Levels for EVH 5150 III 4 cable method?

[ledvedder5150]

I am so completely confused about how to set up the levels for 4cm to my EVH 5150 III. I'm begging someone to please help me! I've read so many conflicting things. Line level, instrument level, -12dB, -1.5dB?  Set the Helix volume to control the 1/4" outs or not? With the 1/4" outs all set to instrument, and FX Loop block set to 0.0 dB, everything seems ok using the amp's preamp. But, if I bypass the FX Loop block and enable a Helix amp (no cab), the volume is deafening. Everyone talks about how easy this should be, but I'm not having that experience. Please help? 

[rd2rk]

1 hour ago, ledvedder5150 said:

I am so completely confused about how to set up the levels for 4cm to my EVH 5150 III. I'm begging someone to please help me! I've read so many conflicting things. Line level, instrument level, -12dB, -1.5dB?  Set the Helix volume to control the 1/4" outs or not? With the 1/4" outs all set to instrument, and FX Loop block set to 0.0 dB, everything seems ok using the amp's preamp. But, if I bypass the FX Loop block and enable a Helix amp (no cab), the volume is deafening. Everyone talks about how easy this should be, but I'm not having that experience. Please help? 

 

Since the manual doesn't specify the 5150III's FX Loop Level, I'm going to assume that, like most other amp's that DON'T have a selector switch for the FX Loop, it's intended to be used with normal stomp boxes (NOT rack equipment). Set your Sends to INSTRUMENT.

 

Attached is a sample preset demonstrating how to level the difference between an FX Loop with physical amp and bypassing the FX Loop for use with a Helix Amp.

The footswitch, when lit, turns ON the FX Loop, turns OFF the Helix Amp, and sets the Output Block Level to 0.0. This is the default, as saved.

 

When the footswitch is turned OFF (not lit), the FX Loop is turned OFF, the Helix Amp is turned ON, and the Output Block Level is set to -5.0.

 

This works perfectly for the amp I used in the example, the German Mahadeva (Bogner Shiva). If you use a different amp that's LOUDER, reduce the MIN setting (level when switch is OFF) for the Output Level assignment (ie: from -5.0 to -10.0). If it's not loud enough, increase that setting (ie: from -5.0 to +5.0).

 

You can also view the way I set it up as a "ballpark" and use the Channel Volume on the Helix Amp. The disadvantage to this is that changes in the Amp Channel Volume can affect downstream effects, IOW, messes with the preset's gain staging.

 

I always use the BIG KNOB to adjust the level sent to the physical amp (1/4" Outs), to save me running back and forth to the amp. I usually set it between Noon and 2 oclock., then set the Master on the physical amp for 1st set starting level.

FX Loop&AmpLvl.hlx

[ledvedder5150]

9 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

Since the manual doesn't specify the 5150III's FX Loop Level, I'm going to assume that, like most other amp's that DON'T have a selector switch for the FX Loop, it's intended to be used with normal stomp boxes (NOT rack equipment). Set your Sends to INSTRUMENT.

 

Attached is a sample preset demonstrating how to level the difference between an FX Loop with physical amp and bypassing the FX Loop for use with a Helix Amp.

The footswitch, when lit, turns ON the FX Loop, turns OFF the Helix Amp, and sets the Output Block Level to 0.0. This is the default, as saved.

 

When the footswitch is turned OFF (not lit), the FX Loop is turned OFF, the Helix Amp is turned ON, and the Output Block Level is set to -5.0.

 

This works perfectly for the amp I used in the example, the German Mahadeva (Bogner Shiva). If you use a different amp that's LOUDER, reduce the MIN setting (level when switch is OFF) for the Output Level assignment (ie: from -5.0 to -10.0). If it's not loud enough, increase that setting (ie: from -5.0 to +5.0).

 

You can also view the way I set it up as a "ballpark" and use the Channel Volume on the Helix Amp. The disadvantage to this is that changes in the Amp Channel Volume can affect downstream effects, IOW, messes with the preset's gain staging.

 

I always use the BIG KNOB to adjust the level sent to the physical amp (1/4" Outs), to save me running back and forth to the amp. I usually set it between Noon and 2 oclock., then set the Master on the physical amp for 1st set starting level.

FX Loop&AmpLvl.hlx

I'm getting conflicting information about the 5150 effects loop level. Some people are saying instrument, other are saying line. Thank you! I will give this a try tomorrow. 

[rd2rk]

7 minutes ago, ledvedder5150 said:

I'm getting conflicting information about the 5150 effects loop level. Some people are saying instrument, other are saying line. Thank you! I will give this a try tomorrow. 

 

Most people don't even use the effects loop, preferring to have all their effects into the front of the amp with one cable, vs the three required for 4cm.

This is based on the many rig rundowns I've seen on Premier Guitar.

Most of those who do use the effects loop put a delay and/or reverb stompbox on top of the amp, again, reducing cable clutter on stage.

This is based on personal observation.

A very few higher end players still have racks. Expensive, heavy, more stuff to carry. That's why most amps don't bother with a selector. Also, don't know if it's true for all, but some rack units have a selector built in.

Cool cats like us who have modelers know how to use cable ties to turn 3 cables into one! :-)

[ledvedder5150]

11 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

Most people don't even use the effects loop, preferring to have all their effects into the front of the amp with one cable, vs the three required for 4cm.

This is based on the many rig rundowns I've seen on Premier Guitar.

Most of those who do use the effects loop put a delay and/or reverb stompbox on top of the amp, again, reducing cable clutter on stage.

This is based on personal observation.

A very few higher end players still have racks. Expensive, heavy, more stuff to carry. That's why most amps don't bother with a selector. Also, don't know if it's true for all, but some rack units have a selector built in.

Cool cats like us who have modelers know how to use cable ties to turn 3 cables into one! :-)

Yep, my Pedal Python has done wonders for my cabling. 

[ledvedder5150]

On 11/12/2019 at 9:53 PM, rd2rk said:

 

Since the manual doesn't specify the 5150III's FX Loop Level, I'm going to assume that, like most other amp's that DON'T have a selector switch for the FX Loop, it's intended to be used with normal stomp boxes (NOT rack equipment). Set your Sends to INSTRUMENT.

 

Attached is a sample preset demonstrating how to level the difference between an FX Loop with physical amp and bypassing the FX Loop for use with a Helix Amp.

The footswitch, when lit, turns ON the FX Loop, turns OFF the Helix Amp, and sets the Output Block Level to 0.0. This is the default, as saved.

 

When the footswitch is turned OFF (not lit), the FX Loop is turned OFF, the Helix Amp is turned ON, and the Output Block Level is set to -5.0.

 

This works perfectly for the amp I used in the example, the German Mahadeva (Bogner Shiva). If you use a different amp that's LOUDER, reduce the MIN setting (level when switch is OFF) for the Output Level assignment (ie: from -5.0 to -10.0). If it's not loud enough, increase that setting (ie: from -5.0 to +5.0).

 

You can also view the way I set it up as a "ballpark" and use the Channel Volume on the Helix Amp. The disadvantage to this is that changes in the Amp Channel Volume can affect downstream effects, IOW, messes with the preset's gain staging.

 

I always use the BIG KNOB to adjust the level sent to the physical amp (1/4" Outs), to save me running back and forth to the amp. I usually set it between Noon and 2 oclock., then set the Master on the physical amp for 1st set starting level.

FX Loop&AmpLvl.hlx

OK, I've tried this. Again, thanks for your help. I had to set the output block alot lower than - 5dB.  What's weird is that sometimes when switching back and forth with the footswitch, the output block level doesn't change correctly. And other times, it does. I guess when you use this method, you have to adjust the output block level whenever you turn the actual amp volume up or down, since the volume of the Helix amps isn't affected by the actual amp's volume controls? 

[rd2rk]

38 minutes ago, ledvedder5150 said:

OK, I've tried this. Again, thanks for your help. I had to set the output block alot lower than - 5dB.  What's weird is that sometimes when switching back and forth with the footswitch, the output block level doesn't change correctly. And other times, it does. I guess when you use this method, you have to adjust the output block level whenever you turn the actual amp volume up or down, since the volume of the Helix amps isn't affected by the actual amp's volume controls? 

 

I assume that when you say the output block level doesn't change correctly, you mean relative to changing physical amp levels.

Yes, Helix provides the tools to get it done, but it's sensors aren't powerful enough to detect changes to the physical world around it and adjust itself accordingly.

Maybe Helix III will be equipped with better sensors and Qbit logic circuits.......Meanwhile, my tube amp is starting to look more and more like it's about to morph into a Powercab. 

[ledvedder5150]

No, I mean that I set the output level to -10dB or whatever level when the Helix amp is on, and set the level to 0 when the FX Loop block is on and the Helix amp is off. Then I save the patch. Then when I switch back and forth with the footswitch, the levels don't always change back and forth. 

[rd2rk]

4 hours ago, ledvedder5150 said:

No, I mean that I set the output level to -10dB or whatever level when the Helix amp is on, and set the level to 0 when the FX Loop block is on and the Helix amp is off. Then I save the patch. Then when I switch back and forth with the footswitch, the levels don't always change back and forth. 

 

Attach the preset and I'll look at it.