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merdenoms74

Why do these sound different?

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Hi people,

 

I was wondering whether someone could take the time to check these two patches (just snapshot 1 of each). As far as I can tell, they should sound identical; however, 'PLEXI 1' sounds quieter and slightly darker than 'PLEXI 2'.

 

All the blocks have been copied and pasted individually from PLEXI 1 to PLEXI 2 so they are exactly the same. The routing panning and levels are the same (unless I've missed something). This is really annoying as I have 'master patches' that I copy the amp and cab blocks from into other patches for specific songs. The aim here is to get consistency between patches, but I'm finding that for some odd reason, I'm not getting that.

 

Thanks in advance.

PLEXI 1.hlx

PLEXI 2.hlx

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My perception of the presets is just as you describe.

The difference is Plexi 1 has a split A/B with an even split, while Plexi 2 has a split Y with balance A left 100, balance B right 100.

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Quite weird that the different split modes, while doing the same thing at these very settings, result in different levels.

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1 hour ago, SaschaFranck said:

Quite weird that the different split modes, while doing the same thing at these very settings, result in different levels.

 

 

It can seem that way, but after thinking about it not really. Isn't the A/B creating exact duplicate signals, while the other is hard panning them to the left and right?

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4 hours ago, Kilrahi said:

 

 

It can seem that way, but after thinking about it not really. Isn't the A/B creating exact duplicate signals, while the other is hard panning them to the left and right?

 

Well, as said, they're doing the same thing here, splitting the signal equally.

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14 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

Well, as said, they're doing the same thing here, splitting the signal equally.

 

No, they're not. The Y is creating a hard right channel and another separate hard left.

 

The other is creating two seperate paths of left AND right. They are not the same thing.

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1 hour ago, Kilrahi said:

 

No, they're not. The Y is creating a hard right channel and another separate hard left.

 

The other is creating two seperate paths of left AND right. They are not the same thing.

 

In this case, they're still doing the same thing (and yes, I'm aware of the differences) and the different volumes can't be "justified".

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17 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

In this case, they're still doing the same thing (and yes, I'm aware of the differences) and the different volumes can't be "justified".

 

 Split Y is sending 1/2 signal to each path. Split A/B is sending combined signal to each path. In no way are these "the same thing". The difference it subtle, but it is real!

 

If you don't believe me... humor me. Set the Split Y to "Left 0 / Right 0" rather than panned hard left/right. VOILA... it now sounds exactly like the Split A/B because it is doing exactly what the split A/B does! 

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1 minute ago, codamedia said:

If you don't believe me... humor me. Set the Split Y to "Left 0 / Right 0" rather than panned hard left/right. VOILA... it now sounds exactly like the Split A/B because it is doing exactly what the split A/B does! 

 

So, why would there be a difference in levels when you pan them hard? That doesn't make much sense.

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6 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

So, why would there be a difference in levels when you pan them hard? That doesn't make much sense.

 

I'm surprised this isn't making sense to you! 

  • Left/Right signal combine to make full strength
  • Left alone... is usually about 3db quieter
  • Right alone.... is usually about 3db quieter

I use the word "usually" because there could be panning laws at play... I do not know how Line 6 implements those... if at all. I have no inner knowledge of how L6 has created those splits... but normally panning laws would not be implemented for this usage. 

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Really, do the same in any DAW. Split (or duplicate) a signal. Keep both of them dead center. Listen. Then pan one hard L, the other hard R - unless you're using a pretty weird pan law compensation (and I wouldn't know of any reasons for that to make sense), the panned version never gets louder.

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On 11/24/2019 at 1:07 PM, codamedia said:

 

...

  • Left/Right signal combine to make full strength
  • Left alone... is usually about 3db quieter
  • Right alone.... is usually about 3db quieter

I use the word "usually" because there could be panning laws at play... I do not know how Line 6 implements those... if at all. I have no inner knowledge of how L6 has created those splits... but normally panning laws would not be implemented for this usage. 

 

This does appear to be associated as codamedia points out with the way the pan law is handled(or not) on the Helix. The principle in that law can result in anywhere up to about a 6db boost at center(seems like less than that on the Helix) which will need to be compensated for. The jump in volume when panned center has definitely been discussed extensively before on the forum. Haven't looked at the presets but it sure reminds me of those threads.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_law

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7 minutes ago, HonestOpinion said:

Could this have anything to do with the way the panning law(which can give anywhere up to a 6db boost,seems like less than that) is implemented(or not) on the Helix when things are set to center? Haven't looked at the presets but it sure reminds me of other threads regarding panned volume differences.

 

From all I know, panning laws (or compensations) are used to "help" with the attenuation of a signal that is panned away from center. However, regardless of how they're implemented (Logic for instance is offering 3 different modes), I have never heard of the volume being raised when you pan two centered signals hard L/R - which is what the Helix is doing here. Apart from that, as the signals are merged again later in the signal chain in this case, it shouldn't have any effect.

Fwiw, I don't think it's worth to discuss about it too much as this will hardly (if ever) get in the way of anything. Just a little strange how the panning in Split Y is implemented.

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1 hour ago, SaschaFranck said:

Fwiw, I don't think it's worth to discuss about it too much as this will hardly (if ever) get in the way of anything. Just a little strange how the panning in Split Y is implemented.

 

Hi,

 

As noted by “HonestOpinion” in the post above, this has been discussed before.

 

Example here from a year ago:

https://line6.com/support/topic/37998-levels-and-different-kinds-of-splits/

 

and even earlier - more discussion here.

 

 

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12 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

From all I know, panning laws (or compensations) are used to "help" with the attenuation of a signal that is panned away from center. However, regardless of how they're implemented (Logic for instance is offering 3 different modes), I have never heard of the volume being raised when you pan two centered signals hard L/R - which is what the Helix is doing here. Apart from that, as the signals are merged again later in the signal chain in this case, it shouldn't have any effect.

Fwiw, I don't think it's worth to discuss about it too much as this will hardly (if ever) get in the way of anything. Just a little strange how the panning in Split Y is implemented.

 

Ultimately you've got it right. It probably isn't worth obsessing about and can usually be fairly easily worked around but from what others have observed and commented on, Line6 could do a better job of compensating for the way pan law impacts volume as you move away from or towards a center detent.

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6 minutes ago, HonestOpinion said:

 

Ultimately you've got it right. It probably isn't worth obsessing about and can usually be fairly easily worked around but from what others have observed and commented on, Line6 could do a better job of compensating for the way pan law impacts volume as you move away from or towards a center detent.

 

After all, it's just levels, which can easily be adjusted at pretty much any position in the signal chain. Sure, there might be the odd chance of using a Split Y block in front of whatever dynamically processing block, but even in these cases the differences should be small enough for them to not become an issue.

I'm really quite a nitpicker on some things, but this very issue - apart from triggering a sort of "just because I can" interest - leaves me pretty cold. I also never got the fuzz back in the days when everybody was complaining about Logics pan laws (which were different from most others and offered no choice).

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