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Helix Stomp sounds great thru studio monitors but thin thru amp or PA speakers

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I have a Helix Stomp and it sounds great though studio monitors and headphones but kind of thin and tinny thought PA speakers or tube amp.  I tried 80 and 100 hz low cuts and high cuts at 4000 hz on the cabs.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  Sound so good through the studio monitors but not thought PA speakers. I know there is good sound out there for PA just need to get my settings rights.  

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Following. I'm using my Stomp through either my Peavey Special212 or my Laney cab and it has that tinny sound. Or kinda empty sound. Like the amp is across a room or something. 

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Your problem is mostly volume. Search for threads dealing with the Fletcher-Munson curve... this comes  up all the time, and there are a million of them.

 

It's also due to the fact that you are comparing speakers that are designed to do very different things. A tone created at comfortable volume through studio monitors will fall apart when cranked to stage volume through a completely different set of speakers. The only real solution is to dial in your sounds at or near the volume at which you intend to use them, preferably through the same speaker(s), or at least ones that are similar. Small, near-field studio monitors and a full stage PA are two very different animals.

 

Every situation and listening environment is different... there are no universal settings that anyone can throw out that'll be guaranteed to give you the results you're looking for. It's a PIA, but doing the grunt work is the only way out.

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When you dial in your tones at a quieter level... your ears play tricks on you - hence, the Fletcher-Munson curve. 

 

You will add too much low end, and too much high end... creating a "mid scoop" in the tone. 

At stage volume - that big quiet tone often turns into a "boomy" yet "tinny" mess with no clarity! 

 

18 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

Your problem is mostly volume. Search for threads dealing with the Fletcher-Munson curve..

 

+1

 

That is the problem... providing a certain threshold of quality is being met by both the studio monitors and the PA / Monitor situation. I don't waste my time adjusting for poor quality PA boxes... I'll just bring my own FRFR when those are in play because nothing will make them sound good and clear.

 

18 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

It's also due to the fact that you are comparing speakers that are designed to do very different things. A tone created at comfortable volume through studio monitors will fall apart when cranked to stage volume through a completely different set of speakers. The only real solution is to dial in your sounds at or near the volume at which you intend to use them, preferably through the same speaker(s), or at least ones that are similar. Near field studio monitors and a full stage PA are two very different animals.

 

IMO...  This is true only if the studio monitors are not capable of pushing enough air and volume to comfortably get over the Fletcher Munson curve. I find it hard (if not impossible) to setup tones on a set of 3.5" - 5" monitors... there is too much compensation involved. BUT - a decent set of 6.5" or larger is usually capable of reaching 90db (approximate stage volume for guitar) without pushing itself to hard.. 

 

 

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18 hours ago, uptheirons726 said:

Following. I'm using my Stomp through either my Peavey Special212 or my Laney cab and it has that tinny sound. Or kinda empty sound. Like the amp is across a room or something. 

 

I think you have a different problem than the OP. 

Here are a couple things to try...

  • If you are running into the front end of the Special 212, don't use any amp/cab modeling in the Stomp!
  • If you are running into the power amp input (or the effect return) of the Special 212, use the "Pre-amp models" on the stomp... no cabinet or IR models.

When you use the Laney cab, how are you powering it... or do you connect it to the Special 212? 

If it's connected to the Special, then the same bullet points apply. If you connect it differently I'd need more details before making any suggestions. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

I think you have a different problem than the OP. 

Here are a couple things to try...

  • If you are running into the front end of the Special 212, don't use any amp/cab modeling in the Stomp!
  • If you are running into the power amp input (or the effect return) of the Special 212, use the "Pre-amp models" on the stomp... no cabinet or IR models.

When you use the Laney cab, how are you powering it... or do you connect it to the Special 212? 

If it's connected to the Special, then the same bullet points apply. If you connect it differently I'd need more details before making any suggestions. 

 

 

With the Special212 I'm running it into the back, power in I believe it is. So basically the tone knobs do nothing on the amp, just using the speakers. With the Laney I plug the Stomp into the back of my Laney head. Same thing, power in, so no tone knobs work on the Laney. Just volume and gain. I'll give the things you said a try tonight. Thanks! I mean otherwise I've been able to dial in some pretty awesome tones. Metal, rock, blues, cleans. It's just they have that tinny sound to them. I'm usually running an amp and cab seperate or amp and cab together to save a block. I'm completely new to this stuff. I'm not even sure what order to put stuff in on the Stomp. Usually it's just amp-drive pedal-delay or reverb. Is there an optimal order to put things?

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27 minutes ago, uptheirons726 said:

I'm usually running an amp and cab seperate or amp and cab together to save a block.

 

When using the power amp inputs on the back of the Peavey OR the Laney.... you should NOT use any cabinet modeling from the stomp. That's because you already using a cabinet. The cabinet modeling works best when plugging directly into a PA or FRFR. 

 

IMO.... with both the Peavey and the Laney you could get away with either the Amp Models (sans cabinets), or even the Pre-Amp models. Try both version of each to see which one you like more.

 

32 minutes ago, uptheirons726 said:

Is there an optimal order to put things?

 

Can of worms :) 

 

You can do anything you want... whatever it takes to get a good tone.

BUT - sometimes it is best to know the general rules before breaking them. 

 

Generally you put wah, fuzz, overdrive, some modulation, prior to the amp models. 

Generally you put delays, reverbs, stereo effects after the amps/cabs.

 

I cannot stress this enough... that is just the general use, NOT "you must do this" :) 

 

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45 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

When using the power amp inputs on the back of the Peavey OR the Laney.... you should NOT use any cabinet modeling from the stomp. That's because you already using a cabinet. The cabinet modeling works best when plugging directly into a PA or FRFR. 

 

IMO.... with both the Peavey and the Laney you could get away with either the Amp Models (sans cabinets), or even the Pre-Amp models. Try both version of each to see which one you like more.

 

 

Can of worms :) 

 

You can do anything you want... whatever it takes to get a good tone.

BUT - sometimes it is best to know the general rules before breaking them. 

 

Generally you put wah, fuzz, overdrive, some modulation, prior to the amp models. 

Generally you put delays, reverbs, stereo effects after the amps/cabs.

 

I cannot stress this enough... that is just the general use, NOT "you must do this" :) 

 

Gotcha. It's always good to have a general idea though. Thanks for the tips! I will definitely give them a try tonight!

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Thank you guys for the great information. Now I understand why there is a BIG difference between the sound I was hearing from my studio monitors and headphones versus the sound through the PA and amp.  Now I have to work on dialing in the sound on the PA speakers & amp.  The studio monitors I am using are small Mackie CR3s which I use in a very small room.  I primary use the Helix with the studio monitors and headphones.  The PA speakers are only used when I jam at my friend's house.  I'm only an amateur and do not play out.  Never understood the big difference in sound until now.  Thanks again to all who posted replies, really appreciate it.

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Everyone will have an opinion on this and not necessarily in line with each other. 

 

Mine:

- When dialing in tones (especially gainier/medium to high gain tones), you have to do this at close or right at stage/gig volume. 

- I typically run my big volume knob all the way up, or close to it, and back down the main L/R output volume. I just make sure to tell the sound guy "Start with the channel gain a 0 and EQ flat". It sort of emulates a cranked amp better and really gives you the best of all frequencies, as well as, dynamics and punch.

- When going full direct to FOH, keep in mind...PA speakers do not have that same mid range, low mid range guitar friendly punch and "body" that a speaker cab in the room has. Same as when you physically mic a cab and what comes out of the PA half the time is underwhelming. So the biggest headache for me, is really a lot of tweaking and trial and error and really experimenting with EQ, mid range. I find that tones may sound great at home, then turned up at a gig....it may sound buried in the mix and not a lot of that mid range, tube amp girth. So if you're dialing in tones at home and it sounds mid range heavy, chances are in the context of a loud PA or a band mix, it's just right. 

- Another trick on gain tones, is adding the minotaur in front...gain all the way down, tone higher up (then pulling highs down on the amp)..and the level up to taste. That adds so much clarity and dynamic to the tone. 

- Another trick you can try is turning the sag down a bit. Tightens the amp up. 

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