Is this a good tone litmus test?

[chancecasey]

Hi everyone!

 

I followed the Jason Sadites part 1 tutorial here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dan5B0Ydfqk&t=735s

 

With the EXACT same settings, my tone was just, eh, muddy in comparison. However, I was playing the YouTube through the Mac and listening to my Helix on my $49 Audio Technica low impedance phones plugged into Helix. I changed the headphones monitor global setting to 1/4", didn't help.  I  kind of fixed it a bit by massive tweaking of the 10-band eq, but that just didn't sit well with me. I suspected it was my headphones not getting driven enough (probably an issue also) or it's just my guitar pickups are "muddy". 

 

To try to eliminate variables, I plugged my helix into my Mac and monitored the processed tone in Ableton. I listened with and without phones to my Mac - playing both Jason's YouTube video and my guitar - same issue. Mine was just, eh, muddy in comparison.

 

If Jason recorded his processed helix output directly to computer - in theory it "should" sound the same as me monitoring it on Ableton. I mean, it's my Mac's DAC and speakers in both cases. At least, I've eliminated the headphones from being a major cause of this issue.

Does anyone agree/disagree with this?

 

I tried adjusting my pickup height, no real change. I am using bridge pickup on full treble. Still not bright enough. Muddy.

 

I also remember I couldn't quite shake the "muddy" tone when plugged into a cheap Bugera amp (the only other thing I've plugged this guitar into).

 

Also, I have one other "kid" guitar which is a real POS china-strat and it was actually a bit brighter - closer.

 

My guitar is a few years old Agile 3010 with Alnico pickups that everyone raves about, but I suspect the issue is my pickups (or pots?).

May be time to go to guitar center. I only need the bridge pickup - cheaper than HD 600's and I can return it if it doesn't fix the issue.

[gunpointmetal]

The thing with the patches is, they really only sound the same if you have the exact same guitar, tuning, string type, touch, etc. If those are Agile stock alnico pickups, they are a little muddy anyways compared to more expensive versions. Agile also uses the cheapest pots/wiring they can find for their instruments, otherwise you'd be paying a lot more (I rock two Agile guitars as my main performance instruments, and they're "pro" models and still needed rewiring to get the most from the EMGs they came with.)

[cruisinon2]

57 minutes ago, chancecasey said:

 

If Jason recorded his processed helix output directly to computer - in theory it "should" sound the same as me monitoring it on Ableton.

 

 

But it won't.... and truthfully, this is never going to happen in a million years. First of all, we're talking about perception here... which is entirely subjective and highly variable from one person to the next. When the ONLY common denominator is the Helix patch, the chances of tonal continuity from one player to another is near zero, for a host of reasons. It's a different guitar, you're a different player, you're in a different listening environment, you're listening through different speakers (or headphones), and you have no clue what sort of volume the guy who created the patch was listening at... the list goes on. The speaker(s) and volume will be the the biggest contributors to any differences you hear. Then there's whatever degree of mangling that YouTube does to uploaded audio... there's likely a ton of compression.

 

Since your main complaint is a muddy sound, it's a safe bet that you're listening at a higher volume than he was. At higher levels, both lows and highs become more prominent... its just how our ears work.

 

Bottom line is this: other people's patches will always have something that needs tweaking to be useful to you, or to sound similar to something that you heard in a YouTube video... and sometimes they might require extensive modification. Drag and drop instant continuity doesn't exist. Watching videos like that can be very useful for developing an approach to setting up your own sounds, but a 1:1 reproduction of a particular patch guarantees nothing in terms of what the final product will actually sound like on your end. There are simply too many variables.

[chancecasey]

cruisinon2,

 

The goal/theory was to isolate the differences to just the guitar/player. If Jason plugged his helix into his Mac to record as did I, then it's the same ADC chain. I played both his and my sounds back through my Mac - same DAC and speaker chain.

 

We'll see. The choices are overwhelming.  Thinking about picking up whatever Guitar Center has in stock just because I don't want to wait and in the mood to tweak.

Seems like the "Slash" Seymore Duncans are the best rated passive humuckers they have at the store. Anyone play with these?

[cruisinon2]

10 minutes ago, chancecasey said:

cruisinon2,

 

The goal/theory was to isolate the differences to just the guitar/player. If Jason plugged his helix into his Mac to record as did I, then it's the same ADC chain. I played both his and my sounds back through my Mac - same DAC and speaker chain.

 

We'll see. The choices are overwhelming.  Thinking about picking up whatever Guitar Center has in stock just because I don't want to wait and in the mood to tweak.

Seems like the "Slash" Seymore Duncans are the best rated passive humuckers they have at the store. Anyone play with these?

 

This issue is nothing new, and guys have been searching for a one size fits all solution to the "why doesn't so-and -so's patch sound the same for me?" question since Customtone and YouTube tutorials reared their ugly heads... trouble is, there ain't one. And swapping out pickups won't be a magic bullet either. It's never ONE thing, it's a combination of factors.... and even things that might seem like apples to apples comparisons, aren't. And in this case it'll still be a different guitar, in different hands, with a new set of pickups... yet another variable.

 

Whether you're in the mood or not, tweaking the patch itself is inevitable.

[rvroberts]

To your first question - "Does anyone agree/disagree with this?"

Not totally.  Jason created a sound - he used some video creation software (premiere?) to make the video.

He uploaded that to YouTube - YouTube also does stuff to the audio.

So firstly you'd have to ask Jason, how reasonably the YouTube video represents the sound he heard.

I'd think the answer would be "close enough" - but almost certainly not exactly.

So you already won't get exactly the same sound out of the same settings even if all the other variables were exactly the same.

And that's a big list of variables - there are what you listen through. There are any global settings he or you might use - there are things like the levels of input (from your guitar and into your amp or headphones) and outputs.  (Driving the amp just right will have a substantial effect - a reason why metering on the Helix would make this kind of matching a bit more realistic). There is the Fletcher Munsen stuff.  There is the guitar cable, the guitar and the thing that seems to be concerning you the most, the pickups.

And when it comes to pickups - there are volume pot values, caps, pickup height and angle - it goes on and on.

I'm playing with the same variables right now trying to decide to change pickups or not in a PRS - overall it's a bit muddy (what sin!) - but I come from Strats, and I'm finding Humbuckers overall great for classic rock but not clean enough for me sometimes - (but I digress!)

The point is that it's very hard to compare these things - yep - Pickups might be it - but be careful of opinions - what is one person's warm and vintage is someone else's mud!

[chancecasey]

Yes, I expected to have to tweak the Helix - that was one of the sentiments I read about it vs. Fractal in the user reviews before purchasing. Not sure how that's possible.

 

I have no problem tweaking and playing (and learning) with the Helix. I'm a tinkerer, and tinkering with it is half the reason I bought it.

 

Just a data point - I put the Seymore Duncan humbuckers in last night, SH2 / Jazz on neck and SH4 JB on bridge, and, well, it was NOT a night and day difference. I guess this batch of Agile guitars did not have such crappy PUPs after all. There was a bit more, I dunno, "clarity" and character - but still very, I guess what they call "warm" vs. "bright". I would almost say muddy still. I know LP guitars and humbuckers are supposed to be more warm by nature but jeez, quite the difference from the Strat of my youth.

 

I did not change out the pots and toggle switch yet - however I am doubtful those are doing anything too bad to the tone since I have it set at no treble cut. I do plan to do that, however, and will likely put in a new toggle or push/pull pots to access the single coils in them  (they are 4-conductor) for more options. Hoping for something brighter.  I know a lot of people would say just get a Strat but I've had a Strat, don't want a second guitar to manage right now, and frankly I'm finding this tone experimentation fun!

 

 

[codamedia]

18 hours ago, chancecasey said:

Yes, I expected to have to tweak the Helix - that was one of the sentiments I read about it vs. Fractal in the user reviews before purchasing. Not sure how that's possible.

 

Is this meant to suggest the Fractal "doesn't" need to be tweaked? 

The internet never disappoints with misinformation.  

[gunpointmetal]

You could always try sticking a tilt EQ at the front of the chain to thin out/brighten up the darker sound of your guitar. Or if those pickups can be split, throw a push/pull pot on when you switch out the electronics to get a genuine single coil tone. Any modeler is going to need to be tweaked/set for your guitar, playing style, listening environment, including the almighty Fractal gear. The only way to avoid it would be to have input and playback sensing technology that automatically adjusts your input and output to match the above variables.

[chancecasey]

I guess I posted this question way too soon. Now that I have taken the time to read through some content on this site I realize just how deep the deep end is, and how users model for different guitars, pickups, etc.

 

For now, I went through all the factory presets and copied over the ones to my user1 setlist that sounded good right out of the bag (there were a LOT!).  I'll use those for starting points to tweak I guess. I was pleasantly surprised that on most of the clean patches, my new Jazz neck pickup sounded better than the bridge JB pickup - sometimes by a lot. Cleaner, clearer, with more detail, yet still somewhat "neck" sounding.  Hard to describe in words. I guess I need to learn "tone lingo" now if there is such a thing..  I'll code the pickup that sounds best in the name of the patch, in addition to single coil once I wire that option in.

 

So, is it really worth paying money for presets then, in your opinion?

 

I understand IRs can make a difference also - but should I even bother with them before I've explored all the options in the preset? Are there any universal sort of "this one makes almost everything sound better than the "X" amp/cab combo it replaces"?  I think I know the answer, but have to ask...   :-)

 

 

[gunpointmetal]

6 minutes ago, chancecasey said:

So, is it really worth paying money for presets then, in your opinion?

No, I don't think so personally. The information you can glean from someone else's patches is freely available on YouTube or this forum, or the Helix FB group.

8 minutes ago, chancecasey said:

I understand IRs can make a difference also - but should I even bother with them before I've explored all the options in the preset? Are there any universal sort of "this one makes almost everything sound better than the "X" amp/cab combo it replaces"?  I think I know the answer, but have to ask...   :-)

I think at this stage, you're going to be best served by learning the ins and outs of setting up patches before you jump into IRs. IMO my third-party impulse responses do sound better than the stock cabs, but they're an entire rabbit hole of speaker/cabinet/mic placement options that going in blind would not be helpful, and probably be more discouraging than anything until you're more comfortable navigating the device. It helps a lot to know what sounds you like as far as cabs/mics on recordings, as well. 

[amsdenj]

Check the impedance setting for the patch. Guitar pickups are very sensitive to impedance. Low Z settings can result in a very dull tone. I leave mine at 1M all the time.

[chancecasey]

Thanks! I changed that a bit before my HX Edit decided to stop talking to my Helix for some reason. They were all set to "auto" and I did not notice a big difference changing it to 1M. 500k and lower sounded more muddy.  I'll try more patches when I get the HX Edit working again.

 

Just discovered this -  I didn't even know you could just play a blank preset and it will, I guess, be the Helix's "no color" amp of the guitar. Not sure why I didn't try that before, but it is interesting to see how the different pickups sound on Helix's "blank" setting.

 

One other interesting tidbit - I think the caps in the tone knobs of my guitar are 47's not 22's or whatever "should" be there for some reason. I ordered the smaller orange drop ones and will check out how those sound.

[jbuhajla]

Just my $0.02...

 

Just plug in your guitar, drop in an amp/cab model that you like the sound of, drop in a delay and/or a reverb after that which you like the sound of. If the end result is a tone that you like, then play your guitar. You are spending a lot of time and money trying to sound exactly like someone else on a Youtube video. You are missing the fun in being a guitar player.