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fenderbenderlax

Helix two amp routing scenario

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Hi Guys,

 

I'm trying to get a stereo setup going using my tube amp and the inbuilt amp sim with IR. My tube amp is set up using the 4CM method through FX Loop 1. The routing is as follows 

 

Main Path:    Guitar In --> OD -->  Split Y -->   FX Loop 1(mono).  -->    Merge (A panned Hard Left, B panned Hard Right)   --> Stereo Delay --> 1/4 inch out

Parallel Path:                                                      Amp Block --> IR    

 

My outputs from the 1/4 outs are routed as follows. The left/mono goes into the return of my amp and the right output goes into a powered frfr. 

 

However, the problem is that the stereo ping pong that I used did not bounce around as one would expect. Second, the sound from my amp is now heavily colored due to the mix of the signals from the amp sim as well I guess. Specifically, when I disable the amp block and IR, I get the sound of my amp. When I enable the amp block and IR, the sound is kind of terrible. 

 

I'm pretty sure that I'm doing something wrong here. Any help? Is this set up even feasible? the best results I had was when I split them into two separate paths with one path going out through the 1/4 inch and the other path through XLR. This worked great but I was not sure how to get the stereo delays and reverbs into play. 

 

Thanks in advance!!!

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1 hour ago, fenderbenderlax said:

Main Path:    Guitar In --> OD -->  Split Y -->   FX Loop 1(mono).  -->    Merge (A panned Hard Left, B panned Hard Right)   --> Stereo Delay --> 1/4 inch out

Parallel Path:                                                      Amp Block --> IR    

 

The problem is that the Stereo delay is only stereo OUT, NOT stereo IN. It's receiving a combination of left and right (1A+1B), and although the Ping goes Left and the Pong goes right, they both contain the same combined signal. I played around with it for a while, but other than putting the delay before the split, which doesn't sound all that good, I couldn't come up with a workaround. But it's an interesting problem, so I'll try again later. Meantime, maybe someone else will chime in with a solution?

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59 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

The problem is that the Stereo delay is only stereo OUT, NOT stereo IN. It's receiving a combination of left and right (1A+1B), and although the Ping goes Left and the Pong goes right, they both contain the same combined signal. I played around with it for a while, but other than putting the delay before the split, which doesn't sound all that good, I couldn't come up with a workaround. But it's an interesting problem, so I'll try again later. Meantime, maybe someone else will chime in with a solution?

 

Interesting point...what I'm wondering about also is why I'm hearing the modeled amp block in my tube cabinet as well...the idea was that the amp goes into its dedicated cab and the modeled amp goes into the FRFR...but that does not seem to work with the split the way its set up...note that the 1/4 inch output is still pan center...I wonder if I need to do something there///

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3 minutes ago, fenderbenderlax said:

 

Interesting point...what I'm wondering about also is why I'm hearing the modeled amp block in my tube cabinet as well...the idea was that the amp goes into its dedicated cab and the modeled amp goes into the FRFR...but that does not seem to work with the split the way its set up...note that the 1/4 inch output is still pan center...I wonder if I need to do something there///

 

That's what I'm saying... the stereo delay is AFTER the merge. The panned left/right signals are combined at the delay's input, then split into stereo at the delay's output, which means that both of the delay's output signals contain the modeled amp. Even if you route 1A to 2A and split it into two 1/4" out signals, one panned Left and one Right you'll still get the modeled amp in both because the tube amp pre and the modeled amp were combined at the delay's input.

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1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

 

That's what I'm saying... the stereo delay is AFTER the merge. The panned left/right signals are combined at the delay's input, then split into stereo at the delay's output, which means that both of the delay's output signals contain the modeled amp. Even if you route 1A to 2A and split it into two 1/4" out signals, one panned Left and one Right you'll still get the modeled amp in both because the tube amp pre and the modeled amp were combined at the delay's input.

great point!!! I guess this is a tough one :-)

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Ya gotta ask yourself "Why do I need an amp on the FRFR side?".

If the idea is just to get a bigger sound, or to try and match the tone of the side with full tube amp, try something like the attached example preset.

 

The FRFR side (right) has a Tilt EQ (FS10) and a Cab (FS11). You can use EXP2 to vary the Tilt from Dark to Bright. You can try any combination of EQ's and/or Cabs/Mics till you find something you like. The Preset has a 4x12 GB25 cab with a 4038 mic, which is very dark, and seems to work well with my FRFR112.

 

The problem with having an amp on the FRFR side was, to me, it sounded awful behind the delay. Using EQ and/or cabs it sounds much better. I also threw in a stereo phaser. I think it sounds cool!

 

 

Ping Pong.hlx

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Thanks a ton for spending time on this rd2k..yes this approach worked perfectly for me and the patch sounds great...the idea that I wanted to implement though was in a two amp scenario....one approach that I took was to have two separate paths for the two amps and having two different delays (1/4 note on one side and dotted 8th on the other)...seems to replicate the ping pong to some extent...

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You mean two HELIX amps to two EXTERNAL amps. The devil is in the details.

Yes, for that you'll either need to do it with two delays or with the single stereo delay before the split to the amps, which might be doable with more tuning - after all, it's the way it's done ITRW with an amp without FX loop.

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27 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

You mean two HELIX amps to two EXTERNAL amps. The devil is in the details.

Yes, for that you'll either need to do it with two delays or with the single stereo delay before the split to the amps, which might be doable with more tuning - after all, it's the way it's done ITRW with an amp without FX loop.

 

Good point...I guess it could be any combination right? Even If I were to use two different modeled amps within the helix, I think putting he stereo delay after the split does seem to work in separating out the signals...I guess if we use clean channels and use pedals to drive the amp then you are right maybe that will work...I will give that a shot and see how it sounds...interesting problem though :-)..thanks again for your assistance..

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