Fender Supersonic 22

[Stratojoe17]

Hallo

 

since weeks I am trying to simulate my Fender Supersonic 22 Combo with my HX Stomp using a Laney LFR 112 power cab.

I generally use the Laney built in 12 inch speaker simulation and do the rest inside the Stomp.

I tried several Fender amp simulations , EQ Settings etc. but do not seem to come close to the original Fender sound.

Any idea which chain of amps simulation would come closest to the Fender Supersonic 22 Combo ? Especially for the distorted sound ?

 

[codamedia]

Speaker choice is 50% of your tone.... The Fender uses a Eminence Design but I really don't know the specs. Even more... I don't have a clue what the Laney is emulating beyond a 112 or 412 option. My point is... if the Fender uses an Eminence and the Laney is modeling a Celestion you are off to a bad start if you want to get the tone the same.

 

You "might" have better luck if you set the Laney to FRFR and use cabinet emulation from the Stomp where you have more options. 

 

As for Amps... the Supersonic 22 is a special beast. It can cover a lot of tonal ground so it would depend on what you are doing with it. It can cover Fender/Vox/Marshall... all really well. I know you say "distorted tones" but that can also cover all the amp styles. Is there a specific sound (artist/song) that you lean toward with the Fender Supersonic. Knowing the tone you are after might assist people in helping you dial in the Stomp. 

[Stratojoe17]

Thanks for your reply. I have switched my Laney to full range flat response and used the Stomp's Cabs instead.

The difference is amazing and indeed I came much closer to the sound I want and that I am used to. 

Thanks four your help :-)

[hideout]

I do wish they’d model the Fender Excelsior along with the Supersonic 22

[Stratojoe17]

Hello again :-)

 

Since last rehearsal I am still not satisfied with my Supersonic 22 simulation. Although the EQ curve is very close to the original

(checked it doing AB comparison in Cubase), I am missing the pressure and presence from the Tube amp, especially with the distorted sounds

when playing louder. My Laney full range active speaker amp has 400 Watts which is really enough for room we are playing in.

I am missing the feel of the vibrations in the body.  I wish I could get my "simulation" setup work like the tube amp. 

 

Any idea what I could do  ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lungho]

You're looking for that "amp in the room" feel and you're not going to be able to replicate that with a modeler.  That's because a modeler simulates a miced amp that usually isolated in another room.  This is the sound you hear on all your favorite tunes.  This is the sound your audience hears live through the PA.  It takes some time to get used to....some people never get used to it and return to more traditional rig.  

 

Line 6 claims their PowerCab can replicate that "amp in the room feel" however I can't confirm or deny that seeing how I haven't plugged into one yet.

 

EDIT: I suppose another option would be to use a tube amp and use 4 cable method.  

[hideout]

1 hour ago, lungho said:

You're looking for that "amp in the room" feel and you're not going to be able to replicate that with a modeler.  That's because a modeler simulates a miced amp that usually isolated in another room.  This is the sound you hear on all your favorite tunes.  This is the sound your audience hears live through the PA.  It takes some time to get used to....some people never get used to it and return to more traditional rig.  

 

Line 6 claims their PowerCab can replicate that "amp in the room feel" however I can't confirm or deny that seeing how I haven't plugged into one yet.

 

EDIT: I suppose another option would be to use a tube amp and use 4 cable method.  

 

Indeed.  That "mic" is the disconnect between a real amp and a modeler.  Personally, because of a real amp's limitations and impracticality for most gigs, they've never satisfied me.  Until modelers came along, Id struggled trying to get the sounds i heard in my favorite recordings and songs.  Honestly, you can't really get a lot of those sounds with a real amp... not without getting fired from the gig.

[Stratojoe17]

Thanks for your answers ! 

 

If the "mic" is the disconnect between a real amp and a modeler, is there a way to switch it off  while leaving the Amp+Cab on ?

 

 

 

[hideout]

2 hours ago, Stratojoe17 said:

Thanks for your answers ! 

 

If the "mic" is the disconnect between a real amp and a modeler, is there a way to switch it off  while leaving the Amp+Cab on ?

 

 

 

Well, think about how that could possibly be done in real life. Without a mic, how would a recording system capture the sound of an amp? Without a modeled mic, what gets to determine what the speaker sounds like? As far as I know, we can’t model human hearing yet. Even if we could, whose ears would we model? Remember, everyone hears things differently so even if we modeled the hearing of an excellent audio engineer, we wouldn’t be used to that way of hearing things so we’d very likely hate The way they hear things. 

[codamedia]

3 hours ago, Stratojoe17 said:

If the "mic" is the disconnect between a real amp and a modeler, is there a way to switch it off  while leaving the Amp+Cab on ?

 

No... your only option would be to return to one of the Laney's internal speaker simulations and turn off the cab/mic model in the Helix. The Laney sim would just turn off the horn and apply a filter so not mic is in play. But - that leads you right back to the problem you have in the opening post. 

 

IMO.... There is a huge benefit to learning (and getting used to) how to setup your tones with cab/mic simulation. You will have much more control of what the FOH (and therefore the audience) is hearing, because it will be what you are hearing to.

 

23 hours ago, Stratojoe17 said:

I am missing the pressure and presence from the Tube amp, especially with the distorted sounds

when playing louder.

 

Staying in FRFR mode with the amp/cab models on the Stomp.... go to the CAB settings and look at the mic model. Changing the model and distance makes a huge difference.

 

FWIW... I tend to achieve better results with a 121 model pulled about 3" - 6" off the cabinet for most amps. This captures more cabinet tone, and puts some air between the cab and mic. Result... a warmer (amp in the room) style tone compared to having a 57 at 1". YMMV. 

[hideout]

1 hour ago, codamedia said:

FWIW... I tend to achieve better results with a 121 model pulled about 3" - 6" off the cabinet for most amps. This captures more cabinet tone, and puts some air between the cab and mic. Result... a warmer (amp in the room) style tone compared to having a 57 at 1". YMMV. 

I never use the 57. I just don’t get it.  It’s so harsh sounding to my ears. It (the real one) does in fact have a huge peak at around 5k and so does the model it would seem... ick!

[codamedia]

9 minutes ago, hideout said:

I never use the 57. I just don’t get it.  It’s so harsh sounding to my ears. It (the real one) does in fact have a huge peak at around 5k and so does the model it would seem... ick!

 

In the real world... a '57 is often "off axis" (angled) and pointed more toward the "edge" of a speaker, not into the center of the speaker like the Helix models. This changes the usefulness of the real mic... but the Helix doesn't offer those options for placement. 

 

Still not my favorite mic... but it can work. When micing a live amp ribbons and condensers are not really an option... I'll lean toward a Sennheiser... 421, 609, or 409. The Helix offerings of these are pretty good as well. 

[hideout]

34 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

In the real world... a '57 is often "off axis" (angled) and pointed more toward the "edge" of a speaker, not into the center of the speaker like the Helix models. This changes the usefulness of the real mic... but the Helix doesn't offer those options for placement. 

 

Still not my favorite mic... but it can work. When micing a live amp ribbons and condensers are not really an option... I'll lean toward a Sennheiser... 421, 609, or 409. The Helix offerings of these are pretty good as well. 

Yeah, I do wish the Helix did have some mic angle options. They’re really quite useful.  Still, with a real amp the 57 would be my last choice. 
 

O.T.  I’ve often wondered what kind of sound you’d get by epoxying a piezo transducer directly on the cone of a speaker and sending that signal to the mixer or DAW. Hmmm...

[DunedinDragon]

8 hours ago, hideout said:

Yeah, I do wish the Helix did have some mic angle options. They’re really quite useful.  Still, with a real amp the 57 would be my last choice. 
 

O.T.  I’ve often wondered what kind of sound you’d get by epoxying a piezo transducer directly on the cone of a speaker and sending that signal to the mixer or DAW. Hmmm...

 

Although I can't say I've ever done such a thing....or even considered doing it, my guess is at best it would be very similar to the sound you get from an acoustic guitar with a piezo as compared to a guitar recorded by a microphone.  One is dull, static and lifeless and one is full of ambience and character.  Guess which one is which??

[DunedinDragon]

13 hours ago, Stratojoe17 said:

Thanks for your answers ! 

 

If the "mic" is the disconnect between a real amp and a modeler, is there a way to switch it off  while leaving the Amp+Cab on ?

 

 

 

 

That would probably sound about the same as recording a voice without a mic.

The fact is, the vast majority of people that listen to music or go to concerts have never heard the "amp in the room".  They've only heard the mic'd image of the amp.  Only the person standing next to an amp while playing the guitar ever hears the amp in the room, and that sound changes drastically depending on where you're standing relative to the speaker and cabinet, just like it changes when you move the mic.  The vast majority of your audience has never heard it and probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference other than the mic'd sound is more like what they're used to hearing.

[hideout]

1 hour ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

Although I can't say I've ever done such a thing....or even considered doing it, my guess is at best it would be very similar to the sound you get from an acoustic guitar with a piezo as compared to a guitar recorded by a microphone.  One is dull, static and lifeless and one is full of ambience and character.  Guess which one is which??

You’re comparing my idea to that of the sound of the piezo under the bridge. It’s quite different when the piezo sensor is elsewhere on the body of the guitar. At very low volumes it’s actually a very nice full sound once you’ve found the spot where the piezo sounds best. But... it also makes the guitar highly susceptible to feedback so you are very much limited to very low volumes. This would not be an issue with the very high output coming from a speaker cone. I think you may even have to use a -20db pad on it to keep from slamming the mic input. 

[Stratojoe17]

I tried the different mic settings as suggested by codamedia and indeed that made a big difference (positively).

I will give it a try with the new settings at the next rehearsal. 

I need this punch (like) from a real amp when I am playing, as this affects the way I am playing (feeling & hearing the sound)

 

 

 

[ashetler1]

I would also like to put in a vote for a supersonic 22 burn channel model! I had one before I got the helix and have regretted selling it ever since. I cannot get that tone. I’m sure someone more experienced than me could but I can’t. Also kudos to line 6 for coming up with the powercab. The ability to have amp in the room and also a full on stage monitor in one package=awesome 

[lluisvallverdu]

could you please share the preset?