Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Togril

Helix Native, HX Stomp Sonic differences (and Cubase 10.5.+)

Recommended Posts

Hello, this is my first post here , having bought an HX Stomp, that I am very happy with  and the Helix Native that seems to have "issues", Let's start with my setup:

 

Helix Native 1.82 / Helix2.80 compatible

Macbook Pro, Mojave 10.14.6 

Intel Core i5  - 2.4 GHz

RAM: 8 GB

UAD apollo | twin

a small set up but - this still comes in ok for running Helix and Cubase Pro 10.5.5, set up correctly.

 

1. Helix plugin window closes without warning, upon opening in Cubase 10.5.+ 

Utterly frustrating. There is no pattern and no sign of how long the Native plugin will stay open for. Often it's simply Open>Close>Open>Close>Open>Close>Open... then at some point it may actually stay open for enough time to edit something. Totally Random, several installs, cleanups = no real difference. I have read that there seems to be ongoing problems with Cubase and Native, just from the BugFixes alone listed on the updates, well it appears to still have issues.

 

2. Huge difference between the same presets on the Native compared to the Stomp - (unless it's a line 6 preset):

Yes, I realise this is a topic discussed here somewhat. I follow the advise of Line 6 and my Instrument / Host in levels (Native) are around -12db to -8db, and correctly gain staged from the Guitar>UAD.

It's Fizz - a massive High End Boost from somewhere.

I enclose 4 files of short mp3's:

1A. FX Stereo Swirl. HX Native set to "Stomp Emulation".

1B Same default preset from the HX Stomp

You can hear differences - the Helix is Brighter - but it is straight from the the host, no cables, etc. BUT quite liveable. The Stomp is narrower in Soundstage, but the sound is also denser.

So good So far, though would be nice if they were "indistinguishable".

 

WARNING TURN VOLUME DOWN FOR 2A Own Hammer Simple Helix Native (Stomp Emulation).mp3

 

The next 2 files: WARNING TURN VOLUME DOWN FOR 2A Own Hammer Simple Helix Native (Stomp Emulation).mp3

2A Own Hammer Simple Helix Native (Stomp Emulation).mp3

2B Own Hammer Simple Stomp.mp3

are a preset I have made. I have made it on both Stomp and Helix Native discreetly, I have also loaded the Stomp version into the Helix Native. The results are the same:

The difference is obvious. The IR's I use are from 'Own Hammer' & 'Lancaster Audio' , and the path is very simple:   IN (Noise Gate ON)  > Line 6 Bandonk > IR. 

 

Well There you have my long boring 1st Post.  Tell me - Am I expecting too much here? Disregarding the output volume - the inputs are all about the same - certainly close enough for Rock and Roll: about -10Db.. Am I whinging? Am I mistakenly under the impression that the Stomp is seperate sound wise from the Helix and the Native etc? Especially considering how close the inbuilt presets are?

Also I am a double Bassist. Don't shoot my guitar - or me - I am only learning. If you have any thoughts about any of this please respond.

Thanks for reading.

T x.

Reference Files.zip

Edited by Togril
Clarity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're using the same input/dry track, the hardware and Native will sound exactly the same. Using a different interface, all bets are off (although, you should still be able to get them reasonably close). For one thing, it sounds like you're input level into Native may still be too hot. The manual recommends the input level for Native be somewhere between -36 and -12dB. Really, most of the time it means that you want unity gain from your guitar through the interface (no gain or attenuation). The one exception would be if you have particularly hot pickups - you may want to attenuate the input.

 

A better test of Native versus the hardware would be recording a dry track using the Stomp as an interface and then feeding that into the Native. That should sound exactly the same through the same preset.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should have mentioned that the pod is going into the UAD as is the guitar for the native, they are unity as much as I could get. 
I can try what you are suggesting, But Why would I ever want to use the pod as an interface when I have the UAD? That seems like a backward step. I will certainly check the levels again. Managing an interested toddler and an email AND hold a guitar.....

Why is the first tone much closer though?

Thanks for you reply though, I will do what you say. T. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>>EDIT<<

Hi phil_m

OK - I have done as suggested and there is the same problem with Native. 

Here is what I did.

1. Used the HX Stomp as an Interface: Recoded Preset Output and Dry Output at the same time. 

2. Reamped the Dry Signal back into the Stomp - into the preset: Sound = The same as my playing live through the Stomp. Excellent and good to know.

3. Sent the recorded dry signal to a group track with Helix Native = same thin weekly scream sound. Something not right. Controlled the gain staging - just becomes "more Dry".

 

I have no Idea, and am pretty bemused by this, I keep reading "it should be the same" but I don't think that is from experience. I should probably take this up with line 6.  Otherwise they have a lot of money from me, for something that I probably won't be able to use.

Thank you - anyone else want to chip in ? Phil_m? 

Thanks T.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Togril said:

>>EDIT<<

Hi phil_m

OK - I have done as suggested and there is the same problem with Native. 

Here is what I did.

1. Used the HX Stomp as an Interface: Recoded Preset Output and Dry Output at the same time. 

2. Reamped the Dry Signal back into the Stomp - into the preset: Sound = The same as my playing live through the Stomp. Excellent and good to know.

3. Sent the recorded dry signal to a group track with Helix Native = same thin weekly scream sound. Something not right. Controlled the gain staging - just becomes "more Dry".

 

I have no Idea, and am pretty bemused by this, I keep reading "it should be the same" but I don't think that is from experience. I should probably take this up with line 6.  Otherwise they have a lot of money from me, for something that I probably won't be able to use.

Thank you - anyone else want to chip in ? Phil_m? 

Thanks T.

 


I don’t really have experience with Cubase, as I’ve mostly used Reaper, but I’m confused by what you’re saying when you say you, “sent the recorded dry signal to a group track with Helix Native”. I mean, I understand the concept of group tracks, but I don’t see why you’d be using them here, necessarily. I think you’d want to have a single track with the dry wav file on it, and the Native VST initiated on that track.

 

I have done extensive re-amping with Native in Reaper, and it always just works. So it seems to me that there’s something going on with your setup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, phil_m said:


I don’t really have experience with Cubase, as I’ve mostly used Reaper, but I’m confused by what you’re saying when you say you, “sent the recorded dry signal to a group track with Helix Native”. I mean, I understand the concept of group tracks, but I don’t see why you’d be using them here, necessarily. I think you’d want to have a single track with the dry wav file on it, and the Native VST initiated on that track.

 

I have done extensive re-amping with Native in Reaper, and it always just works. So it seems to me that there’s something going on with your setup.

Interesting Simply Put:

  • I had the dry DI from Stomp as a track in the DAW.
  • Rather than run Helix Native on that track - I sent That DI unprocessed track  to another Track which had the Native VST on it. That's all. 
  • I did this as I wanted to have a lot of control over the GAIN of the DI going into the Native VST. 
  • It makes no difference anyway. It is exactly the same. There is certainly no errors in the track set up, you simply have to trust me on that. 

you give me another Idea - I will try it in Logic and ProTools. I don't think it's DAW dependant though. I have Reaper too, still on Evaluation! Thanks for all of this. 

T.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Togril said:

Interesting Simply Put:

  • I had the dry DI from Stomp as a track in the DAW.
  • Rather than run Helix Native on that track - I sent That DI unprocessed track  to another Track which had the Native VST on it. That's all. 
  • I did this as I wanted to have a lot of control over the GAIN of the DI going into the Native VST. 
  • It makes no difference anyway. It is exactly the same. There is certainly no errors in the track set up, you simply have to trust me on that. 

you give me another Idea - I will try it in Logic and ProTools. I don't think it's DAW dependant though. I have Reaper too, still on Evaluation! Thanks for all of this. 

T.

 

 

There was one other thing I thought of before but forgot to mention. You mentioned you’re using IRs. Did you import those IRs into Native? They don’t automatically tag along with the preset, and the IR library in Native is independent from the one in the hardware. Not having the IR loaded would definitely cause there to be an audible difference between the two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

There was one other thing I thought of before but forgot to mention. You mentioned you’re using IRs. Did you import those IRs into Native? They don’t automatically tag along with the preset, and the IR library in Native is independent from the one in the hardware. Not having the IR loaded would definitely cause there to be an audible difference between the two.

 Yes - I think Native's IR system could certainly be improved. Substantially. As could there browsing and tagging in general. I am always careful. Sometimes I Use nadIR by ignite amps, sometimes Native - but I always check (and have found it to be wrong).

WAIT...........OK:

 

I think I have sussed it out:

After you made me think about different apps like Reaper and Logic etc. I FINALLY GOT A VERY CLOSE - (not indistinguishable but..) - CERTAINLY SOUNDS LIKE THE SAME TONES AND BLOCKS:

Using the dry signal and the processed signal for HX Stomp, I bought it all in to logic, when I bought in NATiVE - in the settings for Hardware emulation, I set it to HX STOMP AND MADE SURE I WAS USING THE STOMP PRESET IMPORTED INTO NATIVE - THIS MADE  ALL THE DIFFERENCE. 

I had not been doing that - I had been leaving Native as "Default" . Changing to stomp must change some of the blocks somehow, even though the blocks are the "same" etc

Interestingly there ARE differences, which is still annoying, but the sound similar enough, the different DAW's all have different sound too. I could not do this in Reaper, I simply don't know it, and I found it too hard to read anything in the DAW! 

I was thinking - If I send you the two Audio Files and the preset - would you try it? when/ if you have time of course, not a big deal just plonk plonk play, delete. I would be very grateful. This has really done my head in and would love to hear your interpretation. .

I am hoping it doesn't say this in the manual, as I would be very embarrased.

Thank you very much in helping.

Here are the files if you wish. (Form Mac & clean).

T.

Da Filez.zip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...