I'd seriously consider the HX Effects instead. I appreciate that I should be able to return the item if it isn't what I am after, but I would like to avoid that. To some extent it is an inconvenience, and given that I will be opening the product, and using it, I would essentially be returning the item used. Even if the shop is willing to offer returns in such circumstances, I don't really want to buy it unless I am reasonably confident that I will want to keep it. 

 

Anyway, any comments based on experience would be appreciated - even if not supporting the answer I would like.

 

 

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3 hours ago, caledoneus said:

as a general rule, you don't want to run the cab models into a real amp and cab (I've tested that and can tell you that it sounds like crap) but running the amp blocks themselves (or preamp blocks) into an amp can actually get you some pretty cool sounds.   The preamp blocks are kind of meant to be used as "amp in a box" type options.  

 

 

Thanks - that's useful. Hadn't really thought about the pre-amps. I assume the pre-amps are also not included in the HX Effects. Is that right. Thanks.

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5 hours ago, caledoneus said:

The preamp blocks are kind of meant to be used as "amp in a box" type options.  

 

1 hour ago, Rob-Thunder said:

Hadn't really thought about the pre-amps.

 

For the most part this is a great "rule of thumb"... but there are amps in which the power amp is a big part of the tone. One example here would be an AC30.... getting that power amp ticking without any negative feedback is a magical part of the sound. In that instance... you "might be" better off using the full amp model (without cabinet) as the "amp in a box". 

 

My point here is... there are no rules, just starting points. You would have to try the combinations yourself to really know what works "for you" or not. 

 

5 hours ago, caledoneus said:

as a general rule, you don't want to run the cab models into a real amp and cab (I've tested that and can tell you that it sounds like crap)

 

This is an important "general rule".... it ties in with the quotes from the OP below, and what is really happening in that video. 

 

7 hours ago, Rob-Thunder said:

First, in this video, Tim Pierce plays his Stomp (with amp models) into his amp. (see 1 minute in ....

 

Go listen to the dialog between 1:00 and 1:40 again....

  • Tim first says "the sounds that are suppose to go direct sound great through my Park amp... breaking the rules"...
  • But that is followed up by his assistant telling him it is just a "pre-amp model"....

Read that a few times and go listen to it a few times... it's a contradiction! 

 

7 hours ago, Rob-Thunder said:

.... Second, many pedal makers create "amps in a box" type pedals, to try to sound like a Plexi (or whatever).

 

Exactly! Tim is NOT using a preset that was "meant to go direct"... his assistant confirms it is actually setup as an "amp in the box". 

Therefore... Tim is not really "breaking any rules" as he suggests

 

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56 minutes ago, Rob-Thunder said:

Thanks codamedia. That is really helpful. Guess I should watch that video again. Thanks.

 

I didn't catch the contradiction when I first watched the video...  that's why I thought I would point it out. 

Overall that video is great... that's why I watched it a few times. Tim's a great player with an open mind when it comes to gear... it's nice to hear his thoughts on these types of things. 

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9 hours ago, Rob-Thunder said:

Hi. I am thinking of buying a HX Stomp. I understand that it includes amp models, and therefore should be plugged into a PA and NOT a guitar amp (unless using the effects pedals only).

 

However, until I hear it, and hear it sound bad, I am not convinced by this.

 

First, in this video, Tim Pierce plays his Stomp (with amp models) into his amp. (see 1 minute in -

 

Second, many pedal makers create "amps in a box" type pedals, to try to sound like a Plexi (or whatever). And these are all played into standard guitar amps. Of course, the amp you play it into will colour the tone somewhat, and the pedal will sound a bit different with different amps. Nevertheless, if you play a plexi-style pedal into a clean (and relatively neutral sounding amp) you would expect to get a plexi sound (more or less).

 

So, among other things, I like the idea of using the HX stomp into an amp, and using the amp models to get a kind of "amp in a pedal" kind of effect.

 

Has anyone tried this? Am I missing anything?

 

(Background: yes, I am aware of the HX effects, and aware that most people would say that, if you want to play into an amp you want the HX effects, not the HX stomp. However, I am leaning towards the HX stomp for a couple of reasons: 1) I think I would plug directly into a PA occasionally, so would like that option. 2) As noted above, I like the idea of trying the amp models even if playing into an amp. 3) I like the smaller size.)

 

 

 

I do this All. Day. Long.  To be fair, my amp, a Fender Hot Rod Deville, is a pretty bland amp on its own, but it has a good amount of clean headroom, so your results will vary most definitely if you are sending the full amp model into, another amp like say, a Marshall.  Even on a "clean" setting, Marshalls tend to overdrive easier than other amps, and are so focused on certain frequencies, that they will probably exhibit a ton of coloration.  As others said, though, you have literally nothing to lose by trying it.  Even using cab models aren't necessarily a no-no, as they can be used as filters to get specific frequency shapes. What amp are you thinking of plugging this into?

 

If you like what you hear, and you have the money, you might even want to try a full Helix. IMO, it goes very far towards completely replacing a pedalboard.  The King of Tone model alone feels like it can do the job of a fair number of overdrive/boost/distortion models.  And that's just 1 of many pieces of gear this can emulate, chained together.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, JimGordon said:

 

I do this All. Day. Long.  

 

What amp are you thinking of plugging this into?

 

 

 

Thanks. That sounds promising. I have a Vox AV30 - which, if you don't know it, is a kind of hybrid tube amp (https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/vox-av30). And the first of its two clean channels is a fairly "bland" (not necessarily in a bad way) Fender-style amp, so that would be the channel I'd use. So this sounds promising.

 

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Rob-Thunder said:

 

Thanks. That sounds promising. I have a Vox AV30 - which, if you don't know it, is a kind of hybrid tube amp (https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/vox-av30). And the first of its two clean channels is a fairly "bland" (not necessarily in a bad way) Fender-style amp, so that would be the channel I'd use. So this sounds promising.

 

 

 

 

 

So 2 of the bigger factors that might make it unpredictable are: a. the power amp section appears to be some type of modeling- I'm not sure how well running 1 modeler into another modeler by a completely different manufacturer will sound (but it does look like there's a couple of controls to adjust the power amp section), and b. the amp has only 1 speaker in it, which might limit some of the tonal capabilities.  That said, if you buy the Helix at a place with a decent return policy, you can see if you like it through your amp.

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