7 Cabel Method

[Wondo100]

Ok. So, I have had the Helix for a couple of months now and have been able to successfully hook up two H&K Grandmeisters to the Helix with 7CM. I have a few qestions. 

 

How can I stop bleed over to one of the Effects loop as a preamp when it is turned off? 

How can I set up the volume properly? When I turn the master volume of the Helix it gets really loud into the amp which overrides what the normal volume of the amp would be. (There is no Loop input control on the Grandmeisters, just simple series loops). 

Should I set up all inputs and outputs as instrument? Where do I find that?

If I want my two amps to go back and forth with delay repeats, how do I do this with 7CM?

 

Have not even begun to dig into how to get the channel changes with MIDI yet and how to do control commands for the amp. 

 

Thanks. 

[rd2rk]

1 hour ago, Wondo100 said:

How can I stop bleed over to one of the Effects loop as a preamp when it is turned off? 

 

HUH?

 

1 hour ago, Wondo100 said:

Should I set up all inputs and outputs as instrument? Where do I find that?

 

Set the Send Level to INSTRUMENT. In Global Settings > Ins/Outs

 

1 hour ago, Wondo100 said:

How can I set up the volume properly? When I turn the master volume of the Helix it gets really loud into the amp which overrides what the normal volume of the amp would be. (There is no Loop input control on the Grandmeisters, just simple series loops). 

 

Doesn't the Master Volume on the GM40 control the amp's output volume? Set the BIG KNOB to UNITY (max the knob or in Global Settings set it to control something other than the 1/4" out) then use the Master Volumes on the GM40's to control final output. OR set the GM40's Masters really high and use the BIG KNOB to set the final output (preferred method).

 

1 hour ago, Wondo100 said:

Have not even begun to dig into how to get the channel changes with MIDI yet and how to do control commands for the amp. 

 

When you're ready let me know and I'll link you to the threads where I've explained it.

 

 

[bassbene]

1 hour ago, Wondo100 said:

When I turn the master volume of the Helix it gets really loud into the amp which overrides what the normal volume of the amp would be.

You can select which outputs are effected by the helix volume knob in the General Settings. 

 

1 hour ago, Wondo100 said:

Should I set up all inputs and outputs as instrument? Where do I find that?

Depends on the inputs ;) I get lost thinking of 7CM. So general rule of thumb: If you feed into an amp input, select "instrument" level. If you feed an effect loop, select "line". You find these settings in the General Settings -> In/Outputs.

[rd2rk]

12 minutes ago, bassbene said:

If you feed into an amp input, select "instrument" level. If you feed an effect loop, select "line"

 

That's only true if the FX loop on the amp either has an input level switch or is set up to use rack FX. IME most modern amps without input level switches on the fx loop are intended to be used with instrument level stompboxes.

[brue58ski]

3 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

That's only true if the FX loop on the amp either has an input level switch or is set up to use rack FX. IME most modern amps without input level switches on the fx loop are intended to be used with instrument level stompboxes.

 

I've actually heard the opposite the logic being you would put stomp boxes between the guitar and amp (instrument level) and use  rack mounted effects (line level)  in your effects loop. Having said that, there is no real standard as far as I can tell. Gotta read your amp manual. I know Line 6's Vetta loops were line level. Doesn't mean anything in regard to other amps.

[rd2rk]

13 minutes ago, brue58ski said:

 

I've actually heard the opposite the logic being you would put stomp boxes between the guitar and amp (instrument level) and use  rack mounted effects (line level)  in your effects loop. Having said that, there is no real standard as far as I can tell. Gotta read your amp manual. I know Line 6's Vetta loops were line level. Doesn't mean anything in regard to other amps.

 

Older amps, Line level was often the default. Back then, guitarists used racks for things like delays and reverbs, which did double duty in studios where line level was the rule. These days, with the improvements to stompbox style delays and reverbs, more people use them in the loop, too. Often, sitting on top of their amps to avoid cable clutter on stage.

Besides, who wants to carry around a big heavy rack? :-)

Thing is, modern FX loops are not likely to be overdriven by a mismatch, so unless there are volume issues (like in OP's case), it's NBD.

 

[Wondo100]

Thanks guys. I get overwhelmed by the Helix at times and have read where many people abandoned ship to go with traditional set ups again, but in order for me to run both amps in stereo, I can see something like the Helix being the way to go, so I am going to stick it out. Therefore, glad I can ask questions here and get answers. 

 

As far as the bleed from one fx loop to another. I have a 7 CM template chosen. One fx loop goes to one Grandmeister and the other fx loop goes to the other. If I turn off the one loop and keep the other one on, you can hear the live one bleeding over to the off one. It is the delay that I am hearing. I will check to see if I have trails on because that may be what is causing it. 

 

I am also curious about if I should run stereo effects to get true stereo with these two amps and if so, I am not sure how to do the signal path to achieve this. 

 

[brue58ski]

40 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

Older amps, Line level was often the default. Back then, guitarists used racks for things like delays and reverbs, which did double duty in studios where line level was the rule. These days, with the improvements to stompbox style delays and reverbs, more people use them in the loop, too. Often, sitting on top of their amps to avoid cable clutter on stage.

Besides, who wants to carry around a big heavy rack? :-)

Thing is, modern FX loops are not likely to be overdriven by a mismatch, so unless there are volume issues (like in OP's case), it's NBD.

 

 

I totally agree about the big heavy rack. Just what I heard. In regard to the H&K, it appears the Send and Return jacks are Line level since the nominal level (everything centered without a Boost) for them is the same as the Line Out jack and don't have anything in common with the Input (Instrument) jack. Just a slightly educated guess though on my part. I could be wrong.

 

Input jack                                                                                                                                          6.3 mm (1/4"), unbalanced, 1 MOhms
Sensitivity  (Clean, without Boost, all Pots in center position, Master in max. position)     -23 dBV
Max. Input (without Boost)                                                                                                             0 dBV

Return jack                                                                                                                                        6.3 mm (1/4"), unbalanced, 25 kOhms
Sensitivity (Clean, without Boost, all Pots in center position, Master in max. position)     -10 dBV
Max. Input                                                                                                                                        +14 dBV

Send jack                                                                                                                                         6.3 mm (1/4"), unbalanced, 220 Ohms
Nominal Level (Clean, without Boost, all Pots in center position)                                          -10 dBV

Max. Level                                                                                                                                        +10 dBV

 

Line Out jack                                                                                                                                    6.3 mm (1/4"), unbalanced, 220 Ohms
Nominal Level (Clean, without Boost, all Pots in center position)                                          -10 dBV
Max. Level                                                                                                                                        +10 dBV

[chasingMango]

2 minutes ago, Wondo100 said:

 many people abandoned ship to go with traditional set ups again

 

I think people may abandon ship for *simpler* setups, but to accomplish the same things it can do in analog would be just as complicated if not more so.  Stick it out, learning new things is part of the fun!

[Wondo100]

Found this thread on another forum. Still cannot determine if the loop on the H&K are line or instrument http://handkusers.forumotion.com/t357-helix-as-the-fx-for-a-gm40-4-cable-method

[rd2rk]

https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/whats-the-difference-between-mic-instrument-line-and-speaker-level-signals/

Differences Between Signal Levels

Mic Level

Mic level is the voltage of signal generated by a microphone. This is the lowest, or weakest, level signal of the four and requires a preamplifier to bring it up to line level.

Instrument Level

Instrument level signals fall between mic level (lower) and line level (higher) signals. These signals refer to any level put out by an instrument, commonly from an electric guitar or bass. A preamplifier is required to bring the signal up to line level.

Line Level

Line level signals are the highest level signals before amplification. This is the type of signal that typically flows through your recording system after the preamplifier stage and before the amplifier that powers your speakers. The two types of line levels are consumer and professional.

IMPORTANT: Be careful not to send a line level signal to a preamplifier expecting a mic or instrument level signal.

• Consumer line level is rated around -10dBV and is what you’ll find in products like a CD player.
• Professional line level is rated around +4 dBu and can be found in equipment like mixing desks, preamplifiers, and signal processing equipment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stomp boxes are designed to go between guitar and amp input, and are Instrument Level.

Instrument Level is lower than Line Level.

I don't know all this audio engineer speak with db's and ohms and all that stuff. Based on the specs that brue8ski posted, the GM40 FX loop should be able to handle either Instrument or Line Level.

Therefore I reason, if you're trying to keep down the level of the signal from the Helix to the FX return of the amp, use Instrument level.

 

 

[rd2rk]

2 hours ago, Wondo100 said:

Thanks guys. I get overwhelmed by the Helix at times and have read where many people abandoned ship to go with traditional set ups again, but in order for me to run both amps in stereo, I can see something like the Helix being the way to go, so I am going to stick it out. Therefore, glad I can ask questions here and get answers. 

 

As far as the bleed from one fx loop to another. I have a 7 CM template chosen. One fx loop goes to one Grandmeister and the other fx loop goes to the other. If I turn off the one loop and keep the other one on, you can hear the live one bleeding over to the off one. It is the delay that I am hearing. I will check to see if I have trails on because that may be what is causing it. 

 

I am also curious about if I should run stereo effects to get true stereo with these two amps and if so, I am not sure how to do the signal path to achieve this. 

 

 

If you turn off a loop, the loop is Bypassed, but that signal chain's output still goes to the Output Block and on to the Amp's Return so, yeah, you'll hear the signal from that chain on that amp. It's not bleed from one loop to another.

 

As far as true stereo in 7cm, like Ping Pong delay bouncing from one amp to the other, I'm not sure how you'd do that, since the stereo effect has to feed both paths concurrently.

 

I use 4cm with a tube amp. Everything after the FX Loop is stereo, and I split the Output Block in two. The split sends A hard LEFT and B hard RIGHT. The two Output Blocks are also panned hard LEFT (to the Amp Return) and the other panned hard RIGHT to an FRFR112. Pings and pongs go back and forth as expected. BUt, as noted, that won't work with separate paths.

[HonestOpinion]

On 11/13/2019 at 1:50 PM, brue58ski said:

 

I've actually heard the opposite the logic being you would put stomp boxes between the guitar and amp (instrument level) and use  rack mounted effects (line level)  in your effects loop. Having said that, there is no real standard as far as I can tell. Gotta read your amp manual. I know Line 6's Vetta loops were line level. Doesn't mean anything in regard to other amps.

 

This has always been my understanding as well.